NLBS #48: The United States Is Not, And Never Was, A Christian Nation

"God" got added to the pledge allegiance -- I think in the Reagan era.

"In God we Trust" first appeared on the 2 cent piece in 1864; www.usmint.gov...
>> is that where "giving your two cent's worth of opinion came from?" It would be rather funny if it were.

The concept of Abortions as a horrible sin must have happened AFTER the technology was available. The whole purpose of Nunneries was to allow well to do women to pretend they'd never gotten nocked up. The unwanted child would either go to an orphanage or be killed before their first breath; it was the belief at that time that the "first breath" was the soul entering the body. The term "God bless you" came about as a way to prevent the loss of the soul from a sneeze -- it's THAT sort of brilliance that we have to contend with here.

So I can't say if I exactly agree that we haven't always had a bit of a "Christian nation" bias -- the Founding Fathers were the enlightened people of their day, and while they were mostly Agnostics, Masons and Unitarians (Yes, Thomas Jefferson is listed as one of the founders of the UU belief system), back in Ben Franklin's home district Puritans were burning witches.

But some perspective; Shakespeare used to be more widely taught and cherished than the Bible in the South.

The Evangelicals of today would have everyone believe that they are akin to the true spirt of the Founders (who made no mistakes -- which asks the question why have the term "Amendments"?), the Majority, and the most Persecuted. Never has the world seen a bigger bunch of prima donnas IMHO.

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Your morality dictates that gay marriage is a right. Their morality dictates that it is an abomination. They're simply two different moral codes. One happens to coincide with a religious text. It's all quite arbitrary.

As is the application of MOST of today's Christian morals. It's amazing how dramatically many Christian ethics change, and yet their is this belief held that it's always been immutable.

They rationalize war, are anti-abortion, or anti-booze or whatever -- and it's not consistent.

When the grape blight hit France -- all the vineyards were wiped out. It was the Monks in California that sent back grape vines to replant. And prohibition nearly destroyed those grapes but it was REALLY HARD to go against monks and the whole Jesus turning Water into Wine and claim that you are doing this for Christ -- so they guardedly tolerated it until the push-back and the end of prohibition.

Most people wouldn't argue against women's rights or that slavery is wrong today -- but you know, 100 years ago? That same Bible and many Christians believed it was supported and the word of God. Amazing how humans change the absolute, unambiguous word of God.

Like the vague prohibitions against "man laying with a man" in a few spots of the Bible -- but then ignoring the fact that the New Testament is supposed to re-write the book (arbitrarily adopting the NEW and keeping the OLD where the whim strikes them). It's really hard for me not to notice that Lott slept with all his daughters and that the wife turned to a pillar of salt for MERELY looking back at God's wrath. It's pretty kinky in parts and not the sort of thing kids should be reading until they have a bit of life experience and judgement -- maybe after 18.

originally posted by: Grimpachi

originally posted by: votan
It's trendy to slam on religion particularly Christianity. Go get em bandwagon tigers you show them Christians!

I hope you do not think Christianity is the only belief that has been singled out.

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both there (England) and in New England."--- Benjamin Franklin

I always noted that the Romans used to feed Christians to the lions, and then after they adopted Christianity, they changed outfits and the now Christian Romans fed the Jews to the lions. Same sport; different team name. The aspects of their many Gods ended up imbued in one saint or another. I suppose they figured if "you can't beat 'em, co-opt them and do the same damn stuff."

By the way; Athena or Artemis, became Mother Mary over time -- who was a HUGE figure in the early days of Christianity and feudalism to try and co-opt all the fertility and woman-oriented belief systems. The female goddess had a crown of eggs (like an inverted basket) -- I suppose that's where the "Easter Rabbit depositing colored eggs" comes from.

So they Religion of Christ which was humility and nonviolence and non-judgement, got turned into the same old philosophy that supported an empire going about it's business of domination. But hey, that is the way of things. Religion was kind of inevitable in humans and many seem to engage in wishful philosophies regardless of what you call them -- ripe to be absorbed into the next cult or fashion trend.

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Your morality dictates that gay marriage is a right. Their morality dictates that it is an abomination. They're simply two different moral codes. One happens to coincide with a religious text. It's all quite arbitrary.

Their morality is hypocritical then, because it is based on a few passages in Leviticus that they selectively interpret literally, while not holding the rest of those commandments to the same standards.

a reply to: Barcs

Not only is it hypocritical for those reasons but the Catholic Church, which no matter any modern Christians attitude towards it, it WAS Christianity in Europe for a millennia and a half but I digress... The Catholic Church did in fact perform and sanctify same sex marriages for roughly 1000 years. They did this in the church and the union was performed and blessed by a priest with all appropriate sacraments. These ceremonies were performed by the Church of Rome until the 14 th century and by the Byzantine Church until the 18th century.

a reply to: VitriolAndAngst

Bull turds. We said the pledge of allegiance with God included when I was in school and I started When Kennedy was in office. All that time it's been one nation under God indivisible. With liberty and justice for all.
The thing is, its not one nation under Jesus. It's not one nation under Christ. It's one nation under God. Just generic God.
The problem I see is that too many are saying it's my God they're talking about and to them that means Jesus. That just means a lot of Americans are Christian. Not that America is a Christian nation. There's a difference if you analyze the statement.

The rest of that crap. Well to do women who got knocked up?¿ Not enough to fill even one convent and that's just so ridiculous I'm not sure to laugh or cry that you've been taught this .
Your entire post is just too absurd. Where did this come from?

originally posted by: AutumnWitch657
That just means a lot of Americans are Christian. Not that America is a Christian nation. There's a difference if you analyze the statement.

