Oh yes, I am *soooo* unamerican *cough*

Skull, I hope you realize there are other forms of a theocracy that can be bad. (Not saying a Chirstian One is, I still think its a good idea:up. What about a Muslim state? I did'nt hear you point out that one. An all Muslim state would mean torture for the Jews, and Christians as well as differnt Islamic sects who do not agree with the ruling sect. Personaly IMHO an all Islamic state would be very bad.

Here we go again. It's only natural for when a Christian feels threatened to threaten another religion, even thought he knows he's wrong.

Jedi, your in serious need of a history lesson. Read up. Under Christendom Europe Muslims and Jews were persecuted. Under Islamic Europe Muslims, Jews, and Christians lived in peace and unity.

Lest we forget the reason why the Moors, African Muslims, invaded the Iberian Penninsula in the first place: Because the Jews asked them for their help when the Christians starting murdering them.

Originally posted by Illmatic67
It's only natural for when a Christian feels threatened to threaten another religion, even thought he knows he's wrong.

That's not a "True" Christian then is it? It's a poser, and one that needs to rethink the message of who they are sposed to be imitateing or following. Many false christains have give a bad name to the rest.

Well, Illmatic who started the Crusades? The Muslims did by taking the Holy Land from the Jews and Chirstians. The Muslims are too millitant, even without all the terroists they are still millitant. Just look how Muhammed said women should be treated.

The Muslims took Jerusalem, so what? The Christians took all of Europe fighting. But we don't call them militant do we.

When Jerusalem was under Christian control no one could do nothing. You better had not been a Jew walking to pray or else you'd get jumped. Everything under Christian control was hostile, there was never any peace. Now let's see how Jerusalem was under Islamic control. Notice Jerusalem means the City of Peace, but the only time it has seen peace was during the 100 years when Muslims ruled.

Saladin, the Muslim Commander who took control of Jerusalem, opened Jerusalem for both Christians and Jews. He gave both parties rights of safe pilgrammages. Saladin even ordered the death of Muslims who harrassed those pilgrims.

Don't come sideways at me claiming the Crusades was started because the Muslims took Jerusalem. When Jerusalem was beautiful when Muslims ruled, Christians knew this too. No, the Crusades started because the Pope was greedy and wanted more power. What pope was it I forget, Pope Urban?

It was Pope Urban III. And a matter of fact I do admire Saladin, since he was peacful and made a treaty with Richard. Saladin helped out and did good for the rest of the Crusade, but I forget what happened but they countinued. Oh yes know I remember, the Fourth Crusade occured which I belive was a complete disastor. I support the ideas of the Crusades up until #4 then I disagree.

If the Muslims did not close Jerusalem, then the Crusades would'nt have started. But, I do agree that the Mid.East is also the Muslims Holy Land as well.

And Advisor, I guess you are calling me a poser? Your saying I am not a true Chirstian? If you are saying these things please elaborate without anyones' help.

[Edited on 6-8-2003 by JediMaster]

A true Christian simply wouldn't act in such a way. I didn't target you or anyone, but those in general who simply don't act in a christian way. Jesus, didn't blame anyone did he? And I'm sure he wouldn't today, let alone another religion. He would have simply declared it false. It seems to me christians today have lost the ideal Jesus set up for them in the beginning... forgive and love those around you. Argueing makes the situation worse, prove me wrong.

A healthy debate is another thing, but can turn into a petty squabble faster than a roach can sence movement of light.


Jedi, I never said you were not a christian, or a bad one just to set things.

[Edited on 8-6-2003 by ADVISOR]

The Fourth Crusade was a complete disaster, right. It was after Saladin conquered Jerusalem. Just to let you know, the second and the third crusades were losses. Muslims didnt bulge. Even the one led by Richard himself. The Fourth Crusade never even reached Jerusalem, instead they just conquered some other lands, Constantinople.

ADVISOR, I may not be the best Chirstian on this planet, but I am doing my best to uphold the teachings of Jesus Chirst.

Ill, I always saw the Third Crusade as a win since the Chirstians and Muslims were at peace for a while. IMHO the Crusades should've stopped at #3, but they jsut went on too long.

Originally posted by Illmatic67

Jedi,

LOL. A Christian state would mean the deaths or imprisonment of anyone who isnt Christian. Dont you read history?

Inquisitions, witch burning. 100 years wars. Mary I and Elisabeth I. I need not go on and on about the brutality of Christian states.

LOL, that punchline killed them. Good one!!!!

Of course, they conceal the facts. Europe benefited from the Moorish Invasion. No one benefited from the Crusades but the killed.

No need in going way back in the day of no books for the Christian populace to read, huh?
We can visit today's Islamic states to see what real torture and brutality is.

Again, I'll make reference to the nation in which some of us reside and how this nation, expected to be a Judeo-Christian nation by the Founding Fathers, was the light of freedom to the world for a long time.

What made the radiance is being edited out of the nation by those who hate God.

As I said, hang in there. It won't be long before the Great Restrainer is lifted off the face of this world and you'll have your way, a way with no Judeo-Christian influence.

As regards your founding father versus Christianity statement a few pages back, I would like for you to ponder this quote,
"They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the minds of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough too in their opinion." - Thomas Jefferson.
He had no love for the Christian Religeon. Check out this link for more information.

www.freeworldtrading.com...

Thomas Jefferson was a firm believer in God, but the man hated Christianity. I wonder why

Thomas, you keep talking about Islamic countries today, that's all you have.

