Homosexuality Is Not A Choice

originally posted by: Rikku
is it ok to eat chicken and eggs at the same time?+

Only in a Omelet or Burrito

originally posted by: Helious
Homosexuality is a choice because everything in life is a choice.

and then you emediately say afterwards that....

originally posted by: Helious
People may be pre disposed to liking the same sex, opposite sex, children or animals, who knows. The choice to act on those presumed pre dispositions is a choice that people make willingly.

You just single-handedly disproved your first notion by your second notion. Do you not see what you are doing?

What is it that you are claiming that is so obvious and factual? You say "everything is a choice in life... like homosexuality" and then you also say that "homosexuality is a predisposed trait".

originally posted by: Helious
if you argue that homosexuality is not a choice then you must also accept the idea that people who are sexually attracted to children also do not have a choice.

Uh, yeah, that is exactly what we are arguing. No one chooses what they are and are not attracted to.

originally posted by: Helious
The only choice then becomes, acting or not acting based on natural pre disposition, assuming of course it exists which it obviously does because I didn't choose to be attracted to women, I just am yet ultimately, I made the decision to have sexual relations with women and choose one as my wife.

Do you not read what you write? You have just again canceled out your original argument. We all know this. Why are you even here?

originally posted by: Helious
I could of made other choices and thats the whole point.

The point is completely self-evident therefore completely impotent to even bring it up in the first place. No one is arguing that an individual cannot choose to act on their natural lusts because it has some sort of cancellation of will. The argument is that no one can choose what they are attracted to to begin with.

I don't know if you realize this or not, but you are arguing against the very same people you actually agree with...

a reply to: Ghost147

Are you so entrenched in your line of thinking that you fail to see the basic and obvious logic of my argument? People are NOT what they feel, people are NOT what they think. People ARE only, no more and no less a product of the choices they make. Being predisposed to liking the same sex does not make a person homosexual as it pertains to the world.

Choosing to have sexual or emotional relationships with a member of their same sex and adopting that lifestyle through free will and choice is what makes a person homosexual. The same can be said for heterosexuals, pedophiles or any other person who "doesn't have a choice" through predisposition to liking certain things.

Nothing that happens in your own mind is of any consequence to the rest of the word, any other person or society at large. The only thing that matters and what definitively defines you as a person are the choices you make.

Your entire last post is nonsensical and lacking any merit in my humble opinion. I'm not arguing philosophical hyperbole, I'm merely stating facts and those facts don't seem to fit your reality and so, you reject them. I understand that and respect your opinions but in the end it doesn't change the fact that what I have stated is true.

a reply to: Helious

I don't think anyone understands your "logic" because it completely cancels itself out.

Actions do not determine a persons sexual orientation, biology does that. Just because a gay man has never had sex with another man does not make him straight, nor does it make him Asexual. The sole definition for Homosexuality is a romantic attraction, sexual attraction between members of the same sex or gender. ( "Sexual orientation, homosexuality and bisexuality". American Psychological Association. Archived from the original on August 8, 2013. Retrieved August 10, 2013.) There is no action needed in order to be a Homosexual. Choice has nothing to do with it, and you yourself even agreed to that in the post before your most recent one.

The same goes for A heterosexual individual. They don't "Become heterosexual" once they act on their urges. They were heterosexual to begin with. The same goes for any sexual orientation.

Of course, instead of just spouting out nonsense like you have been, you're more than free to actually source your "obvious and factual" information. Feel free to show me that the general scientific community concludes that "to be a homosexual you must act flamboyant and live the lifestyle".

a reply to: Ghost147

Actions do not determine a persons sexual orientation, biology does that. Just because a gay man has never had sex with another man does not make him straight, nor does it make him Asexual

Yes, actions do determine a persons sexual orientation. As I have already stated, personal feelings make you nothing to anyone else. In order to be something, you must be perceived to be that by an observer. You could imagine yourself an astronaut with your eyes closed for a month straight, it will never make you one until somebody observes you going into space.

Biology makes you nothing but alive and conscious. The person you are and what you are labeled are a direct result of the choices you make in life. If you view yourself as homosexual before you make the choice to be homosexual, that is only happening in your own mind and only matters to you alone, it makes you nothing until you make the choice to become that to observers.

originally posted by: Helious
Yes, actions do determine a persons sexual orientation.

Again, you're free to give us some evidence to back your claims just as I have.

originally posted by: Helious
As I have already stated, personal feelings make you nothing to anyone else. In order to be something, you must be perceived to be that by an observer. You could imagine yourself an astronaut with your eyes closed for a month straight, it will never make you one until somebody observes you going into space.

