NLBS #48: The United States Is Not, And Never Was, A Christian Nation

a reply to: theNLBS

I thought this NLBS episode had some very good points and argues effectively that we are not a Christian nation. The founding fathers made it a point to have the US Constitution forbid any religious affiliation. If you look at the first settlers of America, it was people who were trying to escape religious persecution by their home countries.

The majority of the first colonists may have been Christian but it is important to note that they came here for freedom to believe and practice what they want. Religious affiliation of governments creates a tyrannical regime and the founders knew this because of Britian and other countries history. I don't think it is of any coincidence that since we started calling ourselves a Christian nation the rise of radical Islam began.

originally posted by: votan
It's trendy to slam on religion particularly Christianity. Go get em bandwagon tigers you show them Christians!

I hope you do not think Christianity is the only belief that has been singled out.

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both there (England) and in New England."--- Benjamin Franklin

a reply to: windword

Maybe so but it doesn't change the fact they were christian.

originally posted by: soulpowertothendegree
a reply to: windword

Maybe so but it doesn't change the fact they were christian.

Many of them were Deists.

Of the Religion of Deism Compared with the Christian Religion by Thomas Paine

Goodness. This has gotten way off topic. We're not debating Christianity itself, but it's correlation into the founding of the nation. Of which, I see nothing but lies and deceit. Our "forefathers" are far from innocent too. Don't kid yourself.

a reply to: jaymp

Are there any historical figures, or countries for that matter, who have a clean slate? I can't think of any.

Just thought I'd throw my two cents in:

I'm not sure I understand why anyone is trying to split hairs.

It is a qualitative analysis that you chase after.... Certainly, Muslim countries have shown that there is a different way to have a working constitution.

Influence of Christian scripture on your constitution is nevertheless a qualitative analysis. Certainly, if we were to compare it to the rules of engagement of the dogs' constitution, or a cat's constitution - it is as different as night and day versus the similarities you see between Christianity and the US constitution.

But, I fail to see how you can make it a quantifiable result and thus conclude this never-ending argument.

Not that I'm not Christian - I happen to be. I believe that the idea that you won't step on anybody's toes is not correct. The predominant definition of marriage is just a case in example: It is well known that the "system" frowns on polygamy - a practice that the middle east employs a lot - (which is not that un-Christian either, because David, Solomon... did that too and weren't faulted for it specifically, though worshipping women did go over the acceptable bar for these too). Polygamy is generally unsupported even by the various governments forms you have to fill out - everywhere the assumption exists that there is a man and a wife and even that is changing now.

I wonder what the future will be like? There is a more important argument lurking - unified thinking versus freedom - discuss the generally juxtaposed nature of the possibilities. Perhaps it already exists.

Perhaps I will write more sometime... I don't think I will be able to keep up with the responses though. I had a hard time getting through 15 pages of reading.

a reply to: Gorman91

You can be be non religious and yet believe in a Supreme Being
Ask a Mason

A Non Religious Nation such as the USA ... Does not impose religious law

Atheism believes in nothing in that respect

a reply to: Gorman91

One can be secular and non religious
One can have a belief and not be bound by religious law or ritual

originally posted by: Gorman91
a
I really don't think a committee member is the same as the president of the united states, no offense. My university president was a committee member to the president. I very much so doubt she was sworn in on a bible, if even sworn in at all.

The point is no one is sworn in on a Bible as a requirement.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

For the most part you are correct. However there is one major flaw in your explanation. It was not white racism that put the Native Americans under the boot. It was Christian intolerance. Christians considered the Native Americans savages, heathens and heretics. A majority of early America's social ills had roots in Christianity. In the early periods of colonialism the white christian Europeans considered every race they encountered that was not Christian little more than sub-human peoples to be conquered and enslaved. Jews and Muslims were treated slightly better because of earlier Christian contact with those cultures but they had no qualms about conquering those cultures if they could.

In closing, the fact that Europeans are white had little to do with the treatment of natives on distant continents. The true motivation for the European actions was they were Christians and the natives of distant lands were not. In the age of exploration and colonization Christianity has a sad history of completely disregarding the human rights of any non christian alien culture encountered. I could go on with numerous examples but I won't because the history is easily accessible.

