NLBS #48: The United States Is Not, And Never Was, A Christian Nation

originally posted by: Leonidas
a reply to: Philippines

That is one of the most outrageous comments in this thread, and that is saying something. The Missionary goal of "Kill the Indian, save the man" is not looked at favourably by any of the nations. I find your claim of "indigenous folk" who are "thankful for being saved from themselves" highly dubious at best.

Native Americans were no more "Barbaric and Savage" than European settlers and most had a far more enlightened view of the role of EVERYONE in the society, including women.

The assumption that Christian Superiority was ever legitimate is something the remaining indigenous tribes of North America are still trying to recover from in the 21st Century.

I have to agree. I have not ever heard of a Native American thanking Christians for "saving them from themselves". Do folks forget what happened the first time the Appalachian trail was explored? Natives were punished by the settlers because they had never heard of Jesus. To them it was unimaginable due to the extreme views of Christianity at the time, and how it was forced on everybody by the sword. A common practice during this exploration of the trail was chopping off both of their arms and legs and leaving them to die in agony. But yeah, the settlers were SO MUCH MORE CIVILIZED. Thank GOD for them doing that.

originally posted by: Jobeycool
Do people ever stop arguing over this nonsense when Christian heritage is all over the place in this country.Like zombies and robots arguing.

Sure is like in the Declaration of Independence.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

www.founding.com...

The creator.

That isn't government. That is a divine being. Even though they did not specificaly call he/she GOD.

Then followed that legendary document up with the constitution.

Specifically the first amendment.

Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

www.law.cornell.edu...

The US was not a secular country as some people think. IF it were the first amendment would be vastly different.

If people wanted to believe they could.

IF they didn't they could.

The !st was set up in such a way that no single religion would dominate like in Europe at the time.

And of course the pilgrims, and many that followed came to this country to escape religious persecution.

And that heritage is all around us.

From Plymouth rock to all parts in between.

a reply to: Barcs

I never grow tired of posting this essay.

Remarks Concerning the Savages of North America

And the nonsense debating goes round and round round and round round and round.

The nonsense debating goes round and round all day long.

I have to chuckle - of all the religions out there, it is Christianity that takes a beating on forums like this. I'm not religious and have no dog in this fight, but it's pretty obvious that Christianity is the easy whipping boy nowadays. You'd think that with the evils being perpetrated in the name of Islam right now (essentially modern-day Islamic Crusades), it would be Christianity which is placed on a pedestal.

And as I said earlier, the title of this thread is deliberately misleading. It's like saying English isn't our official language. Yes, that is technically correct, but for all intents and purposes, all government matters are conducted in English.

Our country was founded by Christian refugees and was then populated by literally every type of Christian the world has ever seen. The country was a melting pot not only racially and culturally, but was also a melting pot of predominantly Christian religions all with their pet peeves. So the NLBS buffoons can blabber on about how we're not a Christian nation, but when more than 70% of the population identifies themselves as Christian, the statement is truly meaningless and only intended to stir up controversy. NLBS used to be good, but now it's just wannabe hacks.

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

So pointing out a lie that Christians are spreading about US History is "beating up on Christians"? Interesting...

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

This country is a nation of Christians; not a Christian nation. One is secular; the other is a theocracy. One is the truth the other is a lie that started in the 1930's .

a reply to: Krazysh0t

All religions are guilty of misdeeds, period. I'm sure you don't trip over yourself to heap criticism on Islam like you do Christianity. It's cool to hate Christians, but not cool to hate Muslims. That's truly what this boils down to.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Who cares? You're mincing words. Nation of Christians vs Christian Nation. And of course, the NLBS didn't even bother to define what they mean by "Nation of X" vs "X Nation". They're just stirring the pot for views, as per usual.

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

No it boils down to Christians promoting a lie about US History. You can distract from the issue all you want by trying to drag Muslims into this (and trust me, they aren't any better, they just don't have NEARLY as big an impact on this country as Christians do), but that doesn't change the fact that the nation NEVER WAS a Christian nation. It's just a lie, and to willingly promote it as truth is a HUGE disservice to the kids you are teaching. Not to mention it creates an artificial intelligence gap between the people who actually know the truth and the people who know the lie.

