Why did God create evil?

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: bobs_uruncle

Exercising faith is a act of free will .Faith being ,trust in something that can be reasonably believed .

You can't make one thing free will and all the rest not, it doesn't work that way. It's either all free will or none at all. Since this reality is preordained/predetermined according to God's alleged Word, I think we have proven there is no free will according to God's alleged Word.

There are logical 3 solutions to this problem;

1. you can have free will, no God and a random reality

2. you can have God with a preordained virtual reality and no free will

3. you can have God, free will and a random reality IF you throw away all of the religious teaching, because the authors lied about the preordained thing. You would have to admit that ALL religion has been deceptive and because of that you really can't believe anything they tell you which subsequently negates their portrayal of God. A little paradoxical mental masturbation there ;-)

I chose number 2 because I believe a Creator would be pretty clever and would want defined and predictable outcomes within His system, whatever its ultimate purpose.

Chose your poison ;-)

Free will and predetermined/preordained are literally polar opposites, they are mutually exclusive.

Cheers - Dave

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
I think it's similar with this virtual reality. If a high percentage of whatever we are, our actual minds, realize that this is a confidence game and we lose confidence, we understand that this isn't real, then this virtual reality will collapse. And maybe that's part of the purpose of this exercise, maybe mass enlightenment and the subsequent construct failure are built into the system. Like a fail safe or reboot. Who knows.... we can only guess.

I like the way you describe our plight. It is a virtual reality in the sense that it is just all of us animating the illusion of being independent entities - and in any given moment, each of us with a particular point-of-view generated by the mechanism of attention, that continuously supports the illusion.

It is clear that reality is not what any individual point-of-view makes it out to be. Reality necessarily transcends all of our limited points-of-view, and it is only when we release this separative mechanism of attention at its root, does reality become obvious - beyond all points-of-view. Attention is the point-of-view mechanism that generates the illusion of separation and separate objects, moment to moment.

And yes, I agree with you, that as more and more people recognize this self-generated activity to be gears in the machine, the self-deluding machine will collapse, and we will enjoy our lives free of illusion, in and as the bright Reality that is already the case. Then it is not a question of free will, it is simply free.

a reply to: bobs_uruncle

You may not be understanding ....

When comparing Molinism vs. Calvinism, one can quickly note how many Christian leaders favor the Reformed view in their theology, believing God is the primary agent causing all things. However, one’s affirmation that God is actively responsible for all that happens creates several theological difficulties, not the least of which is His responsibility for the evil we see in our world. Dr. Craig here lists five major problems the advocate of divine causal determinism faces, and why in the debate of Molinism vs Calvinism, middle knowledge offers a solution to the mystery of God’s predestination and man’s free will.

Read more: www.reasonablefaith.org...

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: bobs_uruncle

You may not be understanding ....

When comparing Molinism vs. Calvinism, one can quickly note how many Christian leaders favor the Reformed view in their theology, believing God is the primary agent causing all things. However, one’s affirmation that God is actively responsible for all that happens creates several theological difficulties, not the least of which is His responsibility for the evil we see in our world. Dr. Craig here lists five major problems the advocate of divine causal determinism faces, and why in the debate of Molinism vs Calvinism, middle knowledge offers a solution to the mystery of God’s predestination and man’s free will.

Read more: www.reasonablefaith.org...

Yes, I think I understand perfectly well.

According to molinism, God created everything and gave us free will. But, God knows everything we are going to do and everything that will happen until the end of time (He's seen this movie before). Therefore, religion claims both the omnipotence of God in knowing everything, past, present and future and the bestowing of free will.

Is that correct?

If so, it is a paradox. God gives free will, but He knows everything that will happen, therefore the future is preordained, therefore there can be no free will since all choices and all actions are already predetermined. By your logic, or molinism, one person can destroy God's entire plan by making a choice God isn't aware of. WTF? I learned a long time ago that if one can destroy a thing, one can control a thing, which makes one more powerful than the "thing."

It's very similar to the paradox of "Can God being omnipotent create a stone so heavy that He can't lift it?" Any answer in any combination of yes yes, yes no, no yes or no no, produces the negation of omnipotence. Stating that God knows the past, present and future and yet supplied us pleebs with boots on the ground with free will, takes away God's omnipotence.

