Breaking the Strong Delusion: Our Morality vs. God's Morality

a reply to: TzarChasm

None of which would be an issue if people actually just read the Bible...
"Denominations" are not of God. God is not the author of confusion.
This really just goes back to the same thing I mentioned earlier. People that aren't saved, metaphysically cannot understand the Word of God and the deep things of God.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

There is no one denomination that "has it right."
Only independent people and churches that believe the Word of God

Hypothetically, it is definitely possible for me to find a number of different people, from different churches (or maybe they don't even GO to church) that all believe exactly the same way. They/We are few and far between, but they're definitely out there.

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: TzarChasm

None of which would be an issue if people actually just read the Bible...
"Denominations" are not of God. God is not the author of confusion.
This really just goes back to the same thing I mentioned earlier. People that aren't saved, metaphysically cannot understand the Word of God and the deep things of God.

all of existence is because of god - unless its something bad. then its because of someone else who is NOT master of the universe.

thats not transparent at all.

/tzarchasm

"1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

There is no one denomination that "has it right."
Only independent people and churches that believe the Word of God

....right.

a reply to: graphuto

Would you please point out how I was in error of Judges 18?

Judges 18
5 So they said to him, “Please inquire of God, that we may know whether the journey on which we go will be prosperous.” 6 And the priest said to them, “Go in peace. The presence of the Lord be with you on your way.” 7 So the five men departed and went to Laish. They saw the people who were there, how they dwelt safely, in the manner of the Sidonians, quiet and secure. There were no rulers in the land who might put them to shame for anything. They were far from the Sidonians, and they had no ties with anyone.[a]

Perhaps you're right. Maybe I was wrong. I'm sure that the book of Judges will tell us that there are no other genocides/war crimes/atrocities within the pages of Judges.. er wait. That's not true either. Plenty of examples to choose from here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here.

(Thanks Brick Testament for easy reading/illustrations).

Some of those examples, are directly commanded by the top dog himself. Your reasoning that Dan just simply got it wrong, is attempted misdirection at it's finest. Within the Book of Joshua, and Judges, YHWH lead the genocide by example. He even claims several times that He punished Israel because they did NOT complete the genocide as fully as YHWH wanted. If anything, I'd give you that Dan was acting out in fear for what YHWH would do to them if they did NOT genocide the surrounding population.

So yeah. I reserve all rights to judge any work of fiction, especially books that try to peddle itself as non-fiction. Personally, I find the text as thus: a mythological, unethical, distasteful adventure in tribal war porn.

How many did YHWH kill again?

Mene, Mene, Teqel, Upharsin

a reply to: Not Authorized

tribal war porn? thats a new one. i might hold on to it.

a reply to: TzarChasm

I mean, pretty much, yeah. There is only one who is good, and that is God. Mankind loves to twist and misinterpret His Word. How can you blame that on Him?

The only way you can is if you fault Him for giving us free will.


As for the second half of what you said, that isn't what I said at all. What I said is that if you find 10 different saved people, who have actually read the Bible, we should all agree on whatever questions you asked us. If we/they actually have the Biblical knowledge to answer the question.

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: TzarChasm

I mean, pretty much, yeah. There is only one who is good, and that is God. Mankind loves to twist and misinterpret His Word. How can you blame that on Him?

The only way you can is if you fault Him for giving us free will.

i fault him for giving us free will and expecting us to put it aside like it never existed at the drop of a hat. its almost like he expects us, ironically enough, to use our free will to IGNORE our free will. huh.

As for the second half of what you said, that isn't what I said at all. What I said is that if you find 10 different saved people, who have actually read the Bible, we should all agree on whatever questions you asked us. If we/they actually have the Biblical knowledge to answer the question.

anyone who is familiar with the religious forums will know thats generally BS. you do not all agree. You always argue over how to interpret scripture, which books are canon, whether so and so really upheld the teaxhings of Jesus and sometines whether Jesus was actually the son of god or god in the flesh. You dobt all agree. Not even close.

a reply to: Not Authorized

Does Judges 18 say anything about the priest actually inquiring of God? No, he just tells them "Go ahead"
You'd know, if you knew even the basic 10 commandments, that these people were NOT following the Word of God! THEY TOOK IDOLS WITH THEM!


As far as the God sanctioned killing that happens, you're conveniently leaving out the part about how they were ALL wicked nations, some participating in idolatry, child sacrifice, and more.

