Homosexuality Is Not A Choice

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Mugly
a reply to: bucsarg

so who cares?
natural? unnatural?

i say as long as theyre happy thats all that matters.

i always thought that the 'its not natural cause they cant procreate' was always a lame ass argument against it.

Not from an evolutionary biology standpoint, it isn't.

Evolution doesn't decide what traits are selected for to better a population; that's what natural selection is for. The term "Biological Evolution" refers to the changes in allele frequency through reproduction. Any number of mutations can occur, and those mutations could really be just about anything.

So when a mutation occurs that is either not beneficial or actually hurts the survival of a population within a species, it will be weeded out through natural selection. However, considering Homosexuality is so incredibly common among thousands of species, clearly it exists for a reason.

originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Mugly
a reply to: bucsarg

so who cares?
natural? unnatural?

i say as long as theyre happy thats all that matters.

i always thought that the 'its not natural cause they cant procreate' was always a lame ass argument against it.

Not from an evolutionary biology standpoint, it isn't.

Evolution doesn't decide what traits are selected for to better a population; that's what natural selection is for. The term "Biological Evolution" refers to the changes in allele frequency through reproduction. Any number of mutations can occur, and those mutations could really be just about anything.

So when a mutation occurs that is either not beneficial or actually hurts the survival of a population within a species, it will be weeded out through natural selection. However, considering Homosexuality is so incredibly common among thousands of species, clearly it exists for a reason.

And homosexuality passes alleles along how>?

Thousands of species? Please. Name them.

New Testament: Matthew 19:4-6
4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh' ? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

Male & Female!

That's about all the evidence you'll get out of anyone claiming homosexuality is not natural.



a reply to: Ghost147

a reply to: bucsarg

maybe not, but apparently being a pansexual, transgender, neo-emo is a choice. Just ask the kids nowadays

originally posted by: frostjon361
a reply to: bucsarg

maybe not, but apparently being a pansexual, transgender, neo-emo is a choice. Just ask the kids nowadays

I wish my lawn was EMO.



Then it'd cut itself.

a reply to: Megatronus

Thanks mate that was it!

Cheers
Ektar

a reply to: NavyDoc

www.medicaldaily.com...

a reply to: bucsarg

Homosexuality is not natural because homosexuals cannot produce offspring.

LOL, unless you have direct communication with the universe on what our purpose is you can't rule out the following :

Perhaps it is Natural and Natures way to ensure we do not over produce.

In regards to your article

Why People Are Gay?

Who cares? but most likely for the same reason some guys like female parts.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: NavyDoc

www.medicaldaily.com...

1). Correlation does not equal causation.
2). They do not make the claim that being gay makes an evolutionary advantage, they said that there mighte be a gene in women that increases fecundity in women that may be passed on as a byproduct to male heirs that may be associated with homosexuality. They did not, nor could not, based on that article state that homosexuality gave an evolutionary advantage. Sort of like sickle cell trait give resistance to malaria and that is an evolutionary advantage by increasing survivability but a by-product of too much expression of the gene causes sickle cell disease that is actually an evolutionary disadvantage in that it reduces survivability.

We can produce children though, besides adoption we can always use a surrogate.. the same as if a Women can't have children or a mans sperm doesn't work..

Now, i agree i was born Gay and Genderfluid.. i never made a "Choice" to be this way, there was a never a decision.. i was Born who and how i am

originally posted by: NavyDoc
And homosexuality passes alleles along how>?

Again, not all mutations are obviously beneficial. However, just because someone is homosexual doesn't mean they are completely infertile and unable to reproduce.

originally posted by: NavyDocThousands of species? Please. Name them.

If you wish:

