Let's Cut To The Chase, Cut The Crap, And Talk About Radical Terrorism On A Real Level

originally posted by: Maslo

You are right that some people are taking advantage of the situation, but lets not pretend that extremist islam is not a serious problem (and lets not pretend that Soviet Russia was not a serious threat too - 40 years of communist dictatorship had a big negative effect on my country and many others, and I am pretty offended that you would trivialize them to a "boogeyman" as if the threat of communism was not real).

A friend of ours had the opportunity to go to Russia and fly a Mig (an american ex military pilot who is rich enough now to do such things) and the Russian person in charge of bringing him to the aircraft, said to him as the plane rolled up- "we created this to destroy you." From what they told him, that threat back then was very real. (which was surprising for me to hear- my hippy parents always told me it was a silly lie told by our government to frighten the people).

The threat is very real in France, and the post by VonDutch illustrated well why. We have cities that are 50% Muslim here. That entails a lot of things- like schools (which have both muslim and non-muslim students) obligated to serve lunches that are only Hallal to everyone.

The young muslims are much more prone to radicalism than their parents or grandparents, as from what they can see, the terrorists have more power than their parents- who refused to integrate, cannot speak the language of this country, and are handicapped by their difference in culture and practice. Who wants to join the losers?

They have identity issues, and the radical Jihadists are exploiting that- giving them a sense of belonging, power and importance, indoctrinating them, training them, and sending them back here to perform terrorist acts.

I wrote exactly this on this site the day before the attack on Charlie Hebdo. These young men were in that case. The auhtorities are saying they knew about them, but could not follow them 24 hrs a day, because in fact, there are thousands of them in the country at any given moment- it would take too much human resources to keep an eye on them all. The numbers are growing daily.

Of course, I have had personal attacks upon my home and family by these young muslims (while they were still not yet solicited by the radical groups) so my view may be highly biased.

But I talked with a coworker who is a muslim woman yesterday. She does not condone these acts, and for her, Islam is about peace and none of this is in line with her beliefs. On the other hand, she is afraid to be outspoken or visible against it. She has small children, she lives in a HLM (what is being referred to as a ghetto) . She is surrounded by young muslims who are either dealing drugs or becoming jihadists. They have fancy cars, they have kalashnikov's, (during wedding celebrations, it is traditional for them to bring out their weapons and shoot them in the air, I have personally witnessed how better armed they are then the police!) , they are scary.

I feel concerned for people like her- when our hospital where I work did a silent protest outside the hospital the other day, as we all turned around to go back inside, there was one woman walking up to the entrance... one woman we suddenly were all looking at (all hundred or so of us). and she was muslim. It struck me as a poignant moment, where we all had to ask ourselves- what about them? What do we do? What can she do?

I don't know. But I know the situation here is very volatile and has very little to do with what many americans experience in their own homeland.

I've just woken up and have just now had my first sip of caffeine, so forgive me if I miss a point that was made or, for that matter, fail to make any sense at all. Morning and I have never been very good friends.

When I went to bed last night I did expect that there would be a few who would either read the title alone, barely scan the OP, or misunderstand, entirely, the points I was seeking to make. I am happy to see that those sort of answers are not as numerous as I expected.

To all who have replied so far, thank you - your experiences, opinions, and feelings are all valued and valid.

But now to correct some misconceptions that have apparently taken root...

To begin with, to one particular member who lives in Slovakia - I did not mean to make light of the Russian oppression that your nation experienced during the height of the Russian empire. Nor did I suggest that the cold war was not real. What I did express was that the cold war was used, by both sides, as a means of intimidation and manipulation. Russians feared the United States would seek to strike first, and initiate a global thermonuclear war. Americans were told that the Russians would do the same. When, in fact, all we were all really doing was trying to feed our families and build better lives.

Now...

In the OP I did not suggest that radicalization is not real. In fact the gigantic "YOU ARE BEING BRAINWASHED" that preceeded my words was a point blank indication that radicalization is not only very real, but activley happening - to all of us. On both sides.

What? Western radicals you say? Yup. They post on ATS every day. They've posted in this thread. They have their Muslim counterparts to be sure, but the radicalization is not a one sided thing at all - it's happening on both sides.

There have been a few posts here that suggest that Muslims are absolutists, one could say animals, who, if left unchecked, will force their will and views upon any country they enter.

I counter that argument with a glaring truth. So does the US. We spread "freedom" when our leaders dont' really have the first clue what the word means in the first place. We spread Capitalism. As I stated in the OP - we bomb for Wal Mart. Our military 'frees" people from their "oppression" and then we set out to win their hearts and minds via materialism.

