Homosexuality Is Not A Choice

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
a reply to: Metallicus

Sexual deviant, how low can one go.

It is by definition a sexual deviance in that it differs from the norm. Look it up if you don't believe me. You are so worried about words why not focus on the potential for a cure. This is good news.

The people whom define disorders have agreed that it is not a disorder. You can look it up.

I never said it was a disorder. I said it was a sexual deviance.

Don't put words in my mouth...its rude.

Yes it is. Everything in life is a choice. That's not a debate, it's fact.

originally posted by: Helious
Yes it is. Everything in life is a choice. That's not a debate, it's fact.

I can't tell if you're trolling or not?

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: Metallicus
Like the X-Men there is nothing to cure.

]

This discovery would suggest it is a genetic disorder. Clearly it was not natures intention to create people (or animals) that won't reproduce. Nature creates mutations all the time and not all of them are improvements.

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
a reply to: bucsarg

I've read a lot of research in my time, and this looks like junky research. It's a theory I doubt will pass muster., and there is certainly nothing there to merit the statement "this is true". Nothing at all.

Like everything else that we are, it is I'm sure a combination of factors that make us all unique.

It IS NOT A Mental Illness.

I agree.

Based on research in the OP it is a genetic defect and not mental illness.

ETA:

sexual deviation
1. a turning away from the regular standard or course.
2. in ophthalmology, strabismus.
3. in statistics, the difference between a sample value and the mean.

Clearly homosexuality is a significant deviation from the mean and is not 'regular or standard'. I am simply saying it IS a sexual deviance. I am not sure how that could be argued or even WHY you would argue.

a reply to: Metallicus

Clearly it was not natures intention to create people (or animals) that won't reproduce. Nature creates mutations all the time and not all of them are improvements.

Nature has no intentions. But you're right, not all mutations are improvements. A lot are pretty irrelevant.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Metallicus

Clearly it was not natures intention to create people (or animals) that won't reproduce. Nature creates mutations all the time and not all of them are improvements.

Nature has no intentions. But you're right, not all mutations are improvements. A lot are pretty irrelevant.

Nature could very well have an intention programmed by a prime mover or other intelligent source. Unless we understand how and why we are here we can't say with any certainty that nature doesn't follow some sort of intelligent design.

a reply to: Metallicus

Unless we understand how and why we are here we can't say with any certainty that nature doesn't follow some sort of intelligent design.

I can. And I just did.

a reply to: Metallicus

Yes, but there is nothing to suggest it does follow an intended program either.

originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: Helious
Yes it is. Everything in life is a choice. That's not a debate, it's fact.

I can't tell if you're trolling or not?

Stating a simple fact is considered trolling these days? Color me suprised.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Metallicus

Unless we understand how and why we are here we can't say with any certainty that nature doesn't follow some sort of intelligent design.

I can. And I just did.

Well that would make your statement unscientific and frivolous without any data to support that conclusion. Your reputation suggests you could do better.

originally posted by: Helious
Yes it is. Everything in life is a choice. That's not a debate, it's fact.

Sweet, when do I get to choose my gender/eye color/height/etc?

a reply to: Helious

I see... I'm not sure just how factual that is. How is our eye color a choice? Sure, you can opt to change it later, or even perhaps the parents can choose to genetically augment their gestating child, but how is that the choice of the child itself?

Would that not mean that everything that is genetically determined during our conception and following growth not something we cognitively "choose"? So how is sexual orientation any different, considering it is determined genetically - not by our actions once we've already been born.

a reply to: Metallicus

Well that would make your statement unscientific and frivolous without any data to support that conclusion.

The "intent" of nature cannot be determined scientifically. It is therefore nothing but a matter of opinion. I expressed mine.

a reply to: Layaly

Just wondering......
How much of a say did you have in your gender, skin-/eye-/hair color, or are those "criminal actions" too?

originally posted by: Ghost147
a reply to: Helious

I see... I'm not sure just how factual that is. How is our eye color a choice? Sure, you can opt to change it later, or even perhaps the parents can choose to genetically augment their gestating child, but how is that the choice of the child itself?

Would that not mean that everything that is genetically determined during our conception and following growth not something we cognitively "choose"? So how is sexual orientation any different, considering it is determined genetically - not by our actions once we've already been born.

Clever semantics can't save you from the truth. Every action you take of free will from the day you are old enough to make a decision are made by choice, with a gun to your head or not. Every single thing you do is choice.

Homosexuality has nothing to do with genes...........

originally posted by: Helious

originally posted by: Ghost147
a reply to: Helious

I see... I'm not sure just how factual that is. How is our eye color a choice? Sure, you can opt to change it later, or even perhaps the parents can choose to genetically augment their gestating child, but how is that the choice of the child itself?

