Abortion and Responsibilties That Follow

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
a reply to: beezzer

I took the "morning after" pill once because a condom broke on my partner.

Am I a murderer?

I don't know.

Did you do something that destroyed a life?

I don't know. I took the pill before any pregnancy test. Basically the next day. So I'm a maybe murderer in your eyes?

To be honest?

I don't know.

I have friends who have had abortions. And I feel so sorry for them. I really do. I'm sorry they never knew that life could exist separately within them. I pity their loss and heartache.

They never got the joy of watching a birth. Of helping a child grow.

Because everything else in life pales in comparrison.

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: introvert

So you don't see the unborn as having any rights to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness?

Yes, absolutely I do. But this issue is not as simple as that.

There are cases in which an abortion may be the best thing to do. If a child has a serious health problem and will live pain and misery, wouldn't it be best to save that child from a life of cruel and unusual punishment?

Do we not find it acceptable to "pull the plug" on people when they have certain health problems in which they cannot survive without extensive equipment and machinery? In fact, in many cases do we not believe that to be the moral and right thing to do to save them from excess misery?

What makes that any different than aborting a child that would live under the same circumstances?

a reply to: beezzer

how could you be friends with someone who had an abortion?
youre a sick, sick person
obviously

i mean youre telling people who think abortion is ok that they are murderers and agree with slavery
then you befriend some of those same people

youre weird

originally posted by: beezzer

Why ask pro-lifers to lead by example?

What's wrong with the pro-murder crowd?

Unless that is their solution and they're fine with it.

Why not?

Think about everything you just said. Aside from the labeling

And I mean really think about it. Which group do you believe holds children closer to their hearts, so shouldn't this group be more apt to lead by example?

a reply to: introvert

one major difference is the vegetable has been alive and still is(quality of it is a different argument)

a fetus is not alive and has never been

originally posted by: Mugly

originally posted by: EternalSolace
a reply to: Mugly

The only way to say that it's not murder is to deny that a fetus is a life.

That's what this whole argument boils down to. Does a fetus constitute life? If not, when does a fetus transition into life?

i can only answer that for myself.
i dont have it pinned down to the day that i can actually call it a life.

i know damn sure i dont consider it life on day 1.

That's why I'm perfectly okay with Plan-B as a contraceptive too. It stops the fertilization of the egg and/or prevents or delays ovulation. Further, within three days it's around 90% effective at preventing pregnancy.

I'm all for abstinence and being ready to face the potential consequences of sex. But like Krazyshot said, it's impossible to expect that. At least with plan-B, one stands a good chance of eliminating the need for an abortion at all.

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
a reply to: beezzer

I took the "morning after" pill once because a condom broke on my partner.

Am I a murderer?

No, you're not. The "morning after" pill prevents the fertilization of the egg.

originally posted by: Realtruth

originally posted by: beezzer

Why ask pro-lifers to lead by example?

What's wrong with the pro-murder crowd?

Unless that is their solution and they're fine with it.

Why not?

Think about everything you just said. Aside from the labeling

And I mean really think about it. Which group do you believe holds children closer to their hearts, so shouldn't this group be more apt to lead by example?

MAny of us already lead by example.

Many of us do adopt.

But our voices get drowned out by your crowd who offer no other solution other than death.

originally posted by: Mugly
a reply to: introvert

one major difference is the vegetable has been alive and still is(quality of it is a different argument)

a fetus is not alive and has never been

I suppose the definition of "alive" could be debated, but I stand by what I said.

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

That is where we disagree. Parents should absolutely have to give consent. If that young girl has been raped, she needs much more help then just an abortion.

originally posted by: EternalSolace

The "morning after" pill prevents the fertilization of the egg.

It can. If the egg is already fertilized it also prevents the embryo - a living human - from attaching to the uterine wall.

It is an abortifacient.

It causes abortions.

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
a reply to: beezzer

I took the "morning after" pill once because a condom broke on my partner.

Am I a murderer?

I don't know.

Did you do something that destroyed a life?

I don't know. I took the pill before any pregnancy test. Basically the next day. So I'm a maybe murderer in your eyes?

To be honest?

I don't know.

I have friends who have had abortions. And I feel so sorry for them. I really do. I'm sorry they never knew that life could exist separately within them. I pity their loss and heartache.

They never got the joy of watching a birth. Of helping a child grow.

Because everything else in life pales in comparrison.