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

Islam is doing the same things today, that Christians use to do back when their religion was in its younger days. People treat Christianity as the whipping boy because of its history. Christianity use to treat all non believers and freethinkers as whipping boys and kept the western world in a stranglehold for nearly a 1500 years, probably more. I can't imagine all of the potentially great minds that were executed in hypocrisy because they realized Christianity might not be the absolute truth. The history of Christianity is sickening to me, and Jesus would have never stood for that. Extremist Islam today is no better, but Christians still try to get their views published into law and campaign for teaching ID in science class, so they really bring it upon themselves.

"Christian nation" is about how the government conducts its affairs and makes laws, not about who specifically founded it or the amount of Christians living in the country. We are a secular government, not a Christian one. I'd expect a Christian nation to make laws and policies that enforce this religion as the official state religion. It's like if 5 Hebrews got together and built a book store that sold all kinds of literature (not strictly in reference to Judiasm). It wouldn't be a Jewish book store. It would only be considered a Jewish book store if it strictly offered Jewish novels and literature. I look at the government in the same way. Politicians may try to lobby for Christian influence on laws, politics and education, but the laws of this country go against that.

Our country was founded by Christian refugees and was then populated by literally every type of Christian the world has ever seen.

It was also populated by practically every other type of religion the world has ever seen. You're not really saying anything with that statement.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Again, this is just silliness. Christian Nation vs Nation of Christians. Who cares? It was predominantly Christian, still is predominantly Christian, and will probably remain so for the next century. You may say it's not the official religion, but for all intents and purposes, the prevailing religion is Christianity. Why is this so hard to fathom?

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

No I'm not. It's quite clear what one means and what the other means if you think about it. In any case, go read the link I provided about this myth.

Here's another source (I posted it earlier in the thread):
A Christian Nation? Since When?

Back in the 1930s, business leaders found themselves on the defensive. Their public prestige had plummeted with the Great Crash; their private businesses were under attack by Franklin D. Roosevelt’s New Deal from above and labor from below. To regain the upper hand, corporate leaders fought back on all fronts. They waged a figurative war in statehouses and, occasionally, a literal one in the streets; their campaigns extended from courts of law to the court of public opinion. But nothing worked particularly well until they began an inspired public relations offensive that cast capitalism as the handmaiden of Christianity.

The two had been described as soul mates before, but in this campaign they were wedded in pointed opposition to the “creeping socialism” of the New Deal. The federal government had never really factored into Americans’ thinking about the relationship between faith and free enterprise, mostly because it had never loomed that large over business interests. But now it cast a long and ominous shadow.

Accordingly, throughout the 1930s and ’40s, corporate leaders marketed a new ideology that combined elements of Christianity with an anti-federal libertarianism. Powerful business lobbies like the United States Chamber of Commerce and the National Association of Manufacturers led the way, promoting this ideology’s appeal in conferences and P.R. campaigns. Generous funding came from prominent businessmen, from household names like Harvey Firestone, Conrad Hilton, E. F. Hutton, Fred Maytag and Henry R. Luce to lesser-known leaders at U.S. Steel, General Motors and DuPont.

In a shrewd decision, these executives made clergymen their spokesmen. As Sun Oil’s J. Howard Pew noted, polls proved that ministers could mold public opinion more than any other profession. And so these businessmen worked to recruit clergy through private meetings and public appeals. Many answered the call, but three deserve special attention.

The Rev. James W. Fifield — known as “the 13th Apostle of Big Business” and “Saint Paul of the Prosperous” — emerged as an early evangelist for the cause. Preaching to pews of millionaires at the elite First Congregational Church in Los Angeles, Mr. Fifield said reading the Bible was “like eating fish — we take the bones out to enjoy the meat. All parts are not of equal value.” He dismissed New Testament warnings about the corrupting nature of wealth. Instead, he paired Christianity and capitalism against the New Deal’s “pagan statism.”

Through his national organization, Spiritual Mobilization, founded in 1935, Mr. Fifield promoted “freedom under God.” By the late 1940s, his group was spreading the gospel of faith and free enterprise in a mass-circulated monthly magazine and a weekly radio program that eventually aired on more than 800 stations nationwide. It even encouraged ministers to preach sermons on its themes in competitions for cash prizes. Liberals howled at the group’s conflation of God and greed; in 1948, the radical journalist Carey McWilliams denounced it in a withering exposé. But Mr. Fifield exploited such criticism to raise more funds and redouble his efforts.