Would that not mean that everything that is genetically determined during our conception and following growth not something we cognitively "choose"? So how is sexual orientation any different, considering it is determined genetically - not by our actions once we've already been born.

Clever semantics can't save you from the truth. Every action you take of free will from the day you are old enough to make a decision are made by choice, with a gun to your head or not. Every single thing you do is choice.

a reply to: Helious

Actually, I could go further to argue that the choices you make could also be subject to your biological makeup. For example, if an individual is not able to produce the amount of specific neurological chemicals, lets say Dopamine or Serotonin, among a list of other neurological differences from that of a common individual, they would be compelled to express certain things much differently.

That's where we see personality disorders such Antisocial Personality Disorder arise. These individuals are naturally geared towards manipulative, destructive, violent, and parasitic tendencies. So can we really blame them for their "choices" considering they were practically predestined to carry out those processes?

Back to the subject at hand though, Homosexuality is a biological trait. There for it is not a choice. Of course, an individual can choose not do act upon those urges that their biological trait drives them towards, but being homosexual in the first place would not be a choice.

originally posted by: Helious
Homosexuality has nothing to do with genes...........

On the contrary....

Postmortem and imaging studies over the past two decades have revealed structural differences in both global structures and sexually-related brain structures between heterosexual and homosexual subjects.

There are differences in the:
~ Hypothalamus (Swaab DF, Hofman MA (June 1995). "Sexual differentiation of the human hypothalamus in relation to gender and sexual orientation". Trends in Neurosciences 18 (6): 264–70. doi:10.1016/0166-2236(95)80007-O. PMID 7571001.)
~ Cerebral asymmetry (Savic I, Lindström P (July 2008). "PET and MRI show differences in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between homo- and heterosexual subjects". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America 105 (27): 9403–8. doi:10.1073/pnas.0801566105. PMC 2453705. PMID 18559854.)
~ Anterior commissure (Savic I, Lindström P (July 2008). "PET and MRI show differences in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between homo- and heterosexual subjects". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America 105 (27): 9403–8. doi:10.1073/pnas.0801566105. PMC 2453705. PMID 18559854.)

Among other things there are also functional differences from a neurological perspective in reference to homosexuals and heterosexuals.

So yes, Homosexuality is all Genetic Makeup

originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: Helious

originally posted by: Ghost147
a reply to: Helious

I see... I'm not sure just how factual that is. How is our eye color a choice? Sure, you can opt to change it later, or even perhaps the parents can choose to genetically augment their gestating child, but how is that the choice of the child itself?

Would that not mean that everything that is genetically determined during our conception and following growth not something we cognitively "choose"? So how is sexual orientation any different, considering it is determined genetically - not by our actions once we've already been born.

Clever semantics can't save you from the truth. Every action you take of free will from the day you are old enough to make a decision are made by choice, with a gun to your head or not. Every single thing you do is choice.

a reply to: Helious

Actually, I could go further to argue that the choices you make could also be subject to your biological makeup. For example, if an individual is not able to produce the amount of specific neurological chemicals, lets say Dopamine or Serotonin, among a list of other neurological differences from that of a common individual, they would be compelled to express certain things much differently.

That's where we see personality disorders such Antisocial Personality Disorder arise. These individuals are naturally geared towards manipulative, destructive, violent, and parasitic tendencies. So can we really blame them for their "choices" considering they were practically predestined to carry out those processes?

Back to the subject at hand though, Homosexuality is a biological trait. There for it is not a choice. Of course, an individual can choose not do act upon those urges that their biological trait drives them towards, but being homosexual in the first place would not be a choice.

originally posted by: Helious
Homosexuality has nothing to do with genes...........

On the contrary....

Postmortem and imaging studies over the past two decades have revealed structural differences in both global structures and sexually-related brain structures between heterosexual and homosexual subjects.

There are differences in the:
~ Hypothalamus (Swaab DF, Hofman MA (June 1995). "Sexual differentiation of the human hypothalamus in relation to gender and sexual orientation". Trends in Neurosciences 18 (6): 264–70. doi:10.1016/0166-2236(95)80007-O. PMID 7571001.)
~ Cerebral asymmetry (Savic I, Lindström P (July 2008). "PET and MRI show differences in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between homo- and heterosexual subjects". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America 105 (27): 9403–8. doi:10.1073/pnas.0801566105. PMC 2453705. PMID 18559854.)
~ Anterior commissure (Savic I, Lindström P (July 2008). "PET and MRI show differences in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between homo- and heterosexual subjects". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America 105 (27): 9403–8. doi:10.1073/pnas.0801566105. PMC 2453705. PMID 18559854.)