This must be one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on ATS.

I'm still not totally convinced you're not just trolling the thread.

So if a person has feelings for the same gender as themselves. They dress completely "normal" and act "normal". They masturbate to Gay porn but have never been witnessed to do so. They fantasize about people of the same gender as themselves. They are biologically and chemically wired in every way that a standard homosexual individual is. Yet solely because society hasn't viewed them as a stereotypical homosexual, then they are not gay?

This concept is just absurdly insane.

You do realize that society is not a static mindset where everything fits into neat little descriptions, don't you? What you view as typical homosexual behavior, may not be what I view homosexual behavior to be.

For instance, should a man wear pink or rainbow clothing? Some would say that it's "Gay" to do so, others would say it makes no difference.

Your logic is intrinsically flawed.

originally posted by: Helious
Biology makes you nothing but alive and conscious. The person you are and what you are labeled are a direct result of the choices you make in life. If you view yourself as homosexual before you make the choice to be homosexual, that is only happening in your own mind and only matters to you alone, it makes you nothing until you make the choice to become that to observers.

Again, feel free to actually back up your claims. You state that people are predisposed to being attracted to specific things, genders, ages, or what have you, yet are claiming right now that it makes no difference because people need to judge you in order for you to be labeled properly.

Ridiculous

a reply to: Ghost147

My "evidence" is basic, simple logical thought. Nothing more and nothing less. You seem to think you are whatever you view yourself as in your own mind and that just is not the case. Any person on this Earth is only a product of of the choices they have made. That is a simple truth.

You seem to think it's nonsense. My conclusion is that you are unable to think logically about the subject matter and my conclusion is that we will have to agree to disagree.

Helious, your either trying to piss people off on purpose or you really need to go to the library to educate yourself on this subject.

a reply to: Helious

originally posted by: Helious
My "evidence" is basic, simple logical thought.

So what you're saying is you have nothing to base your claims off of other than your own self assessed absolute knowledge that just simply "IS" the correct view?

Right... So much for an actual debate. "I am right, because I am right!" so says the great Helious...

originally posted by: Helious
You seem to think you are whatever you view yourself as in your own mind and that just is not the case.

Uh no... Self perception is extremely unreliable when it comes down to psychological evaluation. What my view is is the what scientific community is, also. And that view is that biology is the likely cause for sexual orientation. It most certainly is not determined by the views of society.

originally posted by: Helious
Any person on this Earth is only a product of of the choices they have made. That is a simple truth.

Right, just like how I chose my skin color, eye color, and biological makeup. got it...

originally posted by: Helious
You seem to think it's nonsense. My conclusion is that you are unable to think logically about the subject matter and my conclusion is that we will have to agree to disagree.

I think it's nonsense because you have consistently thwarted your own claims. I also think it's nonsense because all the evidence you have given is your own opinion and refuse to back up any of your claims from external sources. I also think it's evidence because what we see in the world around us and through hundreds of scientifically-backed tests is that the conclusion is biologically based.

My words aren't of opinion, unlike yours. They actually hold some value...

originally posted by: bucsarg
Helious, your either trying to piss people off on purpose or you really need to go to the library to educate yourself on this subject.

a reply to: Helious

Help me out then. What exactly do I need to "educate" myself about on this subject matter?

So what you're saying is you have nothing to base your claims off of other than your own self assessed absolute knowledge that just simply "IS" the correct view?

Right... So much for an actual debate. "I am right, because I am right!" so says the great Helious...

What claims am I making that need to be backed up by a google link? My first and last post in this thread was simply that everything in life is a choice. You wan't me to give you a link to back that up? Pffffff....... Ok......

Uh no... Self perception is extremely unreliable when it comes down to psychological evaluation. What my view is is the what scientific community is, also. And that view is that biology is the likely cause for sexual orientation. It most certainly is not determined by the views of society.

You are the one saying I have been hypocritical? The scientific community does not view homosexuality in humans to be biological, it views certain species lesser to humans to have innate homosexual tendencies. Stating that mainstream science understands the underlying issue of homosexuality is disingenuous because we both know it does not an there is as much "Scientific" evidence that claims that homosexuality is a disorder of the brain as there is to claim it is "biological". There is in point of fact absolutely zero credible evidence that it has ANYTHING at all to do with genes or DNA, that point that you brought up is complete fallacy.

I think it's nonsense because you have consistently thwarted your own claims. I also think it's nonsense because all the evidence you have given is your own opinion and refuse to back up any of your claims from external sources. I also think it's evidence because what we see in the world around us and through hundreds of scientifically-backed tests is that the conclusion is biologically based.