I believe there is a Creator and He/She is like one totally rad being, major mathematician, incredible programmer with a major flair for graphic arts and I'll bet He/She is doing this all out of their basement or garage. Somebody I could respect. Like serious, I give the Dude/Dudette credit, you people seem to just want to throw paradoxes around which takes His/Her omnipotence away. By assigning all of us free will which could destroy God's plan, you are actually raising people above the level of God and denying His plan (I'm gettin' all fire 'n brimestone on yer ass now LOL).

Btw, a little aside as you mentioned jesuits... Did you know that pierre elliot trudeau, a prime minister of Canada (I'd call him a traitor) was a trained as a jesuit priest and he was the one that sold the bank of Canada out to the IMF/shareholder banks, installed wall street cronies as bank governors in 1975 and sold every Canadian's future down the river? I don't have a much respect for the pope's jesuits or for that matter, trudeau's present spawn in politics, justin(itforme).

Cheers - Dave

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: Krazysh0t

It may not intrinsically be about good and evil...

But they fall under the bracket of free will.
& McDonalds is pretty evil Krazy... Shame on you

Why do you think you have 'free will'?

a reply to: bobs_uruncle

I am not a big fan of the Jesuits either but have to say that although a origination can have it's nefarious reasons for existing there are some genuine people can be found in them .Much like lawyers , politicians and the justice dept . Heck I think corruption can raise it's head pretty much anywhere . As for the predetermination doctrine ,I will say for me personally that I once was perplexed because of the two opposing standard views until I looked at monolism . Prior to that I was left with having to take it as a mystery .

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: enlightenedservant


LOL So you admit you don't know anything about the religion but have already concluded that it's wrong? And also that I wouldn't be able to recognize contradictions YOU don't even know exist? Is that how the scientific process works? Well then, kind sir, carry on...

Does it rely on the belief in a god without evidence? Yes. Is it an organized religion? Yes. It is wrong. The dogma is just the finer details.

EDIT: Ah, that voice in my head told me not to let this opportunity slip. If you actually want to learn the truth about Islam so you can debate & destroy me, start with the Qur'an itself. Nothing overrules the Qur'an and if something else conflicts with it, the Qur'an is always the correct one. Here's a site that has 5 translations of the Qur'an, all side by side (I prefer the Pickthall translation but to each his own).

All good things in time. I learn things in a haphazard way on this website. I've been meaning to get around to Islam since so many seem to question why I don't debate it. Though I have at times tried to argue as vague as possible in reference to religion.

HERE YOU GO!!! This way, you won't go read up on some Wahabi nonsense & get the wrong impression of what Islam actually stands for. I won't mind if you call me out w/questions or debate challenges either cuz I'm nice like that

I'll look into it. Promise.

Thanks. And I appreciate the civil response, too. It's pretty obvious that there will be things you won't agree with partially because you seem to be against the concept of religion in general. However, I'm hoping you'll at least see that many of the arguments you may have an issue with don't appear in Islam at all. Gotta know your "opponents" before you can fight them, right? Though I don't actually consider you an opponent & hope you won't see me as one either. Just some friendly dialogue.

For instance, we don't believe God has created anything in His image. We don't believe any of the prophets were divine either. We do believe many of them were allowed to perform miracles, but only when God specifically allowed it. And we believe those prophets were usually considered frauds, tricksters, or magicians by their opponents. And many of the restrictions, superstitions, & "extreme" things you hear about Islam have nothing to do with the Qur'an (which are God's exact words, not the Prophet Muhammad's). But we can save that for later

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
There are logical 3 solutions to this problem;

1. you can have free will, no God and a random reality

2. you can have God with a preordained virtual reality and no free will

3. you can have God, free will and a random reality IF you throw away all of the religious teaching, because the authors lied about the preordained thing. You would have to admit that ALL religion has been deceptive and because of that you really can't believe anything they tell you which subsequently negates their portrayal of God. A little paradoxical mental masturbation there ;-)

I chose number 2 because I believe a Creator would be pretty clever and would want defined and predictable outcomes within His system, whatever its ultimate purpose.

Chose your poison ;-)

Free will and predetermined/preordained are literally polar opposites, they are mutually exclusive.

Cheers - Dave

One always has the choice to either awaken as self-aware consciousness that we fundamentally are, or to stay asleep in the perceptual-conceptual illusions of mind. To persist in what we already are, consciousness itself, takes real surrender to Reality, rather than constantly choosing the endless patterns of perceptual-conceptual mind and thereby surrendering to that patterned destiny.

It is our choice moment to moment - do we separate from Reality into the illusions of mind or do we simply be what we already are - self-aware consciousness itself? Persisting as the latter allows Reality to reveal itself beyond this machine of mind.