Not to argue with you, but can you articulate the difference? I have asked for the definition of "Christian Nation", but have never gotten it. I would really like to hear the difference between the two:

1. America is a Christian Nation.
2. The majority of people in the US are Christian.

I even asked the question once, here (10 years ago!) : www.abovetopsecret.com...

One person had a good answer... that a Christian Nation would be one that bases their entire system of government on the concepts & precepts of the Christian religion.

That makes sense to me... but we don't. So, I'm not sure what the proponents of "This is a Christian Nation" really mean... Do you know?

Thanks.

a reply to: [post=19401743]Benevolent Heretic[/post
Christian nation: Christianity is the state sanctioned religion. You didn't really need that did you?

originally posted by: AutumnWitch657
a reply to: [post=19401743]Benevolent Heretic[/post
Christian nation: Christianity is the state sanctioned religion. You didn't really need that did you?

Sorry I asked... People seem to get offended when I ask this question. I really don't get it...

There are MANY people who say that this is a Christian nation, and they believe it with a fervency. CLEARLY, Christianity is NOT state-sanctioned, so what do they mean? I'm not asking you for an answer, but if anyone else wants to give it a try, I'm open.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

A better term would be a nation hijacked by Christians. That is exactly what happened for a 70 year+ period. We are the hangover of this era, I'm just glad it is over.

originally posted by: Barcs
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

A better term would be a nation hijacked by Christians. That is exactly what happened for a 70 year+ period. We are the hangover of this era, I'm just glad it is over.

I like that term

They are kicking and screaming as they lose power they never should have had in the first place.

a reply to: theNLBS

The founding fathers were Judeo Christian

a reply to: warren408

Thomas Jefferson wasn't. Neither was Ben Franklin or Thomas Paine. Many of the Founding Fathers were Deists.

originally posted by: warren408

The founding fathers were Judeo Christian

Even if that was true, which it's not, they did NOT create a nation founded on Christianity. They created a nation that was Neutral toward all Religion so that it could protect all Religion equally. You cannot have "Freedom of Religion" at the same time as you have Christianity established as the Nations Religion.

Why you may ask??? Well, that's easy.

Because one of the Rules or Commandments in Christianity is that you are not allowed to worship any other God(s). That being the case it would be impossible to have both "Freedom of Religion" and an "Christianity as the Nations Religion" at the same time.

This has become evident over time as well by the Christian majority gaining more and more power over the Government and trying to insert itself as the only Religion for this nation. They are now losing some of that control and are throwing a fit over it which is why the founders didn't want that here.

I am so glad to see this post...
Not because I am different than most of the people in the USA , ( not saying I am Atheist ) , but because in my opinion, If people believe in god , and jesus .. and reading the bible every day , going to the church, why they aren't listening what jesus just fu_cking said ??? If I would be a believer I would not believe in any church , any organization , just take his word... A reminder what jesus said about to build churches , and kneeling in front of priests ...
Anyway I don't believe even he was a true story , they changed it many times our history.. And again religion is not a history ! This is the point when people get confused! The only REALLY proof of something "above us" when Native Americans ( we call them Indians) stated as " Sky People" or "Sky Nation"... If jesus was real ,, he was a healer , than I am as well. Not a strong one yet , but I can pull something out to help on others. But, I know others , they are strong and They are really doing miracles . Just couple of weeks ago one of my healer friend save my dad's life , healing him and make him stronger. Not 100% healthy , but gave him back something he lost long time ago, and gave him hope, also he was scheduled for a surgery , and when he went to the hospital guess what, his doctor said , he doesn't need a surgery .... So the reason the word of Atheist is wrong , because it is closing out any certain way to believe in a higher power. What I " believe" is not any god or jesus , or a person, I know it is in you. It is a sense , you are able to read people's mind, heal, communicate without speak , etc.. Is it related to any god? No. Are we special? F_uck NO! Other species above our intelligence level ? Yes... They were here before us? Yes... Are we sort of slaves ? Yes... Are we losing it ? No, if you believe what I believe , that if you are not a sheep , you are different, and stronger , so they can't take it over .

Back to the started topic, and I am sorry if I did a big turn around,so here is my favorite article about the Founding Fathers: freethought.mbdojo.com...

The funny thing is, I don't judge , or try to scare people if they are believing in their god or jesus ... or whatever 50 or more gods have in their mind.
My point is , I don't try to scare people with things like : they will burn for forever after their death , or they will go to the hell if they believe in their gods , so my question is for you christian people, why the f_uck you are still pulling that "scare tactic" in the 21th century ????

PS, I edited my post to fix some spelling mistake.

a reply to: Barcs

Logic cannot be applied to any morality. Morals are assumptions. They are axioms. The whole concept of a morality being "hypocritical" dodges the more important observation that no morality stands on logical grounds.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

It's quite simple - by "Christian Nation", those people mean a nation where the "dominant" religion is Christianity. Others take it to mean something having to do with state sanctioning of a religion. Arbitrary, wishy-washy definitions should not be the basis of an investigative video ..

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

Logic cannot be applied to any morality.

Sure it can. "Watch my back and I'll watch your back." Common sense.

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
a reply to: Barcs

Logic cannot be applied to any morality. Morals are assumptions. They are axioms. The whole concept of a morality being "hypocritical" dodges the more important observation that no morality stands on logical grounds.

That doesn't make any sense.

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

It's quite simple - by "Christian Nation", those people mean a nation where the "dominant" religion is Christianity.

Wouldn't you feel a bit silly if at some point in the future the population of Americans are 51% Muslims and you call this nation "Islamic nation".

Or if there are 33% of Christians, 33% of Muslims and 33% of Buddhists living here in America. What would you call it then? Inquiring minds want to know.