Oh yes, I am *soooo* unamerican *cough*

For those looking for some insight into what Thomas is talking about, I've started a new archive for ATS, and added the Federalist Papers as our first piece.

Download Federalist Papers (1.1 Mb text file)

Many have called these papers the most successful public relations campaign ever.

Wow!! Online!! I've really got to start taking advantage of this whole internet thing.

How about the anti-Federalist papers? The other side of the story is also a useful thing.

We take the country and government for granted in so many ways, but there was a whole lot of thought, debate, and just plain ol' knock down/drag outs over how it "oughta be."

Jedi,

LOL. A Christian state would mean the deaths or imprisonment of anyone who isnt Christian. Dont you read history?

Inquisitions, witch burning. 100 years wars. Mary I and Elisabeth I. I need not go on and on about the brutality of Christian states.

Theocracy=anyone who dont worship you god will get beat down. Judeo Christian=anyone who dont believe in the bible or follows these two religions gets beat down.

You are steroetyping. Just because they were a few screwed up people 500 years ago does not mean it would happen again. With a religious state it would help the country be imposing morals, and Judeo-Chirstian ideals which are good.

And do you consider the Crusaders just as bad?

Yeah, I consider the Crsaders bad. Fighting over some smelly chunk of dirt because its holy?

What do u think Imposing morals is? You are imposing morals that only pertain to one religion, on train of thought. What do u do if a person, say, doesnt wanna follow your morality? Your religion? Hmmmmmm?

Of course, in the Crusaders defense, the Muslims did start it by the Moorish invasion of Europe. Luckily, they were stopped. The Crusaders basically were paying them back.

Regardless, the Crusaders did some very nasty things. And killed alot of people who didnt need to be killed.

There are no innocents, in this religious game, if u listen to the insanity of so called holy men.

No thanks, no theocracy. U wanna practice your religion, do it. But Id fight to the death to prevent yours or any religion from imposing its narrow views on the entire public.

No more theocracies. We can see the after effects of it in the middle east, as well as the beginning here in the US.

By morals I mean, no abortion, a cleaner media, not allowing homosexuals to marry, not so much openess about sex.

On the Crusades, I thought they were a good idea, they were for a good cause. But I don't support what happened in the Fourth Crusade.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Jedi,

LOL. A Christian state would mean the deaths or imprisonment of anyone who isnt Christian. Dont you read history?

Inquisitions, witch burning. 100 years wars. Mary I and Elisabeth I. I need not go on and on about the brutality of Christian states.

Theocracy=anyone who dont worship you god will get beat down. Judeo Christian=anyone who dont believe in the bible or follows these two religions gets beat down.

Really? Because we have degenerated to the point to where the only thing that can be persecuted is the Christian, don't assume this nation has always been that way. As a matter of fact, quite the opposite is the case.

As a matter of fact, a driving force to new states was the differences in ideology between the sects.

However, you can rest assured that there were nonbelievers just as there are nonbelievers now.

Individually, taking Christ as your savior is paramount, nationally speaking, its ethics, morals and principles are what is necessary for our success.

By morals I mean, no abortion, a cleaner media, not allowing homosexuals to marry, not so much openess about sex.

Yeah, but sodomizing altar boys, torturing the non-believer and oppessing the masses is ok according to christian standards.

Individually, taking Christ as your savior is paramount, nationally speaking, its ethics, morals and principles are what is necessary for our success.

That may have been true at one time. Too bad Mr. Christ's "teachings" are used as nothing but a satus quo nowadays. The first christian to want to "convert" people is the one least to be trusted...

Its all about FREE SPEECH!!! You all have the right to say whatever the hell you wanna say!!!

Thats the friggin point!! Thats why we live here, and why people are willing to risk death to get here!!! Look at the Cuban boat-people, or the Mexican people who will risk life and limb to get to the USA to find work and stability for themselves and thier families.

You can not, nor do you or anyone else have the right to censure someones comments on any subject, including politics, religion, or even race or creed!! PC only goes so far before it begins to infringe on ones ability to speak out about any topic!!

So, please... enough of this "you're un-American", "you're anti-American", ura... ura... ura...!!!!?
Give it a flippin rest!!!

We are all Americans, period!! It does not matter what you beleive, what you think, who you vote for or what designer label you have on your clothing!!

Stop looking at our country and the world like its some kind of giant pep-rally, this is true reality, not the pablum crap they force feed you on TV since no one wants to pay a real screenwriter anymore.

View this real world with maturity and clarity, since it doesn't ever seem to truly make sense but that again my friend is the point!!

So, let me get this straight.

Someone can witness another being anti or un American and they are not allowed to say anything? Thus saith Harrier?

We are all Americans? Really? So that means that if you are born, or naturalized even, you are incapable of making a statement or commiting an action that can be deemed "unAmerican"?

Free Speech?

Being an American is being a citizen of America, by birth or immigration - by definition.

