NLBS #48: The United States Is Not, And Never Was, A Christian Nation

a reply to: Annee

Christians influenced law because the government ceded them that power through their politicians. You blame Christians. They are the obvious target, the easy target, the target you would identify through a shallow analysis of the situation. You should blame the government. The government is the conduit through which special interests (whether they be Christian or Muslim or Communist or Capitalist) will dictate the rules by which you must abide or face prosecution. I am disappointed that this very important fact is lost on so many.

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
a reply to: Barcs

Logic cannot be applied to any morality. Morals are assumptions. They are axioms. The whole concept of a morality being "hypocritical" dodges the more important observation that no morality stands on logical grounds.

I disagree. Logic and reason may not always be the foundation for making moral decisions but it's certainly not without playing a part in them. To say they are nothing more than assumptions is saying that there is no "reason" behind them which there most certainly is a reason for them, even if that reason is a personal one.

How exactly do you decide your moral choices if not for using logic and reason???

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
Wouldn't you feel a bit silly if at some point in the future the population of Americans are 51% Muslims and you call this nation "Islamic nation".

Or if there are 33% of Christians, 33% of Muslims and 33% of Buddhists living here in America. What would you call it then? Inquiring minds want to know.

Gosh, I don't know. Perhaps we'd call it a mixed religion nation? Or perhaps nothing at all? Or perhaps leave it as a "Christian Nation" for austerity sake? It all depends on how you choose to define the term - and for the 99th time, it's totally arbitrary.

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

No it is not arbitrary.

Let's see the definition of Christian:

adj. : of or relating to Jesus Christ or the religion based on his teachings

So. Is the nation based on Christianity?

a reply to: mOjOm

You're confusing "personal logic" with "absolute logic". People use logic and reason to operate on a daily basis. That isn't even worth discussing. What is germane to the conversation is how rational people can arrive at vastly different moral codes. The truth is that they are assumptions we make through upbringing and test through experience. Just because "they work" doesn't mean "they are right".

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

It's quite simple - by "Christian Nation", those people mean a nation where the "dominant" religion is Christianity. Others take it to mean something having to do with state sanctioning of a religion. Arbitrary, wishy-washy definitions should not be the basis of an investigative video ..

No, "Christian Nation" isn't determined by a majority of "Christians" in that nation. That may be what you and some other christians want it to be but it's not and never was.

What is meant by "Christian Nation" is whether or not this nation was meant to have Christianity as the Established Religion which it most certainly was not meant to be. One of the core components of this nation is the idea of Religious Freedom and Protection for all Religions. This would not be possible if it was a "Christian Nation" because the Christian Religion has only one God, Path, Way, etc. and that is through Christ. That leaves no room for any other Religion outside of Christianity now does it???

a reply to: Deaf Alien

Lol. Or perhaps the nation, comprised of people, predominantly identify themselves as "Christian". Do you see how easy it is to mess this up?

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
a reply to: Annee

Christians influenced law because the government ceded them that power through their politicians. You blame Christians. They are the obvious target, the easy target, the target you would identify through a shallow analysis of the situation. You should blame the government. The government is the conduit through which special interests (whether they be Christian or Muslim or Communist or Capitalist) will dictate the rules by which you must abide or face prosecution. I am disappointed that this very important fact is lost on so many.

Blame? We are a secular government.

Majority has a stronger influence simply because they are the majority.

But, in a Democratic Republic everyone has a voice. The minority voices are making themselves heard.

Christians are screaming persecution ---- which is laughable. They are the bullies.

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

Do you see how easy it is to mess this up?

Nah. It's pretty straightforward. Christians THEMSELVES are the ones who demanded that this nation be called Christian and they DO mean something else.

Read the definition again. Pretty clear.

a reply to: mOjOm

That's what YOU think Christian Nation means.

If I had a country of 1 billion souls that was 100% Scientologists but Scientology was not the official religion, I'd call it a "Scientologist Nation" without giving a care about whether it was state sanctioned or not.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

Huh? Christians demanded that this nation be called Christian? Like, every single one of them? Lol.

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
a reply to: mOjOm

You're confusing "personal logic" with "absolute logic". People use logic and reason to operate on a daily basis. That isn't even worth discussing. What is germane to the conversation is how rational people can arrive at vastly different moral codes. The truth is that they are assumptions we make through upbringing and test through experience. Just because "they work" doesn't mean "they are right".

People choose their morals in a variety of ways which is why they sometimes differ but they aren't void of reason. Sometimes it's logic and emotion that creates them. Sometimes they are simply taught to us and we follow them without ever thinking about why.

Even you admit that we use logic and reason daily. You also say that we test them through experience. That would mean that we are using logic and reason to modify them.

Nobody is saying that they always work or are always correct. Logic and reason isn't always "right" either.

So I'll ask again, other than logic and reason how else would we choose our morality??? It can't all come from what we are taught and even if they were, being that we modify them by experience that would still mean we are using reason to modify them at that point.

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

Sorry to burst your bubble but you and few other Christians are the only ones who think that way. Even many Christians agree that this is not a Christian nation. Again read the definition.

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

No not every one of them. It's usually the fundies that demand it. They are the ones who scream the loudest.

a reply to: Annee

You're missing something here. Yes, Christians were (are?) the majority and have stronger influence. But what are the limits to this influence? Those limits are set by government, and for a long time, it was pretty much open season on personal freedom. Persecution of gays was made possible by the government. To be more specific, it was made possible by unchecked government power over your personal life. I'm no fan of Christianity, but you've put your crosshairs on the wrong target.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

Perhaps you should read the definition of "nation"? Put the two words together and one could very easily argue that either definition of "Christian Nation" makes sense ..

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
a reply to: mOjOm

That's what YOU think Christian Nation means.

If I had a country of 1 billion souls that was 100% Scientologists but Scientology was not the official religion, I'd call it a "Scientologist Nation" without giving a care about whether it was state sanctioned or not.

That would be a Scientology influenced nation, by majority.

But, never a Scientology nation, because the Constitution does not allow it.

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

"I'll watch your back if you watch my back" is pretty logic, right? People cooperate together to survive.

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
a reply to: Annee

You're missing something here. Yes, Christians were (are?) the majority and have stronger influence. But what are the limits to this influence? Those limits are set by government, and for a long time, it was pretty much open season on personal freedom. Persecution of gays was made possible by the government. To be more specific, it was made possible by unchecked government power over your personal life. I'm no fan of Christianity, but you've put your crosshairs on the wrong target.

The limits are set by the Consitution.

Abusing the Constitution because you got away with it for many years does not make it a Christian Nation.

It just means you abused the Constitution and got away with it.

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
That's what YOU think Christian Nation means.

If I had a country of 1 billion souls that was 100% Scientologists but Scientology was not the official religion, I'd call it a "Scientologist Nation" without giving a care about whether it was state sanctioned or not.

Well that may very well be your choice to call it whatever you want but just because I call a dog a cat doesn't mean it is one.

This nation may be made up of a majority of Christians but that is not the founding principles of which it was established. In fact, part of the reason this nation was called the Great Experiment was because it was founded on such different principles like "Religious Freedom".

The groundwork of this nations laws and system of Government was absolutely not based on any single Religion for multiple reasons. One major reason was because the founders were escaping from exactly that type of government when coming here. All of them even had different religious views as well and understood that they all had equal right to worship however they chose. Therefor they didn't establish any dominate religion for this nation. That is what this topic is about.

It's not about just by demographics alone what is the dominate religion here. That isn't even a topic of discussion since that is just raw data that answers that question.