Keep reading the rest of the article. It lays it all out quite nicely.

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Again, this is just silliness. Christian Nation vs Nation of Christians. Who cares? It was predominantly Christian, still is predominantly Christian, and will probably remain so for the next century. You may say it's not the official religion, but for all intents and purposes, the prevailing religion is Christianity. Why is this so hard to fathom?

I fathom it just fine. I have no problem admitting that Christianity is the majority religion. That's why I called the nation a nation of Christian. I DO have a problem with Christians trying to use their dogma and religious beliefs to pass laws and legislation, which is against the Constitution.

a reply to: Barcs

You're dragging up atrocities from centuries and millennia ago when Islamists are carrying out equally horrible acts as we speak. Yet, here we are talking about whether the US is a Christian Nation of a Nation of Christians. Waste of time. I'm sure there are people in your lineage somewhere down the line who were absolutely ruthless, horrible people. Should I hold you responsible for that?

We all know the US doesn't have an official language, nor an official religion. We understand that. References to God are agnostic. We get it. You don't need to repeat yourself. This all started with a lousy NLBS with a lousy title to whip up the viewers. You can fixate on irrelevant issues like whether the religion is "official" as much as you like. It matters not when the vast majority of Americans identify as Christians. It only matters to people like you who have an axe to grind against a certain religion. Moving on ..

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Lol. So if there is a law against murder and the Bible prohibits murder, is it a religious law? Unless you see a legal document reference Jesus, you've got no case. A country comprised of predominantly Christians will have a legal system which is more or less compatible with basic Christian morality. That's what they'll vote for. You're so wrapped up in technicalities that you're missing the reality that religious dogma affects voters and voters affect law.

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

That isn't a valid point. You'd be hard pressed to find ANY country that tolerates murder, even the non-Christian ones. I think it is safe to assume that isn't a solely Christian belief. MY problem is when Christians try to legislate with solely Christian beliefs. Ex: Gay marriage.

By the way, a big giveaway that the law in question is a religious law or not is if the ones advocating for it use the "It's in the Bible" defense as one of their sole reasons for making it law. There is nothing wrong with making something into law that happens to be in the bible, that also happens to be a good idea (your example of murder is one of these), but things like gay marriage where the entire argument for keeping it illegal is a religious one, THEN you have a problem.

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
a reply to: Barcs

You're dragging up atrocities from centuries and millennia ago when Islamists are carrying out equally horrible acts as we speak. Yet, here we are talking about whether the US is a Christian Nation of a Nation of Christians. Waste of time. I'm sure there are people in your lineage somewhere down the line who were absolutely ruthless, horrible people. Should I hold you responsible for that?

I wasn't holding modern Christians responsible for the atrocities of the past, I was explaining why folks speak against it so often, particularly atheists and agnostics. It would be irresponsible for us to forget those atrocities and pretend it was all teddy bears and rainbows. Asking us to forget those atrocities is like asking african americans to forget slavery. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, right? I never understood why people get so offended when history is brought up, as if it means nothing and is a form of persecution. Islam is a red herring in this discussion, as it is primarily about our government, which is secular.

You can fixate on irrelevant issues like whether the religion is "official" as much as you like. It matters not when the vast majority of Americans identify as Christians. It only matters to people like you who have an axe to grind against a certain religion. Moving on ..

All I'm saying is that this is the context in which they are referring when they say "Christian nation". If you wish to suggest that it means anything else, you are in the wrong thread, since that is how they applied it to mean in the video. If this is a waste of time why did you respond and stir the pot even more? It matters because the idea of a christian nation is demonstrably false in the context they used and they referred to the lie that was started in the 30s about this country.

Most modern countries have laws against murder. It isn't strictly a Christian standpoint. The majority of folks here think murder is wrong, even hardcore atheists. Another terrible argument.

You do not need a religion to know what is right or wrong

As such Law is/should represent a form of order
If you have Law your freedom is restricted by Law and for good reason ... Should we be free to kill or rob

But Law should protect the individuals right to Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness

All of which has nothing to do with religious dogma and control