Depending upon which side of the fence one stands on, it's exactly the same threat - just from the other angle. And I am positive if I could sit down with a group of young Muslims in their own countries, they would completely understand this POV. One side trying to impose it's will and lifestyle upon the other.

One member suggested that I have probably never been beyond the state I live in. I would like to correct that. I was born into a military familiy and have lived all over this nation and visited two others. But, for transparency, I never made it to Europe. Still, while I am told that there are videos of gangs of young Muslims running amok - I can also Google EDL and find riots filled with skinhead racists running amok as well.

A Norweigan poster said he is a law enforcement official and that there is a great deal of crime due to Islamic youths. According to the actual data Norway's level of violent crime is so negligible as to be nearly non-existent. By way of comparison the city I live in has much higher statistics.

For those suggesting I have never met a "true" Muslim - as it happens I do have an entire circle of friends ( from a former job ) who were actually in the Bosnian War - Muslims enduring ethnic cleansing at the hands of the Serbians. Combat veterans one and all. Not a single one of them, though every one a devout Muslim, has ever sought to convert me, judge me, nor shown anything but respect for me and the United States.

I doubt one can get closer to a "radicalized" Muslim than a former Muhajadeen. Right? They are some of the truest people I know.

Addressing the few comments about "Muslim apologists"... I don't apologize for myself unless I screw up. The Hell with the idea that I'd apologize for others. It's just who I am. It's not difficult to find those on ATS that I butt heads with and they will verify this fact quickly.

Now to restate the core of the concept of the OP. Radicalization on both sides. Hate manufactured and manipulated on both sides, the creation of warriors, hell bent upon war, on both sides... Who wins? Who profits?

I reiterate - it's not the ones being indoctrinated and dying. The answers are far higher up the social ladder than that.

a reply to: Hefficide

But you do agree that a theory like the Paris shooting being a false flag(again not saying the shooting didn't happen) would be completely in line with your op?

originally posted by: VonDutch
Today's 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world's population.

That's 1.6 billion Muslims today.

Was it not "Devout Muslim men" that flew planes into U.S. buildings 8 years ago?

This needs to be updated to 13 years ago. Our 9/11 was in 2001.

Good to "see" you here, VonDutch. This excellent post is too good to be buried on Page 6 of this thread. This info needs a thread of it's own. I would recommend that you review the data again for updates before you turn it into an OP.

a reply to: Pragression

I believe that the possibility exists that any event could be a false flag. Does that help? There is not nearly enough information yet for that determination to be addressed or rationally debated.

Now if some new law gets swept in instantly on the heels of the event? I'd be open to discussing that.

As it stands, to the best of my knowledge, a small cell that may or may not have been tied to a terrorist group chose to engage in Jihad and, sadly, many people died.

For now I see it as a spree shooting by some young men who had some very disturbed ideas about God.

a reply to: Hefficide

I believe that the possibility exists that any event could be a false flag. Does that help? There is not nearly enough information yet for that determination to be addressed or rationally debated.

You didn't answer the question. The theory fits your op completely. You say that we are being brainwashed into believing that we are at war with Islam.

The reason I ask is because I got the impression you were discouraging people to entertain the false flag theory in the Paris shooting threads.

Maybe I am mistaken.

a reply to: Pragression

My OP doesn't mention nor allude to the incidents in Paris at all. As I said, something that happened less than 24 hours ago is still far too fresh to have properly researched or reached a viable level of understanding about.

a reply to: Hefficide

Again you didn't answer the question. You're obviously beating around the bush. I am asking if the theory would be in line with your op. It obviously is.

I didn't say your op mentioned or directly alluded to it.

originally posted by: Bluesma

...The threat is very real in France, and the post by VonDutch illustrated well why. We have cities that are 50% Muslim here. That entails a lot of things- like schools (which have both muslim and non-muslim students) obligated to serve lunches that are only Hallal to everyone...

Of course, I have had personal attacks upon my home and family by these young muslims (while they were still not yet solicited by the radical groups) so my view may be highly biased...

I don't know. But I know the situation here is very volatile and has very little to do with what many americans experience in their own homeland.

Good to "see" you here, Bluesma. It's good to "hear" from Europeans who are seeing the "invasion" up close and personal.