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: Rustami

The Bible is the living word, and the verses therein work on multiple levels, so you shouldn't use verses alone to express your perspective.

yes many do , unfortunately writing much by me is not an option for a few reasons

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John5

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Revelation19

1 Timothy 1 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. John11

I was explaining Jesus to you so that you could properly understand what it means to be the Bride, and with understanding of the Bride, you could better understand the spiritual inequalities.
The Bride - the church, is a spiritual body made up of humans; and those humans are equals as the spiritual body of the bride, but those who are not in the church/Bride body would obviously not be equal to those inside. That is, those who do not have Jesus' spirit in them, as the head of the church, are not spiritually equal to those who do not.
And by saying "not equal", I am not saying that one has more value or less value - just that they have different spiritual rights. And by rights, I mean law abiding rights, granted by God - such as our right to everlasting life as Bride, or our right to Jesus being within us, or our right to spread the gospel, or our right to communion, etc. Now, your interpretation is that we are all equal, but the verses you are using are saying equal in the body of Jesus, not Bride.As a human, we are equal to all plants and animals in our spiritual bodies, but as the Bride, we become something else spiritually - and for that reason, our laws and rights and morals change. Yes, Jesus is the Word made flesh, and that is literal. And in no way am I speaking symbolically when I say that Jesus is the forms - the body of all of us. Nor am I being symbolic, when I say angels, whose spirit it is to be the god of things like wood, or other physical properties, like fire, or other "physics", and gods of species, etc., truly exist. There are literally angels who are over some churches and other angels over other churchs, and other angels over the wind, and other angels over planets, etc. Our ancesters, who prayed to strange gods, weren't praying to something that didn't exist - those things that they prayed to were likely to be literal fallen angels or literal angels whose spirit it was to govern something which our ancesters idolized.

Daniel 5:23 (KJV)
23 But hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of his house before thee, and thou, and thy lords, thy wives, and thy concubines, have drunk wine in them; and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know: and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified:

The verse doesn't say those gods aren't real - it just says they don't see nor hear nor know praise and worship or Earthy things or have such a soul (body of awareness) that is aware like us.

I made the parts relevant to the topic italicized so others could keep up with what we're talking about.

p.s.

Colossians 1:12-19 (KJV)

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

p.s.s. Why do you think that being in one body, in Jesus, means we all share the same laws? Cannot you not clearly see that different life obeys different laws and different gods rule over their heads? Have you ever in your life seen a cheetah baptise another cheetah? Isn't baptism a law? I don't see how you can argue spiritual equality.

Jeremiah 11:4 (KJV)
4 Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people, and I will be your God:

Don't you think different gods/God(s) give different commandments? Clearly, right?

my thoughts go here but will keep it short "lest no flesh survive", haha just kidden - there's no clearer witness recorded than the scriptures to me at least anyway or is it the sword of the spirit?

And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the Lord, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth Hosea2

For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. Hebrews4

John 18 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight

Luke 7 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. Revelation22

a reply to: TzarChasm

In order to get further into that, we have to define what "saved" means, and identify which "Christians" are actually saved.

Biblical Concepts of Salvation :
1. The Bible is THE Word of God
2. Jesus is ALSO the Word of God
3. Jesus is ALSO God
4. No one can work their way to heaven. It is by the grace of God. One must rely fully on Jesus Christ for salvation. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I know it sounds strange, and rightfully so. We are a peculiar people. Mankind has been twisting God's word and confusing people for centuries. What I'm telling you is this :
Find 10 people that believe all of the 4 points above. Then ask them whatever questions you want about what they believe. Their answers should match up.

Here, I'll even give you 2 ATS members that I know for sure meet the above criteria : Myself, and OptimusSubprime
We don't converse with one another outside of threads, and rarely even inside of them. I mostly just mentally note what he posts and believes. What I'm saying is that this 'game' isn't rigged.

a reply to: graphuto

Just to clarify: if one fails to meet any of those four points you listed, they are going to hell? I guess I'm asking if its possible (or probable) for, say, a kind compassionate loving soft spoken philanthropic atheist/Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/pagan to be sent to hell on account of not caring what Jesus thinks. Not because they were cruel or arrogant. Just because they bowed to no master or a different master.

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: WakeUpBeer

You are still trying to judge God without the understanding and authority required to do so.

I have the understanding and authority to do so on the basis that God is the invention of man. The moral argument is good evidence of that in my opinion. As well as other evidence in various fields of study. I'm not an atheist out of ignorance or hatred of God. Where you require faith I require evidence! If somebody makes claims for the existence of God, but also tells me it's not ok to critically question the validity of their claims, do you think I should believe them? Why don't they want me to take a closer look? Is it because those claims start to fall apart?

