Breaking the Strong Delusion: Our Morality vs. God's Morality

originally posted by: Rustami
Who do you mean missed what exactly?

I'm saying that scripture is interpreted differently by people. That's one reason there are so many denominations. What makes one groups interpretation more accurate than the others? You have an interpretation that is correct to you. I asked, if your interpretations are the correct ones how come so many other people have missed it? That is a generalization because I'm sure there are people who share your interpretations. But it illustrates that there is no single agreed upon dogma. How is it a divinely inspired book if it's full of contradictions that allow it to be interpreted in so many ways? (That was a rhetorical question)

For the record, I believe your testimony about the Colt and the Gideon Bible. I just don't agree with you that it is proof positive of Christianity. No offense intended. Certainly this powerful experience saved your life and I'm guessing changed you in other significant and positive ways. I think that is great.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

You are still trying to judge God without the understanding and authority required to do so.

Read the book of Job, espeically Job 38 through Job 42.

Furthermore, it is fine to question God, to seek out why he has done something - that is the whole point - but it is not okay to try to judge him on it. You should approach the questions you have in that respect, and maybe you will find answers that you can understand.

As I have said though, we are not all equals, and for whatever reason, you do not want to accept that.

Ask me again and I will tell you the same thing.

a reply to: Bleeeeep

You are still trying to judge God without the understanding and authority required to do so.

thats a curious assessment from someone willing to serve on bended knee an entity whose nature is defined as being impossible to fully comprehend. it is the "impossible to fully comprehend" that some people here are judging, as well they should. allegiance to such a creature should not be cemented while only partially informed.

Furthermore, it is fine to question God, to seek out why he has done something - that is the whole point - but it is not okay to try to judge him on it. You should approach the questions you have in that respect, and maybe you will find answers that you can understand.

i also find it curious that the one person in the entirety of existence who is allowed to judge EVERYONE is not allowed to be judged by ANYONE. is that not the definition of double standard?

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

The Christian God, is The God that Christ taught.

In Luke 6:35, Christ tells us that The Most High (God) is kind to the unthankful and evil. We are told that we should be merciful like Our Father (The Most High) is merciful (Luke 6:36).

Christ tells us what we should be doing in order to be considered "The Children of The Highest".

Matthew 5:44

- Love your enemies
- Bless those who curse you
- Do good to those who hate you
- Pray for those who despitefully use and persecute you

Luke 5:35

- Love your enemies
- Do good
- Lend hoping for nothing again (lend without expecting a return)

Matthew 5:9

- Be a peacemaker

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer

originally posted by: Rustami
Who do you mean missed what exactly?

I'm saying that scripture is interpreted differently by people. That's one reason there are so many denominations.

All Christians agree that Jesus of Juda was resurrected and any who do not are not as a very clear foundational issue

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1Corinthians3

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.1Thessalonians1

Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.Ephesians 5

What makes one groups interpretation more accurate than the others? You have an interpretation that is correct to you. I asked, if your interpretations are the correct ones how come so many other people have missed it? That is a generalization because I'm sure there are people who share your interpretations. But it illustrates that there is no single agreed upon dogma. How is it a divinely inspired book if it's full of contradictions that allow it to be interpreted in so many ways? (That was a rhetorical question)

there is no disagreement on Jesus being the Saviour of all mankind

Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named Ephesians3

interpretations on various services, yes, again-

For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs..One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Roman14

but there is also "false brethren" -

Galatians 2 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage

For the record, I believe your testimony about the Colt and the Gideon Bible. I just don't agree with you that it is proof positive of Christianity.

I appreciate that and reckon it's a better response than I've gotten by many others specially by those who'd you think should know better but also hope I've made it clear that my testimony has to do with a geniune audible man's voice who was invisible and said He was Jesus yet the N.T. was directly associated as it had just been opened so..

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John5

Revelation 19 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

No offense intended. Certainly this powerful experience saved your life and I'm guessing changed you in other significant and positive ways. I think that is great.

none taken and remember before that night being very vocal in my opinion that it was all just something for the weakminded to make some sense out of life

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Romans5

Sorry about that mis-attributed quote, OP. My point still stands, however, to the guy that posted what he did regarding Judges 18.