Jihadists are increasingly making themselves felt worldwide. But when this c**p threatens the birthplace of Western Civilization -- it really intensifies the concern. Talk about "World Heritage" sites. The art alone....

a reply to: Hefficide

I think tptb are using Hermetic teachings against us...ergo ...they understand fear and courage , love and hate are just the same thing between poles and the more they make us move back and forth emotionally between these poles they reap the "energy" AKA money.

Heff, If you listen closely, you might hear the small hands of a angel called abeer applauding your post. Its wonderful.

a reply to: glend

Thank you for that. I was totally unaware of that poor girl and the tragedy. Such a beautiful child and such a meaningless and pointless waste.

RADICAL: being radical in itself isn’t a bad thing.
It may mean you want to see big changes to society and may think there are things wrong with how things are now.
Being radical can mean positive changes... but can also sometimes be the beginning of behaviour that leans towards extremism and terrorism.


TERRORIST: There is no set definition for terrorism, which can make laws and methods for dealing with it problematic.
It is commonly understood as violence from groups with political, religious or ideological aims. Terrorism tries to bring about political change with violence.
Violent Extremism involves violence against other groups in society
peacemakervoices.wordpress.com...


~from Wikipedia source~

Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts that are intended to create fear (terror); are perpetrated for a religious, political, or ideological goal; and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (e.g., neutral military personnel or civilians). Another common definition is political or religious violence by non-state actors. Some definitions now include acts of unlawful violence and war. The use of similar tactics by criminal organizations for protection rackets or to enforce a code of silence is usually not labeled terrorism, though these same actions may be labeled terrorism when done by a politically motivated group. Usage of the term has also been criticized for its frequent undue equating with Islamism or jihadism, while ignoring non-Islamic organizations or individuals. In the international community, terrorism has no legally binding, criminal law definition....

to 'cut to the chase, cut the crap' (what this thread seeks to do....) is impossible: Because->
In the international community, terrorism has no legally binding, criminal law definition.

in addition, government agencies have been ordered to not let the term Islamic Terrorism have status, it does not exist according to this administration with 6 Devout Muslim Brotherhood members of the Policy making body within the executive branch... how's them apples




related read: www.infowars.com...



~from breitbart~www.breitbart.com...

" The real problem, according to the Obama administration, is lack of leadership in defending Islam:


There are some individuals that are using a peaceful religion and grossly distorting it, and trying to use its tenets to inspire people around the globe to carry out acts of violence. And we have enjoyed significant success in enlisting leaders in the Muslim community, like I said, both in the United States and around the world to condemn that kind of messaging, to condemn those efforts to radicalize individuals, and to be clear about what the tenets of Islam actually are. And we’re going to redouble those efforts in the days and weeks ahead.

This, of course, is not the first time the Obama administration has discovered a duty to illuminate the inherent beauty and wonder of Islam. Over and over again, the Obama administration, in high culturally imperialist dudgeon, has attempted to explain to the world the true meaning of Islam. "

a reply to: St Udio

The United States has a definition of Terrorism. 18 U.S.C. § 2331

Definitions of Terrorism in the U.S. Code

18 U.S.C. § 2331 defines "international terrorism" and "domestic terrorism" for purposes of Chapter 113B of the Code, entitled "Terrorism”:

"International terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

Involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S., or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum.*

"Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.

18 U.S.C. § 2332b defines the term "federal crime of terrorism" as an offense that:

Is calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion, or to retaliate against government conduct; and
Is a violation of one of several listed statutes, including § 930(c) (relating to killing or attempted killing during an attack on a federal facility with a dangerous weapon); and § 1114 (relating to killing or attempted killing of officers and employees of the U.S.).

* FISA defines "international terrorism" in a nearly identical way, replacing "primarily" outside the U.S. with "totally" outside the U.S. 50 U.S.C. § 1801(c).

As for the Alex Jones insanity - the Muslim Brotherhood was never on the list, so it cannot have been removed.

As for the Breitbart hit piece? Bad Obama for pointing out that not all Muslims are terrorists...

There are some individuals that are using a peaceful religion and grossly distorting it, and trying to use its tenets to inspire people around the globe to carry out acts of violence. And we have enjoyed significant success in enlisting leaders in the Muslim community, like I said, both in the United States and around the world to condemn that kind of messaging, to condemn those efforts to radicalize individuals, and to be clear about what the tenets of Islam actually are. And we’re going to redouble those efforts in the days and weeks ahead.

One of the quotes from the White House that Breitbart contends is the Obama administration cheerleading for Islam.