You'd be talking about Christian states today, but the thing is there were no video camera's back then.

was firmly in the "pro-war" camp. And yes, I knew the "real" reasons behind the war... But, I don't think of those who protested as "un-American". It is our right as Americans to protest when the government is not acting as you think it should. My only beef was with some who went too far, and broke the law, and then cried out they were being persecuted. I also decried sheer abject stupidity (i.e. Dixie Chicks ticking off their fan-base, and then whining about the consequences). The thing is...you aren't unamerican, but you did go against the grain. Any time you disagree with the majority (and in any political system), there will be some suffering, simple as that. Kudos for sticking with your convictions...

Jedi, I dont care what religion a person is, so long as they dont bother other people with it. If you choose to live by a set of morals, then go for it, thats your choice.

Homos marrying? Ill agree with you on that. Too many issues, morality not included, that makes it a bad idea. Abortion? I disagree. Its better than having some idiot irresponsible dip of a mother have a kid whose life will be hell.

Thomas, accepting Christ as savior is a prerequisite only to christianity, not to morality. Morals of different natures exist in many cultures and civilizations. Christian morals are only one set, and in reality, many of our morals, and even things in the constitution are not christian.

Id have to disagree, tho, life under the moors was not any better than it was under the christians.

Religion should be freely practiced, i dont care which spook you want to bend the knee too. But when you start imposing the holy writ of your spook on the lives of others, then its intrusive. Then...its criminal.

A little more reading, actually studying, would give one more knowledge, more quotes and more understanding as to where Thomas Jefferson stood in reference to Christianity and this country.

I don't need to "ponder" one quote. I've read and studied to many writings and speeches from the man and the others that formed the nation. Rather than going to an anti-#### website for quotes to back my positions, I've studied from the point of wanting to learn about the nation's foundation. I fear that is not a motivator for many.

Illuminati, what does video cameras have to do with what is going on today, right now? Seems people want to throw rocks about the day when the "Church" was in cahoots with government to control the populace when all one need do to see brutality is to look at other places today, such as Islamic murder of others (the same thing Christianity is accused of doing), untold numbers of people murdered at the hands of communism, both past and yet today.

You people try and hurl the biggest rocks at Christianity you can, but its nothing compared to what you duck yourselves.
You try and omit and hide the foundation of this nation, but the truth is still there.

And yes, without God, there is no morality. What you call morality sprang from the same thing you try and deny. You know your morals and principles because those are the ethics this nation was built upon. Be glad this nation was founded upon what it was.
Destroy this nation by destroying its foundation, and where are you going to go?

Thomas, morality springs from my own limitations of what I can and cannot accept as right or wrong, not the concept of a big invisible spook in the clouds. I do not base my morals on what some old book written by people thousands of years ago, I base my morality on life and experience and personal honor.

God has nothing to do with that.

Just because I am godless does not mean I am immoral.

I do not kill people for fun, greed, or personal gain. Killing things for no reason other than survival is purely wrong. Why? because I have seen living things die. Thier existance ended, sometimes natural, sometimes caused by man. Watching death makes me sad, because that creature no longer lives. The purpose of life is survival. While we cannot control the whims of nature, we can control our own hands. If a creature is to die, it either shall be by natural causes, or by that creatures own choice to die. I will not play a part unless my own life is threatened.

We could go on and on and on. The point is, there 6 billion people on this planet. Not all of em by into your spin on things.

On this I totally disagree. You can be a moral person without knealing before any "God". Many I have met, think of me as a moral person, and some even as a goody two-shoes boy scout, but I am not a Christian. Likewise, I have committed less "sins" than most Christians I've met. (throwing out the not believing in God sin).

Of course, Christians have no monopoly on using religion for control. Indeed, they've lost their touch at this as of late, and Islamic fundamentalists have far surpassed them in this area.

Some here hate Jesus Christ and that is it. So be they.

Skadi, Gaz, I fear you miss the point.

I didn't say you have to be Christian, I said you are to abide by the Judeo-Christian ethics, morals and principles.

Your morals and ethics do come from God, even though you do not believe in him. God engineered the human race and made certain things inherent. You can override the basic input, but that is through upbringing or culture.
In this nation, we abided by what the Founding Fathers expected for decades and decades. We have fallen from it, now, and it was not by accident, but was most certainly orchestrated. Regardless, the attack has been successful, the education system was used as a weapon, morals and values are being warped and are based on nothing solid, and our nation is indeed slipping.

I am also feeling un american. I mean that. And it hurts. I love america. I love the constitution. I never would burn the flag. Unless we were taken over by communists or Nazis and they decided to keep the U.S flag as their own. and were doing evil things. Like torture, rape murder for fun etc. Then I'd burn it . Wouldn't you? I have a generally bad impression of many of the people in the house of representatives. Ignorant people.

Communist infiltrators. And Nazis. what can we expect. Our intelligence services bring the evil people from other countries into our country because they are so smart. I'd just put bullets into them. Total victory . send the right message. If you smart asses serve evil means, you will be put down when we defeat you. Too bad. No breaks for high IQs.

We are the melting pot. Bing us your tired hungry por, not your intelligent evil ways.

There are good people in congress. I don't know alot about him but I really felt like Paul Wellstone was a good guy. He seemed like a straight talker. Just a good impression I got . I liked him. Now he's dead. And his family. Left wing or not. It seems like George Washington and all his buddies would be considered left wing communists by the neo cons. George Washington grew hemp.

Sometime ago I had a dream. Afhganistan. firefight. In a locker in a stone building a Tin with tape on it. written on the tape- Tesla.

So when I wonder why G.W. Bush puts so little into seeming credible,and it really seems as if its all just a sideline to him, maybe all this is just a sham and Tesla weapons or plans have fallen into the hands of some one who may reveal them to the world. Free energy or some secret truth.


whatever. I'm american like it or not.