Bison[16]
Brown bear[17]
Brown rat[18]
Cavy[18]
Caribou[19]
Cat (domestic)[20]
Cattle (domestic)[21]
Chimpanzee[22][23][24][25]
Common dolphin[26]
Common marmoset[27]
Dog[28]
Elephant[29]
Fox[30]
Giraffe[3][31][32]
Goat[16]
Horse (domestic)[33]
Human[34][35][36]
Koala[37]
Barn owl[39]
Chicken[40]
Common gull[41]
Emu[42]
King penguin[43]
Mallard[44]
Raven[45]
Seagull[46]
Amazon molly[48]
Bennett
Blackstripe topminnow[49]
Bluegill sunfish[49]
Char[47]
Grayling[47]
European bitterling[50]
Green swordtail[50]
Guiana leaffish[51]
Houting whitefish[47]
Jewel fish[52]
Least darter (Microperca punctulata)[50]
Mouthbreeding fish sp.[49]
Salmon spp.[53]
Southern platyfish[50]
Ten-spined stickleback[50]
Three-spined stickleback[50]
Anole sp.[54]
Bearded dragon[55]
Blue-tailed day gecko (Phelsuma cepediana)[56]
Broad-headed skink[50]
Checkered whiptail lizard[55]
Chihuahuan spotted whiptail lizard[55]
Common ameiva[55]
Common garter snake[50]
Cuban green anole[54]
Desert grassland whiptail lizard[55]
Desert tortoise[57]
Fence lizard[disambiguation needed][55]
Five-lined skink[50]
Gold dust day gecko (Phelsuma laticauda)[56]
Gopher (pine) snake[49]
Green anole[54]
Inagua curlytail lizard[55]
Jamaican giant anole[54]
Laredo striped whiptail lizard[55]
Largehead anole[54]
Mourning gecko[58]
Plateau striped whiptail lizard[55]
Red diamond rattlesnake[50]
Red-tailed skink[50]
Side-blotched lizard[55]
Speckled rattlesnake[50]
Water moccasin[50]
Western rattlesnake (Crotalus viridis)[50]
Western banded gecko[58]
Whiptail lizard spp.[55]
Wood turtle[54]


Appalachian woodland salamander[59]
Black-spotted frog[60]
Mountain dusky salamander[59]
Tengger desert toad[54]
Alfalfa weevil[62]
Australian parasitic wasp sp.[62]
Bean weevil sp.[62]
Bedbug and other bug spp.[63][64]
Blister beetle spp.[65]
Blowfly[65]
Broadwinged damselfly sp.[66]
Cabbage (small) white (butterfly)[67]
Checkerspot butterfly[67]
Club-tailed dragonfly spp.[68]
Cockroach spp.[69]
Common skimmer dragonfly spp.[68]
Creeping water bug sp.[70]
Cutworm[71]
Digger bee[72]
Dragonfly spp.[68]
Eastern giant ichneumon wasp[62]
Eucalyptus longhorned borer[70]
Field cricket sp.[73]
Flour beetle[61]
Fruit fly spp.[74]
Glasswing butterfly[67]
Hypoponera opacior ant[75]
Grape berry moth[76]
Grape borer[70]
Green lacewing[77]
Hen flea[77]
House fly[78]
Ichneumon wasp sp.[62]
Japanese scarab beetle[79]
Larch bud moth[76]
Large milkweed bug[64]
Large white[64]
Long-legged fly spp.[80]
Mazarine blue[64]
Mexican white (butterfly)[64]
Midge sp.[80]
Migratory locust[81]
Monarch butterfly[67]
Narrow-winged damselfly spp.[66]
Parsnip leaf miner[80]
Pomace fly[80]
Queen butterfly[67]
Red ant sp.[80]
Red flour beetle[64]
Reindeer warble fly (Hypoderma tarandi)[80]
Rose chafer[disambiguation needed][80]
Rove beetle spp.[64]
Scarab beetle (melolonthine)[82]
Screwworm fly[80]
Silkworm moth[76]
Southeastern blueberry bee[72]
Southern green stink bug[64]
Southern masked chafer[80]
Southern one-year canegrub[80]
Spreadwinged damselfly spp.[66]
Spruce budworm moth[76]
Stable fly sp.[80]
Stag beetle spp.[64]
Tsetse fly[80]
Water boatman bug[64]
Water strider spp.[64]
Blood-fluke[83]
Box crab[84]
Harvest spider sp.[85]
Hawaiian orb-weaver (spider)[85]
Incirrate octopus spp.[84]
Jumping spider and some select yeast sp.[85]
Mite sp.[80]
Spiny-headed worm[86]

Here's a few to start you off. Again, there are thousands more that have been documented.

Then we can go further beyond that and list the thousands of other species which can actively change their gender at any moment in their life. It's called Sequential hermaphroditism. This occurs in Plants, Amphibians, Fish, Insects, Invertebrates, and so forth.

Then we have other species such as those of the Aspidoscelis genus, where the entire species is female. They are a parthenogenetic species, yet still actively show homosexual mating behavior to assist with breeding.

The fact that this information is at all a shock to you just shows how little you know about the topic you're arguing.