Are they falling apart because I'm a mere mortal incapable of understanding God? Or is it because I'm unwilling to fear that which I see no evidence of? As I said in my previous reply to you: I am judging claims about God to determine how rational they are. I am judging his actions the same way I would judge anyone's actions for the same reasons. I believe I have every right to do so, and I would expect any intelligent creator would want me to exercise the mind he gave me to do so. This way I do not fall prey to say, worshiping a false God.

If there is a God who wants to condemn me for that, then so be it. I can't imagine a guy like that is worth hanging around anyway, especially for eternity. Just my opinion though.

Read the book of Job, especially Job 38 through Job 42.

Yes, the story of Job is another prime example of God's immoral behavior and chest beating. One of the more extreme examples, in my opinion. I'm aware of the "moral" of the story and am not impressed in the slightest. Jung has an analysis of Job you may find interesting.

Furthermore, it is fine to question God, to seek out why he has done something - that is the whole point - but it is not okay to try to judge him on it. You should approach the questions you have in that respect, and maybe you will find answers that you can understand.

I've been asking why he does this and that throughout this entire thread and the only answers I've gotten can be summed up as, God's plan/mysterious ways. Honestly, I was hoping for a more challenging response to my last reply. I felt I brought up some pretty valid points and questions.

As I have said though, we are not all equals, and for whatever reason, you do not want to accept that.

I would expect God to create souls equally but if he didn't then he's just stacking the deck against some people, while favoring others. Everyone else be damned (literally). This stacked deck is further compounded by his willingness to manipulate free will against him.

a reply to: arpgme

So the Old Testament never happened...or?

originally posted by: Rustami
All Christians agree that Jesus of Juda was resurrected and any who do not are not as a very clear foundational issue

there is no disagreement on Jesus being the Saviour of all mankind

They may agree on that aspect but some of the things they disagree on are fundamental doctrinal issues. Some examples: Once saved always saved vs you can lose your salvation. The Old Testament laws have been abolished vs they still stand. Works based vs non works based. Point being there still is plenty of disagreement. Also keep in mind the two other Abrahamic religions which don't agree that Jesus is the savior of all mankind. Judaism and Islam.

Why is God's message not clear and precise across the board?

a reply to: graphuto

Wow. Did you really try a red herring? Or even more so, argue semantics? The priest did not inquire God directly? That was my error?

Then they said to him, “Please inquire of God to learn whether our journey will be successful.” 6The priest answered them, “Go in peace. Your journey has the Lord’s approval.”

Umm. He did. He answered them. Did you forget about Deuteronomy 18? If he didn't, why didn't God in the form of the Angel of the Lord appear to stop them, or better yet, those same warriors slay the priest for his speaking presumptuously about the name of the lord as commanded if he didn't actually ask? More so, wouldn't the success of the genocide of prove YHWH was on Dan's side? Afterall, battles were lost in the book of Joshua, until ritual sexual mutilation took place. I guess protecting peaceful people were less important.

Here's my theory about the rest of your post that was an effort to deflect from YHWH'S grotesque sense of justice. I think all of those accusations were written in after the fact. Namely to cover up what we would consider today, raw barbarianism, crimes against humanity, war crimes, torture, rape, and generally uncivilized and devious behavior.

Now, lets focus. As I posted twice now, genocide is approved, sanctioned, and even commanded by the desert tribal war god named YHWH. Further more, incomplete genocide almost inevitably draw's YHWH's wraith. Seriously, The "Angel of the Lord" himself lead the genocide in the book of Joshua.

As far as your idol comment. I agree, they did take idols with them. As I pointed out, they saw idols during one of their recon trips. Namely Idols of silver, which, speaking of the 10 commandments, they flat out stole. Hence, the side trip I mentioned for some phat lewts.

Then the five men who had spied out the land of Laish said to their fellow Danites, “Do you know that one of these houses has an ephod, some household gods and an image overlaid with silver? Now you know what to do.”

Who was not following the 10 commandments again? I see several being violated by the warriors in that above verse. What exactly did they "take" again in the subsequent verses, and when they were caught, what offer did they give the priest?

Oh that's right. YHWH is all about do what I say, not as I do.

As for Child Sacrifice? Yeah, seems YHWH God ordered that too.

Conclusion. The Bible is a bunch of books written by desert nomads, obviously suffering some form of desert madness. In it, they tried to come up with a story of origins on par with the surrounding religions.