Among other things there are also functional differences from a neurological perspective in reference to homosexuals and heterosexuals.

So yes, Homosexuality is all Genetic Makeup

No. No study of genetic makeup or structure can identify nor predict homosexuality. The information you present is equivalent to the bible code, they know somebody is homosexual so they start to look for differences but if the research were correct or even accepted, there would be prediction but there is not and can not be.

That is not how science works, it's pure nonsense.

Furthermore, one may very well be predisposed to being sexually or emotionally attracted to the same sex, I would not dare deny that, what I explicitly state as fact is that the urge to act on that feeling is by choice. Being heterosexual is a choice, being abstanant is a choice and therefore being homosexual is also a choice.

a reply to: Helious

Uh, no, you are confusing things:
Heterosexual simply means that someone is attracted to someone of the opposite sex.
Homosexual simply means that someone is attracted to someone of the same sex.

Neither of these are conscious actions. Abstinence, on the other hand, is a conscious action. Likewise, sexual intercourse is a conscious action (aside from horrific stuff, anyway).

originally posted by: Helious

originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: Helious

originally posted by: Ghost147
a reply to: Helious

I see... I'm not sure just how factual that is. How is our eye color a choice? Sure, you can opt to change it later, or even perhaps the parents can choose to genetically augment their gestating child, but how is that the choice of the child itself?

Would that not mean that everything that is genetically determined during our conception and following growth not something we cognitively "choose"? So how is sexual orientation any different, considering it is determined genetically - not by our actions once we've already been born.

Clever semantics can't save you from the truth. Every action you take of free will from the day you are old enough to make a decision are made by choice, with a gun to your head or not. Every single thing you do is choice.

a reply to: Helious

Actually, I could go further to argue that the choices you make could also be subject to your biological makeup. For example, if an individual is not able to produce the amount of specific neurological chemicals, lets say Dopamine or Serotonin, among a list of other neurological differences from that of a common individual, they would be compelled to express certain things much differently.

That's where we see personality disorders such Antisocial Personality Disorder arise. These individuals are naturally geared towards manipulative, destructive, violent, and parasitic tendencies. So can we really blame them for their "choices" considering they were practically predestined to carry out those processes?

Back to the subject at hand though, Homosexuality is a biological trait. There for it is not a choice. Of course, an individual can choose not do act upon those urges that their biological trait drives them towards, but being homosexual in the first place would not be a choice.

originally posted by: Helious
Homosexuality has nothing to do with genes...........

On the contrary....

Postmortem and imaging studies over the past two decades have revealed structural differences in both global structures and sexually-related brain structures between heterosexual and homosexual subjects.

There are differences in the:
~ Hypothalamus (Swaab DF, Hofman MA (June 1995). "Sexual differentiation of the human hypothalamus in relation to gender and sexual orientation". Trends in Neurosciences 18 (6): 264–70. doi:10.1016/0166-2236(95)80007-O. PMID 7571001.)
~ Cerebral asymmetry (Savic I, Lindström P (July 2008). "PET and MRI show differences in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between homo- and heterosexual subjects". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America 105 (27): 9403–8. doi:10.1073/pnas.0801566105. PMC 2453705. PMID 18559854.)
~ Anterior commissure (Savic I, Lindström P (July 2008). "PET and MRI show differences in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between homo- and heterosexual subjects". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America 105 (27): 9403–8. doi:10.1073/pnas.0801566105. PMC 2453705. PMID 18559854.)

Among other things there are also functional differences from a neurological perspective in reference to homosexuals and heterosexuals.

So yes, Homosexuality is all Genetic Makeup

No. No study of genetic makeup or structure can identify nor predict homosexuality. The information you present is equivalent to the bible code, they know somebody is homosexual so they start to look for differences but if the research were correct or even accepted, there would be prediction but there is not and can not be.

That is not how science works, it's pure nonsense.

You're free to explain how the information I've provided is incorrect, rather than just stating "it's the equivalent to bible code".

originally posted by: Helious
Furthermore, one may very well be predisposed to being sexually or emotionally attracted to the same sex, I would not dare deny that, what I explicitly state as fact is that the urge to act on that feeling is by choice. Being heterosexual is a choice, being abstanant is a choice and therefore being homosexual is also a choice.

Again, your not describing a sexual orientation as the choice at hand, but instead referencing actions alone. Abstinence is indeed a choice because abstinence is an action. An individual is choosing to refrain from sex. Abstinence is not a sexuality nor is it a sexual orientation.

Heterosexuality and Homosexuality are not actions, they are sexual orientations derived from biological traits. One does not choose to like the opposite gender, nor does one choose to like the same gender. Of course, the action of having sex with an individual of an opposite, or same gender is a choice - because it's an action...