Does this fit into your 3 options above? Probably not because there is no Creator-God - but that does not eliminate the Divine. All of this is a modification of the indivisible (non-separate) Divine Reality, but our identification with our point-of-view-making mind (attention) keeps us as cogs in this machine of illusions.

Our choice is to either transcend that identification via moment-to-moment surrender to the Divine Reality or surrender to the pattern of the machine.

In terms of Christianity, Jesus taught this esoteric non-dualism, but it was basically all but snuffed out by the exoteric needs of the state. However, there are some Christians who do understand what Jesus was actually teaching relative to transcending the machine of death via rebirth into the Divine Light above. So Christianity need not be destroyed - only properly understood and practiced.

Attempting to argue non-free-will from a position of non-free-will IS the only paradox...it IS a self-imposed limit of the will - self-imposed, using what?...non-free-will?

Å99

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
Thanks. And I appreciate the civil response, too. It's pretty obvious that there will be things you won't agree with partially because you seem to be against the concept of religion in general. However, I'm hoping you'll at least see that many of the arguments you may have an issue with don't appear in Islam at all. Gotta know your "opponents" before you can fight them, right? Though I don't actually consider you an opponent & hope you won't see me as one either. Just some friendly dialogue.

Don't worry. I understand the connotation behind the usage of the word "opponent" here. That is standard debate terminology. Just like you call a discussion an argument. It's funny how many people don't know those words and when you say that you are engaging them in an argument, they get defensive because they think that entails a shouting match.

I also agree with your expression that you have to know your opponents before you can debate them. Well you have to know your opponent's argument. It's not fair to create strawmans out of what you THINK your opponent is arguing about. That gets everyone no where. Hence why my Islam debates are rather weak. I don't have much to go on. I know a few certainties, but they will only keep a poor thinker down. Anyone worth their weight could argue around those points easily.

For instance, we don't believe God has created anything in His image. We don't believe any of the prophets were divine either. We do believe many of them were allowed to perform miracles, but only when God specifically allowed it. And we believe those prophets were usually considered frauds, tricksters, or magicians by their opponents. And many of the restrictions, superstitions, & "extreme" things you hear about Islam have nothing to do with the Qur'an (which are God's exact words, not the Prophet Muhammad's). But we can save that for later

Interesting. The thing is, I disagree with all miracles. I don't think they happen. They defy physics. So whether the person performing them is divine or the divine is working through the person, I still find them to be unbelievable. Why don't they happen in our day and age? With the recording capabilities we have across the planet, we should be able to get video of someone performing a legit miracle, but all we get are hoaxes and frauds.

a reply to: Seede

This is an interpretation that I've never seen before. For one, I thought all the cross breeds were wiped out with the great flood. For two, why are angels and humans genetically compatible anyways? With the way evolution works, God would have to go out of his way to make angels and humans genetically compatible. Forcing their evolutionary paths not to diverge too much. Then after all this effort, god makes the genetic result of cross breeding an unnatural sin and condemns them from birth. Heck, even if evolutionary theory is wrong, that STILL doesn't explain why god made it possible for angels and humans to cross breed.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
This is something that truly perplexes the mind. God is supposed to be the creator of everything. The universe, heaven, angels, hell, etc. God is supposed to be all that is good. We are supposed to strive towards God, so why did God need to create evil to juxtapose against His goodness? Couldn't God in His omnipotence have just created humans that intuitively appreciate good without evil to contrast it to?

Because God creates evil, this allows his angels to rebel against him and commit the ultimate sin against God. So more importantly, why did God let Satan and all the other betrayer angels survive knowing that they'd go on to tempt man in the ways of evil? Why didn't God destroy these betrayer angels on the spot? In the Old Testament, God isn't adverse to destroying whole cities for reprehensible evil, yet God can't bring himself to destroying angels that have committed the sin of war against God.

This allows these angels to supposedly go on and tempt man into the ways of evil. And again, we see God punishing man for falling to the temptations of these fallen angels (devils now). God doesn't ever hold these devils accountable for their actions. He just indiscriminately lays waste to large parts of the world killing sinner and believer alike for the actions that originated from a group that remains outside of judgment from God.

God does all this apparently so that when He has decided that evil has ran rampant throughout the earth for long enough, He can wage one final war against evil. But again, God is responsible for all of this. He created it. He allows it to continue. He could end it at any time. Sounds like a sick joke to me.