Or in otherwords, a made up mythology, no more relevant to today's empirical evidence world than a God in the fictional world of Everquest. At least some of those God's are more sane.

originally posted by: graphuto
Sorry about that mis-attributed quote, OP. My point still stands, however, to the guy that posted what he did regarding Judges 18.

No problem, an honest mistake.
I hope Not Authorized has cleared that up for you.

I do however, take issue with your stance that our morality is greater than God's.

Just because you don't agree with what He says, doesn't mean you somehow have better morals than He does.

Are my moral standards better than God's when I compare them? Yes, absolutely. Even more so if I was to place myself in the shoes of a limitless deity when asking the question. Are your standards better than God's?

If not, why not?

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: TzarChasm

You're being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. There is no way anyone could "prove" such a thing, as you very well know.

No more than you can prove God does or does not exist.

I'm guessing you're saying that people who believe in God and the Bible are practicing "blind loyalty."

Yeah it's called faith in other words. Faith is belief not based on proof.

I mean, the Bible plainly says that those who aren't saved, literally can't understand God and His Word.

There are countless people who were saved that are now ex Christians. I am one of them. I accepted the Lord Jesus Christ into my heart when I was younger and I spent many years of my life in church and devotion etc. For the record, I am not the only ex Christian speaking in this thread.

And don't give me any of that "you must not have been real Christians" hogwash. That's just a sad excuse to not consider maybe they had valid reasons for leaving Christianity behind.

originally posted by: graphuto
It's easy to be saved. If you choose not to believe, then you've condemned yourself. Not something I'd want to take my chances with.

Thank you for bringing this up because I actually feel it's another one of God's moral failings. For now, allow me to use a cartoon to illustrate that logic.

Strong language a few times, just an fyi.

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: TzarChasm

And they were idiots to believe such a thing. They didn't compare what Hitler was doing to the Word of God (The Bible). This always has and always will be commonplace : People thinking that others are doing according to the Word of God without actually comparing the Word to what they're doing.

This leads to a lot of mis-attribution and confusion.

I would attribute it to contradictions in the texts and personal interpretations.

The Catholic Church is another good example of this. This is just one example, but the Bible says not to make graven images, or worship them. Catholics do this routinely. Heck, they went on "The Crusades" and killed tons of people who refused to believe in their heretical doctrine. Yet people still believe that Catholicism is a religion of God and Jesus...

May I ask you how many heathens you have killed recently? Because the Bible also commands to do that just like it has commandments against graven images. I would wager that you have never murdered anyone and would never consider doing so. Yes Jesus came along and those barbaric practices were for the most part condemned (depending on your interpretation) so why make a big deal about idolatry now? The point I'm making is you are also picking and choosing to confirm your beliefs.

It's plainly stated in the Bible that God cannot lie. This isn't an assumption.

That was another one of the lies, apparently.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie
2 Thessalonians 2:11,

Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1 Kings 22:23

And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
Ezekiel 14:9

It seems that God does in fact lie and deceive.

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: TzarChasm

As far as the God sanctioned killing that happens, you're conveniently leaving out the part about how they were ALL wicked nations, some participating in idolatry, child sacrifice, and more.

Hmm. A lot of the same things the Hebrews were doing.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

it is, "Us" just ain't got it all together yet, many are being refined or growing through fire at differing God speed's so to sprechen

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.1Corinthians13

1 Corinthians 13 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Matthew 3 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. Galatians5

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Romans8

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Ephesians2

There is no such thing as an ex Christian. If a person really believed the Word of God, they would never depart from it.

1 John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

We're all included in that "any man" are we not? Even ourselves. If one says that they literally once believed in God and Jesus and the Bible, and now they're saying that they don't, I'd have no choice but to conclude that they were never really saved.

a reply to: graphuto

....Sorry for you!

I truly believed. Oh yes I did. And, not you, or anyone else can invalidate the faith and devotion that I had in the Bible and Jesus and God.

I can tell you honestly that I now believe the Jesus story to be a complete fabrication and Christianity to be an evil conspiracy to enslave and oppress.

a reply to: windword

Who am I, or any other Christian for that matter, going to believe? Some heretical man, or God? Sorry, but I just don't believe that you were ever saved.

God said that "no man may pluck them out of my hand."

a reply to: graphuto

That's just wrong...

I am an Ex Christian, and I still believe in the words of Jesus...

Many people like myself just don't want to be associated with that label because of how so called "Christians" treat people that disagree with their beliefs...

And theres plenty of other reasons as well... that just happens to be mine