I do however, take issue with your stance that our morality is greater than God's.

Just because you don't agree with what He says, doesn't mean you somehow have better morals than He does.

a reply to: graphuto

Just because you don't agree with what He says, doesn't mean you somehow have better morals than He does.

i wonder if they used that argument when hitler was in power...

a reply to: TzarChasm

Last time I checked, Hitler didn't create the universe.

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: TzarChasm

Last time I checked, Hitler didn't create the universe.

prove it.

also, blind loyalty is stupid. for obvious reasons. if you need further details, ask the jews for a history lesson.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Sure thing. Hitler was born on April 20th, 1889. Thus, he did not create the universe.

I don't know what you mean by "blind loyalty", could you explain further?

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: TzarChasm

Sure thing. Hitler was born on April 20th, 1889. Thus, he did not create the universe.

I don't know what you mean by "blind loyalty", could you explain further?

can you prove that he didnt exist before his human birth?

blind loyalty is unquestioning loyalty. obey first, ask questions never.

a reply to: TzarChasm

You're being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. There is no way anyone could "prove" such a thing, as you very well know.

As far as the blind loyalty goes, obviously I understand what the term means, but what are you referencing in relation to it?

I'm guessing you're saying that people who believe in God and the Bible are practicing "blind loyalty."

That makes sense, it would seem like blind loyalty to someone who doesn't believe in God and the Bible.

I mean, the Bible plainly says that those who aren't saved, literally can't understand God and His Word.

a reply to: TzarChasm

There is are differences between judging and questioning, assuming and presuming, blindly following and faithfully following. Just because you do not understand why I worship God, does not mean I don't - so don't assume that I don't question as I faithfully follow him.

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A double standard can only occur when there's equality.

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Let's pretend you were a good soul, and you wanted to build a paradise for every good soul.

Now, lets pretend a wicked soul wants to judge you on it, but they, the wicked soul, doesn't actually understand what you're doing, nor do they care to understand what you're doing - they don't even bother to ask you. Nevertheless, you, being that you're a good soul, wanting good things for every redeemable person, try to tell them what you're doing, but they, along with the rest of their wicked peers, still don't care enough to listen, and so they go ahead with their plans to condemn you.

You've already tried to tell them what you're doing, so what would you do about those who won't listen - about those who only want to stop you, and destroy your good work? Would you allow their wickedness to stop you from building paradise?

You know how people believe there's an evil in the world? An evil that would rather burn than repent?

a reply to: Bleeeeep

There is are differences between judging and questioning, assuming and presuming, blindly following and faithfully following. Just because you do not understand why I worship God, does not mean I don't - so don't assume that I don't question as I faithfully follow him.

i dont assume that you dont question. more accurately, i puzzle over how the answers satisfy you. although the whole "working in mysterious ways" thing kind of undermines the idea of getting answers to your questions. and that contributes to my puzzled regard.

Let's pretend you were a good soul, and you wanted to build a paradise for every good soul.

Now, lets pretend a wicked soul wants to judge you on it, but they, the wicked soul, doesn't actually understand what you're doing, nor do they care to understand what you're doing - they don't even bother to ask you. Nevertheless, you, being that you're a good soul, wanting good things for every redeemable person, try to tell them what you're doing, but they, along with the rest of their wicked peers, still don't care enough to listen, and so they go ahead with their plans to condemn you.

like any good boss dealing with a skeptical employee, i invite them for a coffee and a good long look at my plans. of course, being the honest and straight forward soul i am, i would probably staple a paper copy of the final product to the wall or something for everyone to see. or build a model and put it in the middle of the dining room or whatever. point being i would share my vision for the simple purpose that my subordinates should know exactly what they and i are working towards. put a little fire in their heart.

but thats the common sense thing to do.

You've already tried to tell them what you're doing, so what would you do about those who won't listen - about those who only want to stop you, and destroy your good work? Would you allow their wickedness to stop you from building paradise?