I do thank you for posting, as you've proven my point that radicalization and blind hatred are a two way street.

a reply to: Hefficide

Bombing for peace my ass. We are bombing for Wal Marts and the public acceptance of a surveillance state.

We have been divided by rhetoric, manipulation, and lies - on both sides - and our house is falling.

"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people. People can easily be persuaded to accept the most inferior ideas or useless products"
- H.L. Mencken

Fortunately, for people everywhere - we have the freedom to address stupidity out loud and in public. Occasionally the voice of reason wins out

Sometimes progress seems like a crapshoot - but somehow it still happens

Nice thread Hefficide

a reply to: Jamie1

Any possible validity of your point is going to be wa?shed over by pointing at the source -an anonymous poster on a fringe conspiracy site preaching to the choir.

You post here as well - I have to wonder what you're really saying?

His post is valid - and powerful - it has the ring of truth in it. There's a reason for that

It's not some drivel slopped out from some Sesame Street level handbook of lame-ass propaganda

Sour grapes my dear?

The problem as I see it is that Western government constantly espouse values that in reality they don't stand for or they only pay lip service to.

We are told IS are a huge dangerous threat. Yes, but no more so than Al Qaeda. They are Al Qaeda 2.0. Repackaged and re-branded for a frightened and easily cowed western population.

We are apparently a democracy in the UK. But really it's a democracy for the few. The political parties are all alike with no clear discernible differences.

We apparently have free speech. But it's only free speech when it mirrors the orthodoxies and narratives put forward by the state. We are increasingly seeing this online.

Police now monitoring and criminalising free speech


We support repressive regimes in the Middle East and they apparently aid us in the fight against IS - even though these countries do not share the same values that we purportedly stand for.

Saudi blogger flogged for Islam insult


I don't know if anyone in the UK watched Charlie Brooker's 2014 wipe on New Years Eve, but the segment below was by Adam Curtis, the film maker who made The Power of Nightmares. I advise you all to watch it. It explains how a man Russia has helped keep Putin in power by using techniques from the art world to effectively people confused and not really knowing what is going on it. It suggests that the same thing may be happening in the UK too.

a reply to: Hefficide

I was in high school when 9/11 happened-and in a blink of an eye our troops were in Iraq. More than a decade later the bombs are still dropping, troops are coming back in caskets, and TPTB responsible are kicking back and enjoying their twilight years in comfort.

It doesn't take a genius to realize that George Dubya was one of the worst things to happen to the west in recent history. His war on Trrrism (because his delightful southern drawl doesn't need syllables) has destroyed Americas reputation and has endangered the lives of US citizens and the lives of it's allies.

I applaud the Islamic leaders that have condemned the actions of these black sheep-Vengeance is not justice and those responsible should be judged by their actions, not their religious affiliation.

The head of MI5 has now warned that Al Qaeda are planning massive attacks. As if threats of massive terrorsit attacks are somehow something new and unknown. We've had the same thing for the past 14 years. We've had it constantly drummed into our heads by the media and governments like some kind of twisted mantra.

So in response the government is throwing even more money at the security services. This will never end. It's the military-security industrial complex.

The perpetrators of these crimes in France were apparently known to French security services. In fact everyone seems to know quite a bit about them. So they were aware what these people had been doing (e.g. training in Yemen) and they were somehow able to obtain AK-47s? Now I'm no expert but what were the security services doing? Their usual response is that it's impossible to keep on an eye on everyone and some will slip through the net. We've seen with the NSA and GCHQ though that the ability to monitor people indiscriminately exists and is used.

They decry the internet as a haven for terrorists. The internet is the greatest medium of expression ever invented and boy does it upset the established order. When was the last time you saw a truly positive story about the internet in the media? Almost every day it's terrorists, paedos, hackers, trolls etc etc. I predict that in 15 to 20 years (probably even less) the internet that we know and recognise today won't exist. It will be properly controlled and monitored. But it will be for our safety and security. And people will go along with it and accept it. There will be some grumbles, but at the end of the day nobody will really care.

a reply to: 8675309jenny

It's ironic that the most hated religion in the west is Christianity. I would venture to guess Christians are more hated on ATS. Those same questions on sin with death as the answer at the hand of your fellow man to a congregation of Christians would be flatly rejected.

The media would have you believe Christians are more evil than these Muslims in this very video.

The O.P. may have a point but that doesn't take away from the fact that Islam is diametrically opposed to western civilization and our way of life. They sure do not denounce the atrocities committed in the name of Islam. We see over and over what ISIS is doing in the Middle East in the name of Islam.