At least 220 dead, 450 hurt in stampede during Hajj outside Mecca

originally posted by: UnBreakable

originally posted by: maddy21

originally posted by: UnBreakable

originally posted by: maddy21
a reply to: UnBreakable

It has nothing to do with Culture, Blame the authorities for the lack of proper crowd management rather than blaming the Victims of the stampede. Weather it is the Americans, Europeans, Chinese, etc.. everyone is prone to Panic. All it takes is a few idiots to start a stampede and there is plenty of them in every part of the world.

Yep, it's all the authorities fault. To hell with personal responsibility. We can't expect tens of thousands of people to think reasonably, as they are influenced by "few idiots". So a "few idiots" cause the death of a few hundred people. Hmmm.

Right, so are you claiming each and everyone who died, Died due to lack of "personal responsibility" ? If you were part of a stampede what will you do with that "personal responsibility" ? Personal responsibility will be thrown out of the window in such situations. Its every man for himself.

Back in Dec 31 2014 36 people died due to stampede in Shenghai China, so i assume people over there lack culture as superior to Americans ? Please take you superior culture nonsense to someone Naive enough to believe it...

First off, if you bothered to read my initial reply, I never claimed we had the "superior" culture. I alluded to the fact we have a gun culture which in itself causes numerous unnecessary deaths. Secondly, you are falsely inferring that I said the victims lacked "personal responsibility" and are responsible for their own deaths, which I'm not. I am referring to those that caused the deaths by being influenced by a "few idiots" instead of using common sense and avoid trampling a fellow human being.

NO, you just started giving the perception that those folks who died in the stampede did not have a culture as good as the Americans and not to mention equated them to animals. Glad you change your stance now, since i have been saying from the very beginning that few people are more than enough to cause a Stampede. The fact that they don't have "personal responsibility" is obvious. And again stupid people exist everywhere. This can happen in any part of the world, that includes America given the right conditions.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: Vasa Croe

It's not mandatory if you can't afford it or are otherwise unable to travel.

It's a recommendation more than an obligation for the most part.

With that many people going it seems as if they think it IS mandatory. Either way, it just seems like an unnecessary risk if it is just a recommendation.

Maybe they should make attendees register prior and they can only go once, or every 10 years or something, though I doubt that idea would go over well. But they could then decide to go when they are young adults and then later in life take their children or something. Or allow everyone to go 4 times in life or something of the sort.

Just brainstorming ideas. Unless they change something, this will get worse each time it happens because ultimately the number of people going will get larger each time.

Not sure what to think about this, but I do have a couple of observations. It is a tragic situation, no doubt. The most tragic part about these types of events is, it most often women, children, the elderly and the weak who are killed, yet the ones who trigger events such as these are usually at the opposite end of the spectrum (i.e. able bodied young men).

Just the other day (on another thread here) we were discussing the upcoming Hajj. I thought to myself then, 'I wonder how many people will die this year'. I honestly thought that. It's a terrible thought, I know, but unfortunately it is both a reality and it is fairly predictable. When things are predictable loss of human life as a result is preventable.

Consequently, this notion leads one to somewhat of a conclusion about the culture of the people participating in an event like this. And before anyone reads something into this conclusion allow me to clarify. To be clear, it would seem many of the participants of the Hajj are so consumed with religious zeal that they place the value of success on their journey above the value of human life. In the big picture (i.e. survival of the human race) this is not a healthy value set.

Secondly, I personally know a number of people who have either been on the Hajj, or were contemplating participating in the pilgrimage. For many it is a once-in-a-lifetime event, meaning many Muslims know they will only do it once. Failure to make the (whole) pilgrimage is a serious loss of "face" socially. In a culture which places 'face' over just about everything else this is a serious failure. However, in the same breath it is a brutal and filthy experience. And it is for this reason many hesitate. In talking to one very cultured colleague of mine in Malaysia he indicated the pilgrimage was filthy beyond comprehension with people urinating and defecating everywhere, there was disease everywhere, refuse and rotting garbage abounded. In his words it was "absolutely disgusting".

He knew this before going, as do most. The physical exertion aspects of the Hajj are not all that extreme, but the hardships certainly are. Chief among these is the lack of water in the blazing sun. It is my understanding this is one area the regional authorities have tried to improve in recent years. Still, controlling 2m people is not something which can be done with much precision, and any authority has to rely somewhat on the notion people will behave in a somewhat civilized manner. And, I guess that's my point here; when 2m people act in an uncivilized manner completely consumed by religious ferver...717 people (in this case) die. Worse, 717 is likely not the final toll.

While the authorities may bear some responsibility, it is my belief that the culture as a whole needs to step back and take stock of tragedies such as these. No, 717 people is not even 1% of the total participants, regardless it is a huge loss of human life...for what? Was it that important? Was it worth your life, or the life of someone else? Was it worth the lives of 717 people?

When the answer to this question is "yes" it is my opinion there is something wrong.

Another thought related to my above post...

If saving face is so important at an individual level, one would think the same would be equally important, if not more so, at a cultural level. Events such as the one currently unfolding in Mecca are things the world outside of Islam use to form their opinions (right or wrong). Terrorism comes quickly to mind here as well, as does any act which results in the loss of human life in the name of religion.

World acceptance is based on how a certain culture treats its people and the people of other cultures. In other words, it is based on the outside world's perception of the value a culture places on human life. When the value of human life diminishes and shifts to being a means to an end, a mere conduit to another form of life (or whatever), then the world acceptance of that culture diminishes. Further, when the response to this world view is one of damnation and threats of domination through sheer numbers, the outside world perception problem is only compounded (negatively). I call this 'absolutism', and frankly I don't believe it works.

a reply to: Sublimecraft

Yeah, Sublimecraft, I agree - this is something I just don't understand. This keeps happening...and surely the Saudi government could find ways of preventing it.