I respect you. Even despite what you've said to me in this thread I still respect you. Because you're one of the smartest damn bunnies on the planet, and you're not afraid to say what you really think.

But this is something we won't agree on. I would never willingly abort my own baby. I wouldn't be able to handle it emotionally. But I can't force other people to follow my own beliefs on life and abortion. Free will, and all that. For me, life begins at the heartbeat. Once that begins, you've got a little person in you. I wouldn't even abort before that, personally. But I can't shake my moral stick at someone who makes the choice to have an abortion. I can disagree with them. And quite frankly if they're using abortions as a method of birth control I'd re-evaluate my friendship with that person and maybe decide we're probably not compatible.

But I can't force my own morals on other people. I don't have on planning children of my own. And don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to have my own children. I'm sure it's a magical experience. But there are so many kids out there that need a home, that I just can't justify my own selfish desires for my own child, when someone out there ALREADY can come into my home and live a good, normal life.

So yes, if abortion were illegal it wouldn't affect my life in the slightest. And I would adopt, as I had already planned to. I know you see abortion as disgusting and wrong on a primal level and in some ways I agree with sentiment. However, I cannot in good faith force my own sentiments onto others. That is why I am Pro-Choice. I don't agree with it, but I have neither the cosmic nor moral authority to tell them it's illegal.

a reply to: Seamrog

nope

an unborn or unhatched offspring in the process of development

dictionary.reference.com...

the young of a viviparous animal, especially of a mammal, in the early stages of development within the womb, in humans up to the end of the second month

www.webmd.com...

It may prevent or delay ovulation.
It may interfere with fertilization of an egg.

This is birth control that can prevent pregnancy after unprotected sex

prevent. not terminate

a reply to: retiredTxn
to me that would be a major health issue. I mean are there any health conditions that might make and IUD unsafe, and if there are, do the schools consult with the child's doctor to ensure there won't be any problems? and well are the parents presented with a list of side effects and symptoms that they might want to look out for so they could detect any problems associated with the things?
I am sorry but I do believe that the law does make the health of a child that young the responsibility of the parents. but, if they start going around and doing things like this behind the parents backs, without their consent, well, if things blow up, how can they then say that it's the responsibility of the parents?

originally posted by: Watcher777
a reply to: ScientificRailgun

That is where we disagree. Parents should absolutely have to give consent. If that young girl has been raped, she needs much more help then just an abortion.

How does the pro-murder crowd rationalize statutory rape with that absurd logic?

A 14 year old legally cannot give consent to a 40 year old adult for sex.

BUT

A 14 year old CAN give consent to Kurt Gosnell to butcher both her and the child within her?

It is madness, and it is wrapped in the culture of Death.

These planned parenthood death harpies scream and claw for this 'right.'

Wonder why?

Not!

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

Very rarely have I ever seen anyone who has had children support abortion.

Society makes moral decisions every day that we all have to live with.

It is wrong to arbitrarily walk up to a stranger and kill them.

Yet it is okay to walk into an abortion clinic and kill the unborn life inside.

If I had been polite and nice, no-one would hhave listened to me.

Sometimes being an obnoxious asshole helps in getting a point across. It eliminates most of the arrogant smugness that so many on the pro-death side maintain.

a reply to: Seamrog

i dont agree with a 14 year old getting an iud without parental consent
but

an implanted iud means you have been butchered?
hmmm

a reply to: Seamrog

Sexual consent laws are a topic for another thread.

In terms of abortions, it's "her body, her choice" in my book. Do I agree with people having abortions? Not really. But it's not MY place to tell people what they can and can't do with their own body.

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Realtruth

Why do only those who are against abortion have to give? Why are you demanding that others pick up the slack for someone else's problem?

I think that you have a point here. If we were to make abortion illegal than everyone, the society itself, should pick up the slack, not just those who disagree with abortion.

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Realtruth
Why are you trying to justify murder?

This is the same thing as slavery, in my humble opinion.

You are condemning a human life to death based on another persons wishes. The unborn child has no rights. It's very life is at the whim of the mother.

Yet you demand that others take responsibility because she refuses to do so.

Well this is standing a bit naked in this particular venue, ATS tends to have more than a few very vocal pro-life advocates but I had an abortion when I was 15. If I had it to do over, I think I would have fought a bit harder and given the child up for adoption. That is an option. In the U.S. there are lots and lots (and lots) of families who would like to adopt an a infant. I do think that carrying a child, giving birth and giving it up is harder. It just is. That's a lot to ask of anyone let alone an adolescent, but I would have gone that way in hindsight.