If people want to claim that America is a nation founded on Christian principles....fine. I will demand that those same people take responsibility for the many evils committed against the native Americans all in the name of "Christianity".

originally posted by: My_Reality
a reply to: Krazysh0t

For the most part you are correct. However there is one major flaw in your explanation. It was not white racism that put the Native Americans under the boot. It was Christian intolerance. Christians considered the Native Americans savages, heathens and heretics. A majority of early America's social ills had roots in Christianity. In the early periods of colonialism the white christian Europeans considered every race they encountered that was not Christian little more than sub-human peoples to be conquered and enslaved. Jews and Muslims were treated slightly better because of earlier Christian contact with those cultures but they had no qualms about conquering those cultures if they could.

In closing, the fact that Europeans are white had little to do with the treatment of natives on distant continents. The true motivation for the European actions was they were Christians and the natives of distant lands were not. In the age of exploration and colonization Christianity has a sad history of completely disregarding the human rights of any non christian alien culture encountered. I could go on with numerous examples but I won't because the history is easily accessible.

If people want to claim that America is a nation founded on Christian principles....fine. I will demand that those same people take responsibility for the many evils committed against the native Americans all in the name of "Christianity".

This sounds similar to the way Christians treated the indigenous here in the mountains. The invaders could not win by violence, so Christian missionaries converted people by convincing them their ways were savage and barbaric. They also introduced modern Western medicine to help convince the indigenous that their God is superior.

I've had local indigenous folk tell me on many occasions that Christianity saved them from themselves. It's hard to argue with them on that front. I don't agree, and they won't think otherwise.

originally posted by: soulpowertothendegree
a reply to: windword

Maybe so but it doesn't change the fact they were christian.

They were also slave-owners, so what's your point?

A country formed by Christians does mean it is a Christian country.

a reply to: Philippines

That is one of the most outrageous comments in this thread, and that is saying something. The Missionary goal of "Kill the Indian, save the man" is not looked at favourably by any of the nations. I find your claim of "indigenous folk" who are "thankful for being saved from themselves" highly dubious at best.

Native Americans were no more "Barbaric and Savage" than European settlers and most had a far more enlightened view of the role of EVERYONE in the society, including women.

The assumption that Christian Superiority was ever legitimate is something the remaining indigenous tribes of North America are still trying to recover from in the 21st Century.

So we 'aren't' a christian nation eh.

Could have fooled me.

We got the preachers though we call them politicians constantly trying to convert us to their cause.

We 'give' offerings to them like the collection plate though we call them taxes.

We have government and it's congressmen preaching morality constantly.

We have 'holy' wars like crusades on drugs,crime,poverty, and 'terrorists', and now climate change.

If NLBS says we aren't a 'christian' nation then I guess we aren't.

Although we sure do live under what most people call 'organized religion'.

It's just never called one.

Regardless of the beliefs the founding fathers had, typically every poll in the 19th , 20th , and now early 21st century show the vast number of people in the USA who adhere to a religious belief cite a form of Christianity as there faith. To me that makes this a christian country.

a reply to: fartsmeller46

Even if 100% of Americans are Christians, it will still not make this nation Christian. Nation of Christians would be more appropriate.

Our government is secular.

a reply to: artistpoet

I knew I shouldn't have taken those crean buns from that five year old...

Thanks for very good topic. This was the first BS thread i read/watched. Thus i'm not american I find this very intresting. I like to keep an eye on your politics cause there are so much hilarity involved. It has always puzzled me why EVERY president canditate in US must make some religulous statements before elections. Attend church seremonies etc. I'm living in a country witch flag has a cross in it and not much else. If here canditate makes big number of his/her faith during elections its more likely to cause him/her decline in ratings.

For me it seems quite sad that in todays US there is so much debate about presidental canditates religious views. If you take for example those guys that really believe that Obama is some secret muslim. That is hilarious, because it really should NOT matter even if it was true. The same folk who fear that Obama is going to declare sharia law in US would like nothing more than force their own christian sharia laws to every other US citicens.

And for the topic. Though there is no question in my mind about the accuracy of this threads starting analysis and points it makes I still feel that even if separation of church and state wasn't enforced by founding faters it wouldn't matter in todays world. I surely wouldn't like to live in some sharia law society, even in christian sharia law.

Do people ever stop arguing over this nonsense when Christian heritage is all over the place in this country.Like zombies and robots arguing.