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: bucsarg

Why People Are Gay?

Who cares? but most likely for the same reason some guys like female parts.

Pretty sure guys like female parts for the basic instinct of reproduction.

Isn't epigenetics still controversial? It's surely time to get past those whole sexual deviance label that homosexuality has had for so long regardless. Also, it is natural, it occurs with many animal species. I'm bi but chose to marry a man that is my choice but still see women as attractive. Epigentics says Father to daughter? I have an aunt(father's side) who was lesbian/bi, so if true here would make some sense.

originally posted by: TheMadTitan

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: bucsarg

Why People Are Gay?

Who cares? but most likely for the same reason some guys like female parts.

Pretty sure guys like female parts for the basic instinct of reproduction.

The reason why Homosexuals are attracted to the "parts" of the same gender is the same as why heterosexuals are attracted to the "parts" of the opposite gender. The Neurological stimulation, triggers, and responses are exactly the same, and for the same reasons.

Oh no. Most guys I know want to stay far away from reproduction.


a reply to: TheMadTitan

originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: NavyDoc
And homosexuality passes alleles along how>?

Again, not all mutations are obviously beneficial. However, just because someone is homosexual doesn't mean they are completely infertile and unable to reproduce.

originally posted by: NavyDocThousands of species? Please. Name them.

If you wish:

Bison[16]
Brown bear[17]
Brown rat[18]
Cavy[18]
Caribou[19]
Cat (domestic)[20]
Cattle (domestic)[21]
Chimpanzee[22][23][24][25]
Common dolphin[26]
Common marmoset[27]
Dog[28]
Elephant[29]
Fox[30]
Giraffe[3][31][32]
Goat[16]
Horse (domestic)[33]
Human[34][35][36]
Koala[37]
Barn owl[39]
Chicken[40]
Common gull[41]
Emu[42]
King penguin[43]
Mallard[44]
Raven[45]
Seagull[46]
Amazon molly[48]
Bennett
Blackstripe topminnow[49]
Bluegill sunfish[49]
Char[47]
Grayling[47]
European bitterling[50]
Green swordtail[50]
Guiana leaffish[51]
Houting whitefish[47]
Jewel fish[52]
Least darter (Microperca punctulata)[50]
Mouthbreeding fish sp.[49]
Salmon spp.[53]
Southern platyfish[50]
Ten-spined stickleback[50]
Three-spined stickleback[50]
Anole sp.[54]
Bearded dragon[55]
Blue-tailed day gecko (Phelsuma cepediana)[56]
Broad-headed skink[50]
Checkered whiptail lizard[55]
Chihuahuan spotted whiptail lizard[55]
Common ameiva[55]
Common garter snake[50]
Cuban green anole[54]
Desert grassland whiptail lizard[55]
Desert tortoise[57]
Fence lizard[disambiguation needed][55]
Five-lined skink[50]
Gold dust day gecko (Phelsuma laticauda)[56]
Gopher (pine) snake[49]
Green anole[54]
Inagua curlytail lizard[55]
Jamaican giant anole[54]
Laredo striped whiptail lizard[55]
Largehead anole[54]
Mourning gecko[58]
Plateau striped whiptail lizard[55]
Red diamond rattlesnake[50]
Red-tailed skink[50]
Side-blotched lizard[55]
Speckled rattlesnake[50]
Water moccasin[50]
Western rattlesnake (Crotalus viridis)[50]
Western banded gecko[58]
Whiptail lizard spp.[55]
Wood turtle[54]