It's only a 'sick joke' if you accept every premise, and the conclusions drawn from them. Annihilationists are only sticking to a provided narrative that leads to only one conclusion...it would only be natural to accept (backwards) the concept of non-free-will, having accepted the narrative.

Å99

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: bobs_uruncle

I am not a big fan of the Jesuits either but have to say that although a origination can have it's nefarious reasons for existing there are some genuine people can be found in them .Much like lawyers , politicians and the justice dept . Heck I think corruption can raise it's head pretty much anywhere . As for the predetermination doctrine ,I will say for me personally that I once was perplexed because of the two opposing standard views until I looked at monolism . Prior to that I was left with having to take it as a mystery .

I guess mysteries are good, always liked them, at least that's what my brain tells me LOL.

Cheers - Dave

It's not not perplexing at all once you realize the qualities of God.

God is everything. If God is everything, God is both Good and Evil.

God created man in his image, right? Some men are evil. God created them that way. How could he create something "in his image," if he wasn't, at least in part, evil.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

This is an interpretation that I've never seen before. For one, I thought all the cross breeds were wiped out with the great flood. For two, why are angels and humans genetically compatible anyways? With the way evolution works, God would have to go out of his way to make angels and humans genetically compatible. Forcing their evolutionary paths not to diverge too much. Then after all this effort, god makes the genetic result of cross breeding an unnatural sin and condemns them from birth. Heck, even if evolutionary theory is wrong, that STILL doesn't explain why god made it possible for angels and humans to cross breed. edi

There were two rebellions of the heavenly angels. The first being the rebellion of a Satan referred to as a Lucifer and his host. This was before the garden episode of Adam. This group is believed to have been one third of the heavenly host. This group was cast out of the celestial realm and into the bowels of this world where they are bound till the last day. They are then cast into the ethereal fire of annihilation.

We then have another group of about 200 angels who came through a portal on mt. Herman in the days of Jared. This group mingled with the terrestrial creation and took women of this terrestrial creation as wives of sorts. The unions of these two creations eventually produced three races of cross bred creatures. First were giants which in turn then produced Nephillim which then in turn produced Elioud. These three races along with the Adamic race were four races.

I have no copy machine but can source this as in "The Cepher of Chanok" also called Enoch.

Yared (Jared) was born In 460th year after Adam. The flood of Noah was in the 1656th year after Adam. This is according to the Jewish time line encyclopedia. So this continued for well over 1500 years. The four races mentioned warred with one another and eventually became so corrupt that murder, eating of flesh and drinking blood was common place among all. Noah and sons were exonerated from this practice and had separated themselves from all of this culture.

The band of 200 angels who had started this deformed culture were bound also in the depths of Sheol for seventy generations and then released from their prison. The reason is unknown why God would do this as He has done. As the flood destroyed the flesh of all four races, the spirits of the three are allowed to inflict whatsoever they desire as teaching men to know good from evil. The spirits of Adam are bound in Sheol till judgment and reward.

Tradition informs us the power of angels are not truly known to men. As the angelic host came to the terrestrial realm their substance eventually changes from the purity of celestial to the corruption of celestial. Their powers are given as to their celestial rank. Some cannot do as other do even though their estate is celestial. This applies to those who were imprisoned as spirits in Sheol for those seventy generations. They had lost their covering and had become weak. They had lost their first estate as celestial and become naked spirits in the earth. These will eventually be destroyed with the earth in the last day never to ever regain their celestial estate. Their covering is changed but that covering is a mystery not given to us to understand. God gives no repentance to the celestial realm as they have seen, and experienced the Creator and chose their demise.

We have a tendency to understand, by our present culture teachings, and place DNA as our understanding of substance change but that is not the case in trying to understand celestial existence. Celestial existence is not necessarily of the terrestrial sciences.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
Thanks. And I appreciate the civil response, too. It's pretty obvious that there will be things you won't agree with partially because you seem to be against the concept of religion in general. However, I'm hoping you'll at least see that many of the arguments you may have an issue with don't appear in Islam at all. Gotta know your "opponents" before you can fight them, right? Though I don't actually consider you an opponent & hope you won't see me as one either. Just some friendly dialogue.

Don't worry. I understand the connotation behind the usage of the word "opponent" here. That is standard debate terminology. Just like you call a discussion an argument. It's funny how many people don't know those words and when you say that you are engaging them in an argument, they get defensive because they think that entails a shouting match.