I know they are inundated with pilgrims...and I know that every Muslim aspires to doing this at least once in their lifetime...but couldn't they limit the number each year. Issue tickets and control the crowd?

It just seems as if they expect it, shrug their collective shoulders and call out the ambulances.

(And yeah, I know that it's believed if you die during Pilgrimage you'll go straight to Paradise...but it just seems so wrong to let this keep happening.)

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

great post man. Many great points. I would like to see one of our Muslim members to address this...especially Charlie who seems to think that families of the dead should take some comfort from all this...


this...

In talking to one very cultured colleague of mine in Malaysia he indicated the pilgrimage was filthy beyond comprehension with people urinating and defecating everywhere, there was disease everywhere, refuse and rotting garbage abounded. In his words it was "absolutely disgusting".

...is something I wasn't even contemplating.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk

Consequently, this notion leads one to somewhat of a conclusion about the culture of the people participating in an event like this. And before anyone reads something into this conclusion allow me to clarify. To be clear, it would seem many of the participants of the Hajj are so consumed with religious zeal that they place the value of success on their journey above the value of human life. In the big picture (i.e. survival of the human race) this is not a healthy value set.

This is what I was trying to say in my previous posts but you say much more succinctly. That's what I was trying to infer about the cultural difference, that there is a difference thresh hold re: the value of human life.

originally posted by: Jansy
a reply to: Sublimecraft

(And yeah, I know that it's believed if you die during Pilgrimage you'll go straight to Paradise...but it just seems so wrong to let this keep happening.)

But it will happen again next year no doubt. Book it.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

agreed!

Stoning Gays? Meh its their culture

Stoning women? meh its their culture

Women cant drive or do certain things? meh its their culture

Rape is accepted? Meh its their culture

Raping young boys is accepted, and even has its own terminology? Meh its their culture

CHRISTIANS ARE BAD!

At what point does the hypocrisy stop?

Such a tragedy!

I have nothing much to add except that this IS a conspiracy site and I had remembered reading
a threat from ISIS maybe June or so of last year...
Anyway, this article:
Mint Press

touches on ISIS and their ever increasing activity.

Could it have been ISIS fanatics who "started" the stampede?
I realize that THIS (stampede and deaths) happen often with the pilgrimage however with the current events in the world would it really surprise us?

Also, in the article, it mentions the backlash from Muslims worldwide but do we really think that ISIS is concerned with backlash...from anyone...?

originally posted by: TNMockingbird

Also, in the article, it mentions the backlash from Muslims worldwide but do we really think that ISIS is concerned with backlash...from anyone...?

No, these stampedes have happened way back before ISIS came along. SA authorities have long encountered these incidents and have done absolutely nothing to rectify it.

As a Liverpool fan, with detailed knowledge of Hillsborough, and as someone who has worked in managing large events, I can say that keeping control of a large crowd is like trying to hold water in your hands, and responding to incidents like this would be a nightmare to deal with, and I have nothing but sympathy for the organisers and the relatives of the deceased. It is a horrible way to go.

For all the bigoted judgemental people out there, who simply can't resist having a go and try and dismiss a culture - go back and look at some Black Friday videos, born out of sheer capitalist insanity and greed.
blackfridaydeathcount.com...

Not the same scale, but people have been trampled to death during them.

a reply to: neformore

To be honest, Black Friday stampedes usually draw the same comments. Not really a good argument to use.

originally posted by: Baldryck
a reply to: neformore

To be honest, Black Friday stampedes usually draw the same comments. Not really a good argument to use.

But do hundreds of people get trampled to death during Black Friday stampedes?

I find some of the posts so far on this thread very ignorant and disrespectful to those who have died and their customs. What's worse is that i should be shocked by this, sadly the maturity and civility of the ATS membership over the last year or so has became so watered down that I now expect these kind of childish posts.

Lets pretend for a moment that the head line was "700 dead after stampede after Justin Bieber concert at Madison Square Gardens".

Or to make it even more interesting "Hundreds dead in Washington as faithful caught in stampede as they race to see the pope".

How different would the opening comments be in this thread be?

This is a horrible tragedy regardless of where it happened, lets remember that its 700 people at least that have been killed in what should have been a happy and peaceful event.

My thoughts and prayers to all those affected.

a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

I was referring to the general atmosphere that's permeating this site if you failed to notice my statement about reading comments on other recent threads.

And a lot of the negativity is geared towards muslims, especially ME muslims, in case you failed to take notice of that as well.

Anyway to the OP, yes, I'd echo OtherSideOfTheCoin's sentiments.

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

I didn't say they should...

I said they can.
Performing Hajj is a great honour among Muslims, sort of like the ultimate on a bucket list.

Family can take solace in the fact that their loved ones managed to partake in what is an important part of the culture.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Lets pretend for a moment that the head line was "700 dead after stampede after Justin Bieber concert at Madison Square Gardens".

Or to make it even more interesting "Hundreds dead in Washington as faithful caught in stampede as they race to see the pope".

once these happen...you come to us...ok.

a reply to: neformore

bu is it the same....correct me if I'm wrong...because I certainly don't know all the details...but wasn't Hillsborough stampede initiated due to stand collapsing ?

originally posted by: MarioOnTheFly
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Lets pretend for a moment that the head line was "700 dead after stampede after Justin Bieber concert at Madison Square Gardens".

Or to make it even more interesting "Hundreds dead in Washington as faithful caught in stampede as they race to see the pope".

once these happen...you come to us...ok.

Yep, that was my point in my initial reply. Here in Philly they expect a crowd of 1.5 mil to see the Pope on the Parkway this weekend. I guaranty no one will get trampled to death from stampeding.