I did not want to bring a child into the world that I was completely incapable of caring for. My family was unwilling, and frankly not equipped to help raise that child. I would have simply been perpetuating a cycle of brutal poverty. If I had stayed in that (very small and rural) community with my family the child would have also been subject to stigma and abuse. It is the truth. I would have needed their support to survive as a 15 year old mother but that support would have been brutal.

There was a family consensus, which included extended family (grandparents and aunts and uncles) and they decided that the best choice was an abortion. I think that part of that choice was to avoid stigma, many family members were well-to-do even if my folks weren't. To make matters worse, the father was 20 years old and from a very prominent family in the community and this would have had an enormous impact on the child, on me and on my family. If I had carried the child to term and given it up for adoption then I would have been hauling around a big belly that was a veritable scarlet letter for me (okay fair enough) and for the rest of my family. I was leaning toward adoption but in the end for me to choose that would have had me more or less disowned.

Like I said though, if I could go back I would do it differently. Abortion is morally wrong. However, if adoption wasn't an option I think that abortion is a better moral choice than to bring a life into the world that will have little chance of a fulfilling or even peaceful existence. I took a life, but to simply say that I chose that out of convenience is overly simplistic.

I was not raped when I got pregnant. I made a choice to have sex. There were repercussions. I know that you and many others see it as very simple, but I disagree. I don't think that many women make that choice flippantly, and whether you believe it or not, these women are often not putting themselves first when they weigh that choice. Also, more often than not, there is an element of desperation to it.

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Realtruth

How is that fricking fair?

It's not fair, but there is plenty about life that isn't fair. Bringing a child into the world where the deck is stacked against them isn't fair either. I think that many women choose to have an abortion because life has handed them a whole truck load of "not fair" and bringing a child into that situation is irresponsible. People will always have sex. These things will happen. I understand why women choose to have an abortion.

originally posted by: beezzerIt places no responsibility on the actual person that should be responsible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What do you mean THE person that should be responsible? What about the father? Isn't he responsible too? The thing is, society doesn't hold father's as accountable as mothers, which is a large part of why abortion is socially necessary. You are illustrating that with your language there. In my case, it would have taken a court battle and a test to prove he was the father. Not to mention that in order to take it to court the age discrepancy would have meant that the guy got a statutory rape charge as well. The community would have sided with him, and I would have ostracized and villianized. I would have been just a stupid whore ruining this nice young man's life, and you can bet that the stigma would have been carried over to that child. I didn't want that for any child of mine. I was already a pariah in that community because of rumors (which turned out to be true) of my own illicit beginnings and it would have been even worse for any child I brought into that situation at that time. If you've never been in that situation you have no idea just how horrific it can be to be psychologically and even physically abused with no recourse because you don't matter. I did not want that for any child of mine.

If I had chosen to adopt the child out, carrying my belly around for people to gawk at and talk about that stigma would have been carried over to my family that would have had lasting social and even economic repercussions. Either way, it would have been a colossal mess that affected everyone else associated with me badly. It. Wasn't. Just. Me that I was thinking of. Far from it. With an abortion, even if (and they did) the community found out about it would minimize the muck and damage to (mostly) just me. I made a mistake, I got pregnant, and yes I took a life which I saw at the time as the best solution that would hurt the fewest people.

Painting all women who choose to have an abortion as selfish and irresponsible (which is what you are doing, deny it all you want), is myopic, overly simplistic, untrue and frankly contributing to the stigma that makes abortion socially necessary.

So, mine is just one story, but in my experience and talking to others, many women who choose to have an abortion don't do it because it is what would be easiest for them. Abortion is firmly in the social sphere and it is the complexities of the social dynamics that are precisely what many women weigh when deciding what is "responsible" if they find themselves unexpectedly pregnant. It is commendable that you value life so much. In my case, I valued other lives more than the unborn that I carried. In hindsight, I shouldn't have, they weren't worth it, but it was not a selfish choice, nor was it a choice of convenience for me.

originally posted by: Mugly

nope


prevent. not terminate

You can dance a dark path around semantics all you want, but you are living proof that from the moment of conception, and embryo is a distinct, individual human LIFE.

I find it a particularly cold evil that attempts to draw a line at when 'life begins,' when 7 billion walking examples are right in front of your narrow eyes.