I also agree with your expression that you have to know your opponents before you can debate them. Well you have to know your opponent's argument. It's not fair to create strawmans out of what you THINK your opponent is arguing about. That gets everyone no where. Hence why my Islam debates are rather weak. I don't have much to go on. I know a few certainties, but they will only keep a poor thinker down. Anyone worth their weight could argue around those points easily.

For instance, we don't believe God has created anything in His image. We don't believe any of the prophets were divine either. We do believe many of them were allowed to perform miracles, but only when God specifically allowed it. And we believe those prophets were usually considered frauds, tricksters, or magicians by their opponents. And many of the restrictions, superstitions, & "extreme" things you hear about Islam have nothing to do with the Qur'an (which are God's exact words, not the Prophet Muhammad's). But we can save that for later

Interesting. The thing is, I disagree with all miracles. I don't think they happen. They defy physics. So whether the person performing them is divine or the divine is working through the person, I still find them to be unbelievable. Why don't they happen in our day and age? With the recording capabilities we have across the planet, we should be able to get video of someone performing a legit miracle, but all we get are hoaxes and frauds.

Good points. I have no rebuttal for your first section. As for miracles, I think the problem today is that even when or if there were miracles, would people acknowledge them?

Just as as an example: Tigers have the Chinese symbol for "King" on their foreheads. H ere are images and here is an article. I'm not saying anyone has to believe they're meant to be kings, but think about the concept. God could leave symbols, phrases, and things like this all around us & we wouldn't even notice. Admittedly, the tiger is a weak example. I'd guess tigers had that on their foreheads long before Chinese characters were invented. But the concept is valid.

And what about the "miracles" we see everyday? Like a women's intuition & its stronger variant, a mother's intuition? Or sympathy pains? Or empathy? My beliefs would say these may be angels or God Himself telling us to pay attention to something. Or even that our souls are connected on an unseen spiritual plane (all of our souls coming from the same source). But where's the scientific explanation for them? Should we just ignore these commonly cited situations?

Even if we do ignore those, what about the things science and our medical fields do acknowledge? Such as "intrusive voices" (we would say it's the Devil or other jinn). Or "multiple personalities" (we would say a jinn or the Devil manipulating a person). Or even "life force" (we would say a soul or spirit). Or the placebo effect (we would say it's proof of the power of faith). Then there's "sleep paralysis" (once again, Devil or jinn) and psychopaths/sociopaths (we would say "evil"). And then there's the one where the female body turns into something out of Transformers during childbirth (no offense meant, but it's both fascinating & horrifying how the bones & flesh shift around). And we would say the constant occurrence of the Golden Ratio is proof of "Intelligent Design".

The point I'm making is there are "miracles" all around us, but people are too busy w/our daily lives to notice or acknowledge them. Or are too busy looking for certain types of miracles to accept the one's around us.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
Good points. I have no rebuttal for your first section. As for miracles, I think the problem today is that even when or if there were miracles, would people acknowledge them?

Just as as an example: Tigers have the Chinese symbol for "King" on their foreheads. H ere are images and here is an article. I'm not saying anyone has to believe they're meant to be kings, but think about the concept. God could leave symbols, phrases, and things like this all around us & we wouldn't even notice. Admittedly, the tiger is a weak example. I'd guess tigers had that on their foreheads long before Chinese characters were invented. But the concept is valid.

You beat me to the rebuttal. I heard that many Chinese characters were written down through copying natural patterns and shapes. It may be the case that the ancient Chinese had a great respect for the tiger and considered it the king of the wild. My ancient Chinese history is also sorely lacking. Which is ashame, that is part of the world with a very rich history that I'd like to learn more about.

And what about the "miracles" we see everyday? Like a women's intuition & its stronger variant, a mother's intuition? Or sympathy pains? Or empathy? My beliefs would say these may be angels or God Himself telling us to pay attention to something. Or even that our souls are connected on an unseen spiritual plane (all of our souls coming from the same source). But where's the scientific explanation for them? Should we just ignore these commonly cited situations?

To me that is ascribing a solution to something we don't fully understand. In other words, the God of the Gaps argument. It's valid until scientific data proves those assumptions wrongs. Which means you have to be fluid with your beliefs. The God of the Gaps argument has been whittled away considerably since ancient times.

