NLBS #48: The United States Is Not, And Never Was, A Christian Nation

How in the hell did this thread get back on the main page again????

first time ive ever seen that happen on ATS..... must be the new servers!

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Your morality dictates that gay marriage is a right. Their morality dictates that it is an abomination. They're simply two different moral codes. One happens to coincide with a religious text. It's all quite arbitrary.

a reply to: Barcs

You cannot point out one example of a country or religion which withstands a modern morality test. They have all committed atrocities which run afoul of a generally accepted moral code (do not murder, steal, etc). To expect that a country, organization or religion which has existed for decades, centuries or millennia could have foreseen proper decorum by modern standards is ludicrous. Much like how that modern, generally accepted moral code will be discarded in the next century for yet another moral paradigm. We will all be a laughing stock either now or at some point in the future, that much is certain.

what is the model of a Christian nation? Medieval Spain ruled by Inquisition? Roman empire after Constantine that purged the heresies? What is meant to be a Christian nation, to implement the Gospels may be? Nobody did so for 2000 years after Jesus Christ. No emperor, no king, no pope.

the clause that the gov't will make no laws favoring any particular religion automatically nulls the 'Christian nation' claim

besides one motto states clearly.... the USA is a New Order of the Age(s)... that leaves 2,000 y.o. Christianity outside looking in, Buddah, Islam are also outside the box...

just as military personal are apolitical so too is the government not religious
but as individuals we can use the social & ethical morals as a guideline in our lives... the 'golden rule' seems applicable and a universal limbo stick

the claim that the US is a christian nation made by of course Christians, is an attempt at legitimacy for the Christians
if the US is a christian nation then that must make their religion true
but it isn't
or it would be

oh,
id say the book " war is a racket " by marine Commandant Smedly Butler and the US record for starting corporate wars of invasion for the luciferian bankers pretty much nullifies the christian claim
the only full anagram of Jesus Christ is
R-i-ch-j-e-s-t-s-U-S

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Your morality dictates that gay marriage is a right.

It's not my morality that says marriage equality is a right. It's the Constitution that says that (all citizens are to be treated equally under the law). It really has nothing to do with morality or religion, but the laws of our country.

Religious people can have their morality, as long as they don't impose it on others... See my signature.

originally posted by: sensibleSenseless
I wonder what the future will be like? There is a more important argument lurking - unified thinking versus freedom - discuss the generally juxtaposed nature of the possibilities. Perhaps it already exists.

This is an interesting point. Unified thinking vs freedom. The Christians who fight against marriage equality (denying freedom to those who wish to marry) are many times the very same ones who supposedly fight FOR freedom. It appears as long as it's freedom to own guns, freedom of religion, and freedom to discriminate, these Christians are "freedom supporters"... But when it comes to a freedom they don't want to participate in (gay marriage, abortion and freedom FROM religion), they wish to deny it to everyone, in favor of unified thinking that aligns with their religion...

So, really, it's not freedom that they support at all.

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
I have to chuckle - of all the religions out there, it is Christianity that takes a beating on forums like this.

If a bully terrorizes the weaker students for a year, and then the students rise up and put a stop to it, it's not accurate to say that the "bully really takes a beating" or is a "whipping boy". Christianity is not a victim here. They've been the "bullies" to women, gays, minorities and other religions for many years in this country. They're getting STOPPED and they take it as though they are the victim of oppression of some kind... They have been the perpetrators of oppression for many years and the other students are rising up and putting a stop to it.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

First, the constitution sets out many rights which no longer exist. Read through the amendments if you're bored. You'll see that each any every one of those has been overridden through centuries of case law.

Second, the constitution was written based on a moral code. This should be obvious. That moral code placed freedom above all else. It is a moral code. Period. Communists, for instance, have a moral code that places the good of a society over individual freedom. ANY set of laws, rules, regulations, etc. reflects the moral code of the author(s). So, yeah, treating gay people like straight people reflects a particular morality. Politics is little more than a clash of moral codes within a society.

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

natural law

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

As I said earlier, you cannot find a philosophy, religion, country, etc. which can withstand a modern morality test. So if you're going to beat up on Christians (that's not even the point of the thread, but whatever), fine, just remember that your religion (if you have one), your country, your political party, etc. is also guilty of many misdeeds. I'm sure the same is true of someone in your blood line from generations ago. We've all got sordid family history if you go back far enough. You probably have adult ancestors who married children and are technically child molesters by today's standards, but not by old standards. Does that mean your opinion is less valid? Does that mean you should be marginalized?

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

So the NLBS buffoons can blabber on about how we're not a Christian nation, but when more than 70% of the population identifies themselves as Christian, the statement is truly meaningless and only intended to stir up controversy. NLBS used to be good, but now it's just wannabe hacks.