You know how people believe there's an evil in the world? An evil that would rather burn than repent?

if i were god, as you seem to have put me in his shoes for demonstrative purposes...i never would have made that wickedness to begin with. i would never have made evil to begin with. if im that intent on creating the perfect world with the perfect citizens, im not going to make stops along the way so i can cause problems for myself. one thought and BOOM! paradise. thats called getting your crap together and getting it done.

satan didnt exist before god did, lucifer didnt exist before god did, evil didnt exist before god did, sin didnt exist before god dide. im forced to conclude these were also products of his creative genius. what kind of idiot purposefully breaks what he's trying to build? smh

So God is an idiot for wanting souls to have free will? Interesting. Perhaps you'd rather we were all robots.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

It's easy to be saved. If you choose not to believe, then you've condemned yourself. Not something I'd want to take my chances with.

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: TzarChasm

You're being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. There is no way anyone could "prove" such a thing, as you very well know.

and yet you are inclined to disagree with it. im curious as to what distinction prompts you to that reaction. you cant prove it, yet you disbelieve it. why is that?

As far as the blind loyalty goes, obviously I understand what the term means, but what are you referencing in relation to it?

nothing specifically, although a lot of assumptions are made on a regular basis around here in regard to god's character and intentions. for isntance, the assumption that he is incapable of lying. also the assumption that his claiming to be incapable of lying isnt a lie in itself.

I'm guessing you're saying that people who believe in God and the Bible are practicing "blind loyalty."

i do see that a lot.

That makes sense, it would seem like blind loyalty to someone who doesn't believe in God and the Bible.

I mean, the Bible plainly says that those who aren't saved, literally can't understand God and His Word.

lets edit that sentence somewhat, shall we?

"That makes sense, it would seem like blind loyalty to someone who doesn't believe in Hitler and the Reich."

i wonder how many people heard that before they were killed.

Plenty of people heard about what Hitler and the Third Reich were doing. They just didn't believe it.

Plenty of people have preached the Gospel to plenty of others. They just didn't believe it.

originally posted by: graphuto
Plenty of people heard about what Hitler and the Third Reich were doing. They just didn't believe it.

Plenty of people have preached the Gospel to plenty of others. They just didn't believe it.

even more common ground. hitler also claimed to be doing god's work...

THAT they believed.

a reply to: TzarChasm

And they were idiots to believe such a thing. They didn't compare what Hitler was doing to the Word of God (The Bible). This always has and always will be commonplace : People thinking that others are doing according to the Word of God without actually comparing the Word to what they're doing.

This leads to a lot of mis-attribution and confusion.

The Catholic Church is another good example of this. This is just one example, but the Bible says not to make graven images, or worship them. Catholics do this routinely. Heck, they went on "The Crusades" and killed tons of people who refused to believe in their heretical doctrine. Yet people still believe that Catholicism is a religion of God and Jesus...

As far as the "assumption" that God cannot lie goes :

It's plainly stated in the Bible that God cannot lie. This isn't an assumption. Whether or not you believe that just comes back to, "do you believe ANYTHING that God says?"

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: TzarChasm

And they were idiots to believe such a thing. They didn't compare what Hitler was doing to the Word of God (The Bible). This always has and always will be commonplace : People thinking that others are doing according to the Word of God without actually comparing the Word to what they're doing.

This leads to a lot of mis-attribution and confusion.

The Catholic Church is another good example of this. This is just one example, but the Bible says not to make graven images, or worship them. Catholics do this routinely.

the dozens of denominations are testament to how definitive the bible is. the only thing all denominations share in common is that they believe in a god. thats how across-the-board definitive christianity is. thats how "set in stone" your bible is. theres a thousand different churches teaching you a thousand different ways to read and interpret a book that supposedly contains ONE PERFECT ABSOLUTE TRUTH. Not a thousand shades of gray. giggity.

but heres the best part: THEY ARE ALL RIGHT. i challenge you to prove to me which one is the correct one and why. then i'll ask all of those other churches to do the same. wanna place bets on how long it takes to reach a global agreement of exactly what the bible says? it'll be even more fun than tha time the government shut down because they couldnt agree on how to spend their money.

As far as the "assumption" that God cannot lie goes :

It's plainly stated in the Bible that God cannot lie. This isn't an assumption. Whether or not you believe that just comes back to, "do you believe ANYTHING that God says?"