Even if we do ignore those, what about the things science and our medical fields do acknowledge? Such as "intrusive voices" (we would say it's the Devil or other jinn). Or "multiple personalities" (we would say a jinn or the Devil manipulating a person). Or even "life force" (we would say a soul or spirit). Or the placebo effect (we would say it's proof of the power of faith). Then there's "sleep paralysis" (once again, Devil or jinn) and psychopaths/sociopaths (we would say "evil"). And then there's the one where the female body turns into something out of Transformers during childbirth (no offense meant, but it's both fascinating & horrifying how the bones & flesh shift around). And we would say the constant occurrence of the Golden Ratio is proof of "Intelligent Design".

Most of those examples are examples of mental illness. The only one that I truly cannot rebut is the placebo effect. The power of willpower to make a useless substance fix something is quite amazing. But to me, that just says we don't fully understand the way our brain works and controls our body. The only way I could see a divine source for such things is if it can be proven definitively that the divine exists. Until then, I cannot consider it a possibility because it relies on too many assumptions.

The point I'm making is there are "miracles" all around us, but people are too busy w/our daily lives to notice or acknowledge them. Or are too busy looking for certain types of miracles to accept the one's around us.

If you think what goes on on this planet is pretty miraculous then you should check out astronomy. For one, we are finding out that many of the things that we thought made our planet unique aren't really so. And for two, there are some FAR crazier events in the cosmos than on earth. Did you know that there is a giant cloud of alcohol floating around in space?

If there is a creator God just because they “know” what man perceives as future events does not mean they are predetermined.This perception of a free will is the most common belief from radical fundamental herd religion to staunch atheist.However these chain of events are the evidence that man does not have a will free of cause.

The will is a mechanism of the mind that desires and chooses. All of those choices are made in accordance to the nature and character of the person and the amalgamation of all of their experiences which form their belief in faith of “their” Belief System religion.

Free will is the cornerstone of faith and is why most people will defend their “right” to a free will with their dying breath.However the fact is the will is not free of cause because there were a mass multitude of causes and effects completely independent of the persons “will”. Their very physical conception was not something they willed.

The belief in the false construct of a free will is impossible hurdle(mountain) to jump over a person must be thrown over it and only then does this life begin to make the slightest sense.The fact is these events are happening “to mankind” not being caused by the individuals.It is a whole system at work the independent causes and effects seem to have very little rhyme or reason because a dearth of chaos and entropy appear to rule.

Mankind deals with that dichotomy of the physical realm life by their nature which is religious.The amalgamation of all of a persons experiences form their Belief System religion.In other words nothing can be perceived but “through” a persons belief in faith of their Belief System(BS).The perception through their BS is they have a free will.Many believe their God gave it to them for whatever reason…and that is the core of much of the chaotic nature of man.However this God they believe in cannot be the creator God.It can only be the God of their BS “religion” and they have created their God in their own image.

In other words their God only believes in what “they” believe in.Many of those people have a foundation “herd religion” like Christianity, Islam, etc etc….however everyone has their “own” perception(belief) of their God which is in reality themselves…and of course is not true.Their “will” is formed through their perception/ belief because they can only “act” by how they believe in faith.This is true of ALL of mankind because it is mans nature of religion.

This “self will” is the God of a persons life.It is all of their desires and makes all of their decisions and cannot be “free” of themselves.In effect the person is in a prison of their own making but cannot perceive the bars and ball and chains.They do not “escape” it because they perceive no need to because they are not aware it exists.The false construct of free will blinds the person to the fact they are not the master of their life and binds them in their prison.

It is impossible for the person to “free” themselves with the very thing that is holding them captive!!This is the ultimate dilemma.The only way they can be freed from their bondage is by either a creator God or death.In effect the belief in free will is a result of a persons BS religion not a doctrinal creed.The fact is ..there is no freedom in free will at all ...it is all bondage.The only perk is the blindness to the condition.If a person who was bound by belief in a free will “knew” the prison they were in it would only cause utter disparity therefore even the thought of it has to be banished.

The belief in the construct of free will is the seed of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.It “judges” unjustly.It is the seed of dualism that does not exist because it perceives black as white and dark as light by it’s own desire.It judges(chooses) good and evil by it’s own standard.That is the chains of it’s prison.

A creator God cannot “judge”.They are not bound by any laws of dualism because it is a false law.The creator God can only “know” because in effect for them there are no “decisions” of judgment to make.Knowing is what the creator God’s will is.Mans will is completely different and is “grown” from the seed of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.That is their nature of religion.