Now, if you want to get into the religious part of Patriotism (and yes folks, Patriotism is its own religion - I'll write a rant about THAT later), being an American means to protect and obey the President, worship the flag, and agree with everything the government tells you to.

No, Lobo, immigration does not by definition make you a citizen.

If you wish to rant about some possible fringe element that is mostly in your mind judging by your brief description, go right ahead. Its not worth discussing and is about as profitable as me discussing the other end of the same hypothetical spectrum.

Originally posted by LOBO
being an American means to protect and obey the President, worship the flag, and agree with everything the government tells you to.

-blah-


I respectfully submit that New Yorkers are the most "American" Americans.

We quietly go about our little beehive existence; wallowed up in our tiny apartments we call home, dutifully merging with the flow of humanity in the morning commute to our duties. We work hard, really hard, and fast. Then, reverse the mornings process and return to our appointed tiny holes in the walls of the concrete canyons.

But look at us the wrong way, and you'll get [size=10]F-U! with great and sudden levels of horrific anger. Then, as if nothing happened, we return to our daily routine, interruption forgotten.

Being "American" carries with it a prerequisite to question our government. The "right to bear arms" many of us hold so dear is a throw back to those days of doubting any organized government (useless now, what with tanks, apache helicopters, and such... the concept began when everyone had muskets).

Those who gleefully wish for a bland sameness of society (BELCH! like a Christian state), or who blindly follow their leaders, are not "Americans" as the term is originally felt. No. They scare me.

What is a "Christian State", William? Many here argue that what the Founders created was a Christian state, they just don't know that what they describe is what this country was.

Or, are you meaning a state like what you'll find in Iran now, only Christian?

That isn't a possibility as Christianity itself doesn't lend well to such an entity. I have no doubt that man could try and force it to fit, as has been in history with the Catholic Church and other governments, but now that all have the ability to read their books in their own languages, it'd be hard to do that again.

I think christianity has proven what it's capable of. Thousands of years of death isn't enough for people to see what a christian state is really like?

Need I remind anyone that the darkest times in history have been christian ruled times? People hate cigarettes for the deaths they have caused, but christianity is innocent and pure, forget the horrors it's responsible for...

Jezz,

I am far from a hard line, go to church every Sunday type of guy. But... come on already with the thousands of deaths and that rant...

Extremists/fundamentalists have a common thread-intolerance. Sunni against Shiite, Catholic against Lutheran, Baptist against Catholic and it goes on... but the founding fathers knew that a system of government based upon Judeo/christian fundamentals was the way to go. Freedom of religion, not freedom from religion is what they meant... The founding fathers did not want a purely christian - (fill in the blank on the type-prostestant, lutheran, etc...) But a country that allowed freedoms of all types of religious practices.

The very fact we have this board, and the different view points shows the brillance of the founding fathers and the writing of the constitution... No other document has the far reaching impact as it does!

If you do not like what is going on VOTE!!! Lots of men and women have died to protect that right


[Edited on 8-6-2003 by pokerbob]

Unfortunately, the right to vote isn't what it used to be , is it...

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
I think christianity has proven what it's capable of. Thousands of years of death isn't enough for people to see what a christian state is really like?

Need I remind anyone that the darkest times in history have been christian ruled times? People hate cigarettes for the deaths they have caused, but christianity is innocent and pure, forget the horrors it's responsible for...

Did you not read or comprehend what I said? Do you understand the origins of the U.S.?
You, of course, are referring to when the world (Europe) was controlled by a "Church" that controlled the state to a large extent. That religious organization had a big problem with the populace reading the Word for themselves. You are also talking about a religious organization that taught the people that they had to go to another man to receive forgiveness from Christ, not straight to Christ. When Christ died, the veil was torn, and their was no longer a need for a high priest or anyone else to act as a go-between.

You know what is more dangerous? A bunch of stupid humans who get so pompous they think they can rewrite morality, can run this little bit better than God, and try and do things on their own.

We are seeing the results, decade by decade, not only in this nation, but around the world.

Your worst fears are yet to come. You'll get what you want, a world with no Christian influence, and it probably won't be too much longer. But remember, you wanted it.

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
Unfortunately, the right to vote isn't what it used to be , is it...

The RIGHT to VOTE, is still what it used to be. What isn't what it used to be is the frequency of it's use, less than half the US population is voteing. And the half that do not vote are scewing the rest over, while complaining about things they didn't obviously care to change in the beginning.

EXERCISEING your right to vote don't mean flapping your damn lips, it means doing it. So next time someone complains about our government, ask them if they voted. If they didn't smack them for the rest of us!

Jedi,

LOL. A Christian state would mean the deaths or imprisonment of anyone who isnt Christian. Dont you read history?

Inquisitions, witch burning. 100 years wars. Mary I and Elisabeth I. I need not go on and on about the brutality of Christian states.

LOL, that punchline killed them. Good one!!!!


Of course, they conceal the facts. Europe benefited from the Moorish Invasion. No one benefited from the Crusades but the killed.