The operative word being "identifies" but “Christian” as a group is less white and less Protestant than it has been at any time in history. a whopping 22% of Americans are now leaving the religion entirely and that's not including those who identify as “Christian” but do not practice and interpret their values differently than Christian conservatives.

The irony is that the Christian right is making the situation worse! Young people see the victim complex and the sex policing of the Christian right and it’s running them off. And they’re not just rejecting conservative Christianity but the entire idea of organized religion altogether.

Learn to play nicely with others. Stop demonstrating that "Christian love" is a code-word for vitriolic hatred. And please stop with all that frigging lying! Creationists constantly lying about science and about what scientific sources say. Christian revisionists constantly lying about US history and about what the Founding Fathers said!

If Christianity is supposed to make us better people, demonstrate that!

a reply to: TzarChasm

Interesting .. from that article:

"American jurisprudence

The U.S. Declaration of Independence states that it has become necessary for the people of the United States to assume "the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them". Some early American lawyers and judges perceived natural law as too tenuous, amorphous and evanescent a legal basis for grounding concrete rights and governmental limitations.[4] Natural law did, however, serve as authority for legal claims and rights in some judicial decisions, legislative acts, and legal pronouncements.[71] Robert Lowry Clinton argues that the U.S. Constitution rests on a common law foundation and the common law, in turn, rests on a classical natural law foundation."

a reply to: flyingfish

I'm no Christian, never have been. My point here is that Christianity and every other philosophy out there has blood on its hands. Threads like this are thick with hypocrisy, which is why I want to throw in my two cents.

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
a reply to: TzarChasm

Interesting .. from that article:

"American jurisprudence

The U.S. Declaration of Independence states that it has become necessary for the people of the United States to assume "the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them". Some early American lawyers and judges perceived natural law as too tenuous, amorphous and evanescent a legal basis for grounding concrete rights and governmental limitations.[4] Natural law did, however, serve as authority for legal claims and rights in some judicial decisions, legislative acts, and legal pronouncements.[71] Robert Lowry Clinton argues that the U.S. Constitution rests on a common law foundation and the common law, in turn, rests on a classical natural law foundation."

natural law was used primarily as a defense against agencies seeking to overrule or oppress our "natural rights" via their "divine rights".

one could argue that morality itself is tenuous and amorphous as well. how else can legislation and social etiquette vary so drastically from nation to nation?

a reply to: TzarChasm

I like the way you put that question. It really does boil down to one set of assumptions over another. Is freedom good or bad? Is murder good or bad? Is charity good or bad? One could argue it's simply a matter of which ideology becomes dominant through force. Someone else might argue that it's whichever philosophy which can outlive all others. I think it's a question which can never be fully answered ..

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
So if you're going to beat up on Christians (that's not even the point of the thread, but whatever), fine, just remember that your religion (if you have one), your country, your political party, etc. is also guilty of many misdeeds.

Stopping oppression is NOT "beating up on Christians". That was the point of my post. Their actions aren't part of the past. They are TODAY, denying rights and freedom to other people.

Can you define the phrase "Christian Nation"? I mean, it's clear that the religion with the most members in the US is Christianity. There's no arguing with that. But what does it mean in practical terms to say a country is a "Christian Nation"? Do they deserve some special treatment over non-Christians? What's the argument really about?

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

BH, anyone who pens a law denies a right / freedom. Christians do this indirectly through legislation. Why not stop oppression at the source, which is government. Oppression always has and always will stem from government meddling.

Regarding "Christian Nation", I cannot define it in such a way that everyone would be satisfied - and that's really the crux of the issue. This NLBS episode plays on this vague definition to whip people up. My opinion is that we're a Christian nation because the majority of people associate with that religion, traditionally as well. Others will say it isn't because that hasn't been codified into law (but this is common knowledge, much like our lack of an official language). I defer to the colloquial definition, but some will defer to the legal definition. Unfortunately, this subtlety was completely ignored by the NLBS. I think it speaks to the bias of their journalism - this was an opportunity to put a thumb in Christians' eyes. NLBS should stick with conspiracy theories ..

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
Why not stop oppression at the source, which is government. Oppression always has and always will stem from government meddling.

Can't disagree with that. If government wasn't swayed by the religious lobbies, we'd all have equal rights, as it was meant to be.

My opinion is that we're a Christian nation because the majority of people associate with that religion, traditionally as well.

That cannot be argued. If the phrase simply means that there are more people here who associate with the religion of Christianity, it's numbers. There is no argument.

But many who make the statement, "This is a Christian Nation" think it MEANS something... Like Christian people should have some sort of dominance or "special station" as compared to other people...

Take the "religious restoration acts" that actually protect religious people from having to obey the laws the rest of us obey. Think about that. It flies in the face of the first amendment.

And FYI, telling me to "read through the amendments if I'm bored" just shows how very little you know about me...

Unfortunately, this subtlety was completely ignored by the NLBS.

I do wish there had been a definition to work with...