The creator God did not “create” good and evil it is purely a dualistic construct of belief by man.
In effect there is “nothing” to create because it does not exist.Man only “perceives” it however it is as much as a ghost as the tooth fairy.Belief in it is the fatal symptom of belief in a will free of cause and is complete detachment from true reality.That is why it is a prison of the persons own making.It only exist “in” their mind.They create the “rules and regulations”(doctrines and creeds) they “live” by.

It is impossible to “believe” in a good without an evil.That is the core of the real dichotomy of dualism . Belief always “chooses” without choosing one or the other it is ALWAYS both.That is the seed of dualism…i.e..For good to exist there must be evil so it creates evil where there was none.It is a vicious cycle that spins like a vortex swallowing itself.

The fact is a creator God cannot know evil at all because it does not exist.The dualistic construct of good and evil is mans creation in their mind enacted through their will which is NOT free of cause or effect…and the cycle continues.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Ok, sorry in advance if I'm not 100% clear in this reply. I'm salvaging 2 partially failed projects & a conversation w/an ex lol

You beat me to the rebuttal. I heard that many Chinese characters were written down through copying natural patterns and shapes. It may be the case that the ancient Chinese had a great respect for the tiger and considered it the king of the wild. My ancient Chinese history is also sorely lacking. Which is ashame, that is part of the world with a very rich history that I'd like to learn more about.

No worries. I don't know nearly enough about Chinese culture myself.

To me that is ascribing a solution to something we don't fully understand. In other words, the God of the Gaps argument. It's valid until scientific data proves those assumptions wrongs. Which means you have to be fluid with your beliefs. The God of the Gaps argument has been whittled away considerably since ancient times.

The thing here is, all of these instances fit perfectly with our beliefs. And a mother's intuition, sympathy pains, and empathy have all been shown to be real in enough cases to prove they aren't simple hoaxes. I'm not saying someone has to believe our explanation/interpretation of them. Just saying that I don't think they can be proven wrong either.

Especially since we don't believe Angels have the forms that the Bible says. Islamic tradition says Angels are made of light & thus can take on any shape. While the Qur'an doesn't limit their appearances or sizes. Sometimes they're sent as humanoids, but other times they come in such strange forms they have to start by saying "fear not". And they're invisible in day to day activities. I'm just saying that for all we know scientifically, Angels could be a form of bacteria that excretes hormones that change our feelings depending on the situation (causing us to feel "warned"). Or could even be forms of light that affect our moods in a good way (like how sunlight can make people happier, but too much heat can make people angry).

Most of those examples are examples of mental illness. The only one that I truly cannot rebut is the placebo effect. The power of willpower to make a useless substance fix something is quite amazing. But to me, that just says we don't fully understand the way our brain works and controls our body. The only way I could see a divine source for such things is if it can be proven definitively that the divine exists. Until then, I cannot consider it a possibility because it relies on too many assumptions.

Haha, I think I have a good one for this. Ironically, I think that dismissing most of these different issues as "mental illness" is the non-believer's very own "God of the Gaps argument". Doctors & psychiatrists can verify these conditions in millions of people. And these conditions fit perfectly into our teachings about the Devil's power & the nature of the jinn (we believe the Devil's only powers are the powers of suggestion & the power to speak directly to our spirits/souls/beings). But the only thing non-believers can do is take the easy route by labeling them all as mental illnesses & prescribe drugs until the person affected by them is too high to hear the voices any more. Of course, sometimes the drugs don't block things & may actually make the conditions worse, which would coincidentally "confirm" our beliefs on intoxication.

If you think what goes on on this planet is pretty miraculous then you should check out astronomy. For one, we are finding out that many of the things that we thought made our planet unique aren't really so. And for two, there are some FAR crazier events in the cosmos than on earth. Did you know that there is a giant cloud of alcohol floating around in space?

Oh man, I LOVE astronomy! I'm not too good with the details, but I like a lot of the 2hr long videos on youtube showing star size comparisons, strange planets found, etc. There are definitely crazier things found in outer space than on Earth. And the sheer size of even just our galaxy is mind boggling. Thankfully, Islam doesn't teach that the Earth is flat or all of that stuff. In fact, one of the 99 names for God (according to the Qur'an) is translated as "The Lord of the Worlds" (yes, plural). 4 of the 6 translations on that site I linked earlier also translate it as "Lord of the Worlds". So there's no conflict w/that for us

Though I will say up front, there are a lot of different traditions and rulings, depending on the denomination. So there is always the chance that some Islamic denomination will contradict have their interpretation of this. That's why I said earlier to check the Qur'an & then you can refute anything else that contradicts with it.