What in the hell are you talking about? Everything I have said is completely consistent with everything else. I have not "thwarted" my own claims because I claim nothing more than self evident truth. A person is a sum of the choices they make. Yes.... I have certainly undone myself with that claim!

Product of Environment. Anyone subjected to the same Stimuli repetitiously through Consequence or otherwise develop tendencies in forms of unconscious or subliminal Brainwashing, just as Any couple who have spent a lifetime together develop similar characteristic's in pattern.

If subjected too early in life to such Stimuli, development will be stunted or immature rationally and morally, then confusion and proper place becomes Jeopardized.

Stimuli is the Culprit, Its all Developmental

originally posted by: GetHyped

originally posted by: BlackboxInquiry
Throwing my hat in the ring here:


Just let people be people and stop asking for the Gov't to get involved in personal matters would be the intelligent thing to do.

Letting the government step in to put in the checks and balances needed for an oppressed group to enjoy the same liberties as everyone else is the intelligent and compassionate thing to do. Sitting back and saying "Well, not my problem" isn't. How you've managed to tie that in with Marxism is beyond me.

Prior to about 1920, there was no Gov't involvement in marriage.

They inserted themselves into the equation, as if *anyone* needed their permission to get married. Prior to that, nobody cared....relationships remained personal.

They got involved, not to give pats on the back, but rather to *Control* love. Look at history, they were telling people who were different backgrounds, that they could, could not, were not qualified to get married according to the law....

Now how I tie the whole equation into Marxism is this - so many people are *giving* the gov't more control over personal matters, that the state is ever more becoming mower powerful, exercising more controls over things they have absolutely *no* right to be into....

Had the Gov't not gotten involved and started dictating to us who could and could not get married...personally I think that the only people who needed to recognize a marriage would have had this whole "marriage equality" thing tackled long, long ago...you know why? Because as long as the individuals who were getting married only cared about their partner, family and friends recognizing it...and for some, their church of choice as well.

So, giving the Gov't more control over personal, private matters leads to a bigger and bigger Gov't. Uses more resources, has more power, and has less and less responsibility to act well, and even less accountability - as our personal liberties and rights are eroded.

I can't think of a single thing that's become better, more streamlined, less expensive and works better than it did prior to them getting involved....

The people scream for the Gov't to fix almost everything...when if looked at, the Govt's only roles started out as to represent the people, levy taxes to help pay for roads and the construction of said roads. Smells of Marxism, or totalitarianism to me. "Progressive-ism" is the same exact thing, just with a slightly more pleasant sounding moniker.

originally posted by: SPECULUM

originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: SPECULUM

Are you really equating homosexuality with paedophilia? Because if you are, you are nothing more than a hateful, small-minded bigot.

I said nothing hateful, only Factual

You have said nothing factual. Your ignorance is leaking.

originally posted by: SPECULUM
Product of Environment. Anyone subjected to the same Stimuli repetitiously through Consequence or otherwise develop tendencies in forms of unconscious or subliminal Brainwashing, just as Any couple who have spent a lifetime together develop similar characteristic's in pattern.

If subjected too early in life to such Stimuli, development will be stunted or immature rationally and morally, then confusion and proper place becomes Jeopardized.

Stimuli is the Culprit, Its all Developmental

So to boil it down if I make my son watch back-to-back episodes of Glee he'll grow up gay?

What a pile of unsubstantiated crap.

(And pack it in with the random capital letters, it's difficult enough to try and take you Seriously).

You can influence who you are sexually attracted to by choice. Even as a heterosexual man you can choose to be attracted to fat women or slim women. Because of different reasons, because of choice. Likewise you can choose to not be sexually attracted to the same gender. Because you are a human being and you can make a choice. You are not a animal that only follows its sexual drives... or are you?

a reply to: bucsarg

"In order for the human species to survive we must be able to produce offspring. This is natural"

What makes you think the human species is destined to survive? Considering our actions towards one another never mind the planet in general it's not like we deserve to be the dominant species of our world.

a reply to: anotherdaytoday

I would like you to prove this to me. I would like for you to make the choice to be attracted to someone of the same gender for the next year. I'm not even asking for you to be attracted to them for life. Just one year. Prove to me that it is possible. Okay?

originally posted by: anotherdaytoday
You can influence who you are sexually attracted to by choice. Even as a heterosexual man you can choose to be attracted to fat women or slim women. Because of different reasons, because of choice. Likewise you can choose to not be sexually attracted to the same gender. Because you are a human being and you can make a choice. You are not a animal that only follows its sexual drives... or are you?

Wrong.
You can choose what to do when you're attracted to a certain type or sex but you can't choose that attraction.