Appalachian woodland salamander[59]
Black-spotted frog[60]
Mountain dusky salamander[59]
Tengger desert toad[54]
Alfalfa weevil[62]
Australian parasitic wasp sp.[62]
Bean weevil sp.[62]
Bedbug and other bug spp.[63][64]
Blister beetle spp.[65]
Blowfly[65]
Broadwinged damselfly sp.[66]
Cabbage (small) white (butterfly)[67]
Checkerspot butterfly[67]
Club-tailed dragonfly spp.[68]
Cockroach spp.[69]
Common skimmer dragonfly spp.[68]
Creeping water bug sp.[70]
Cutworm[71]
Digger bee[72]
Dragonfly spp.[68]
Eastern giant ichneumon wasp[62]
Eucalyptus longhorned borer[70]
Field cricket sp.[73]
Flour beetle[61]
Fruit fly spp.[74]
Glasswing butterfly[67]
Hypoponera opacior ant[75]
Grape berry moth[76]
Grape borer[70]
Green lacewing[77]
Hen flea[77]
House fly[78]
Ichneumon wasp sp.[62]
Japanese scarab beetle[79]
Larch bud moth[76]
Large milkweed bug[64]
Large white[64]
Long-legged fly spp.[80]
Mazarine blue[64]
Mexican white (butterfly)[64]
Midge sp.[80]
Migratory locust[81]
Monarch butterfly[67]
Narrow-winged damselfly spp.[66]
Parsnip leaf miner[80]
Pomace fly[80]
Queen butterfly[67]
Red ant sp.[80]
Red flour beetle[64]
Reindeer warble fly (Hypoderma tarandi)[80]
Rose chafer[disambiguation needed][80]
Rove beetle spp.[64]
Scarab beetle (melolonthine)[82]
Screwworm fly[80]
Silkworm moth[76]
Southeastern blueberry bee[72]
Southern green stink bug[64]
Southern masked chafer[80]
Southern one-year canegrub[80]
Spreadwinged damselfly spp.[66]
Spruce budworm moth[76]
Stable fly sp.[80]
Stag beetle spp.[64]
Tsetse fly[80]
Water boatman bug[64]
Water strider spp.[64]
Blood-fluke[83]
Box crab[84]
Harvest spider sp.[85]
Hawaiian orb-weaver (spider)[85]
Incirrate octopus spp.[84]
Jumping spider and some select yeast sp.[85]
Mite sp.[80]
Spiny-headed worm[86]

Here's a few to start you off. Again, there are thousands more that have been documented.

Then we can go further beyond that and list the thousands of other species which can actively change their gender at any moment in their life. It's called Sequential hermaphroditism. This occurs in Plants, Amphibians, Fish, Insects, Invertebrates, and so forth.

Then we have other species such as those of the Aspidoscelis genus, where the entire species is female. They are a parthenogenetic species, yet still actively show homosexual mating behavior to assist with breeding.

The fact that this information is at all a shock to you just shows how little you know about the topic you're arguing.

First of all, it's not a shock. There are various species that do not reproduce like humans, however, it is rather moronic to extrapolate invertebrate behavior to human sexuality.

Invertebrates are gay. Plants are gay. Really. Perhaps you have too broad a definition of homosexuality. If one has to shoehorn invertebrate and plant and flatworm behavior into human constructs, than perhaps one really does not have much of an argument.

I hear that bacteria divide--that is proof that homosexuality is part of the natural order in humans.

originally posted by: nerbot

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
Animals also show signs of homosexuality, so yes its natural.

Ever considered animals can behave unnaturally too?

By definition, no.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
First of all, it's not a shock.

Then why challenge anyone to list the various number of other species that exhibit homosexual behavior if you already know it exists? Why are you even here if that is the case?

originally posted by: NavyDoc
There are various species that do not reproduce like humans, however, it is rather moronic to extrapolate invertebrate behavior to human sexuality.

You asked for species in general, so I provided that. Exactly what is the issue here?

originally posted by: NavyDoc
Invertebrates are gay. Plants are gay. Really. Perhaps you have too broad a definition of homosexuality. If one has to shoehorn invertebrate and plant and flatworm behavior into human constructs, than perhaps one really does not have much of an argument.

When did I ever state that "Invertabrates are gay. plants are gay. thus - "human constructs"" I showed that many species within those kingdoms have been documented to exhibit homosexuality, which is exactly what you asked for.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
I hear that bacteria divide--that is proof that homosexuality is part of the natural order in humans.

Uh, no... Cell division may be a form of reproduction in some simple unicellular organisms, but that in no way describes homosexuality. Nor does Asexual reproduction mean Homosexuality.

Homosexuality is when an individual of a species is sexually attracted to another individual of the same gender within that same species. When did I ever suggest Homosexuality was defined in any way other than that?

That big list I posted wasn't just my opinion, those are actual documented species from various studies.

If you would like, i can also post each and every study that list references?

originally posted by: TheMadTitan

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: bucsarg

Why People Are Gay?

Who cares? but most likely for the same reason some guys like female parts.

Pretty sure guys like female parts for the basic instinct of reproduction.

Maybe I have evolved because I like them for more things than just reproduction

I'm sure some basic instincts could be at play . However, that does not take away from the premise that being gay could be natures way to control population. Hence a natural thing.

a reply to: interupt42

It's definitely a possibility