One more thing w/astronomy. I used to use this as an example of why we can't buy our way into Heaven. I would tell people to imagine you accumulated enough diamonds to blanket our entire city. Then you tried to use that to buy your way into Heaven. But God created all of existence so our city is smaller than a microbe in comparison. If God wanted to, He could make a planet of diamonds! What is a city's worth going to do for Him? ...Then I found out they've discovered a planet they believe to be mostly made of diamond. lol Blew my own mind.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: Krazysh0t


The thing here is, all of these instances fit perfectly with our beliefs. And a mother's intuition, sympathy pains, and empathy have all been shown to be real in enough cases to prove they aren't simple hoaxes. I'm not saying someone has to believe our explanation/interpretation of them. Just saying that I don't think they can be proven wrong either.

Especially since we don't believe Angels have the forms that the Bible says. Islamic tradition says Angels are made of light & thus can take on any shape. While the Qur'an doesn't limit their appearances or sizes. Sometimes they're sent as humanoids, but other times they come in such strange forms they have to start by saying "fear not". And they're invisible in day to day activities. I'm just saying that for all we know scientifically, Angels could be a form of bacteria that excretes hormones that change our feelings depending on the situation (causing us to feel "warned"). Or could even be forms of light that affect our moods in a good way (like how sunlight can make people happier, but too much heat can make people angry).

It's just that we don't have evidence for these things. We have broken down and analyzed light in many different ways and haven't seen it behave in any way consciously. Light has a physical effect in our universe that we can detect, but somehow angels made of light don't have a physical effect on the universe that we can detect?

Haha, I think I have a good one for this. Ironically, I think that dismissing most of these different issues as "mental illness" is the non-believer's very own "God of the Gaps argument". Doctors & psychiatrists can verify these conditions in millions of people. And these conditions fit perfectly into our teachings about the Devil's power & the nature of the jinn (we believe the Devil's only powers are the powers of suggestion & the power to speak directly to our spirits/souls/beings). But the only thing non-believers can do is take the easy route by labeling them all as mental illnesses & prescribe drugs until the person affected by them is too high to hear the voices any more. Of course, sometimes the drugs don't block things & may actually make the conditions worse, which would coincidentally "confirm" our beliefs on intoxication.

Mental illness is the best guess we have given the acquired evidence on the matter so far. I will be the first to admit that the science of psychology is VERY underdeveloped, but as the science ages, our knowledge will become more complete. I imagine that eventually science will decouple from the pharmaceutical industry as it starts to seek more effective treatments.

Also, keep in mind the pharmaceutical industry is running out of chemical compounds to make into viable drugs. Even that industry is being forced to move onto different answers to mental problems.

Oh man, I LOVE astronomy! I'm not too good with the details, but I like a lot of the 2hr long videos on youtube showing star size comparisons, strange planets found, etc. There are definitely crazier things found in outer space than on Earth. And the sheer size of even just our galaxy is mind boggling. Thankfully, Islam doesn't teach that the Earth is flat or all of that stuff. In fact, one of the 99 names for God (according to the Qur'an) is translated as "The Lord of the Worlds" (yes, plural). 4 of the 6 translations on that site I linked earlier also translate it as "Lord of the Worlds". So there's no conflict w/that for us

To be fair, Christianity doesn't teach that the world is flat or that YEC stuff either. That is just a poor interpretation made recently.

Oh if you like comparing the scales of things, check out this website that gives you a sliding scale to get an idea of how big things are in the universe. You can go from microscopic all the way up to universal.

scaleofuniverse.com...

Though I will say up front, there are a lot of different traditions and rulings, depending on the denomination. So there is always the chance that some Islamic denomination will contradict have their interpretation of this. That's why I said earlier to check the Qur'an & then you can refute anything else that contradicts with it.

One more thing w/astronomy. I used to use this as an example of why we can't buy our way into Heaven. I would tell people to imagine you accumulated enough diamonds to blanket our entire city. Then you tried to use that to buy your way into Heaven. But God created all of existence so our city is smaller than a microbe in comparison. If God wanted to, He could make a planet of diamonds! What is a city's worth going to do for Him? ...Then I found out they've discovered a planet they believe to be mostly made of diamond. lol Blew my own mind.

Funnily enough, diamonds are exceedingly common. Even on this planet. The reason they are so expensive is because there is a monopoly on diamond mining that is creating an artificially low supply that jacks the price up considerably. But I see your point. You could easily change the substance from diamond to gold and it would be just as relevant.