Breaking the Strong Delusion: Our Morality vs. God's Morality

a reply to: Rustami

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

sounds like he might have been in charge of the emperor's new wardrobe...

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

1. You're considering our morality by today's standards, when you should be considering mankind's standards back then.

2. We do not know what God's moral standards are for God. You're trying to compare God to man or man to God, and with that kind of logic, someone can just as easily ask you to compare men to all lifeforms.

And so I think you should do so.

e.g. When preparing our dinner plates, how moral are we to all lifeforms? What about in labs and zoos? What about in the wild? Do you try to force bears to obey by your sense of morality? What about your house pets? You do make them behave don't you?

And so you see my point? You just cannot attribute standards the way you are doing, especially when you do not understand what you're talking about. And I say that you don't know what you're talking about not to be rude, but as a matter of fact, and without negative regard towards you. Simply put, none of us know why God is doing what he is doing, and so we have no way to know if what he is doing is justifiable, until it is revealed what it is, exactly, that he is doing. But if it ever is revealed to us, we still cannot put every soul on the same level and judge them by the same standards because we all are not equal, and never will be in times past, which is what you're trying to judge by.

Oh and I assume you're really wondering how people like me can justify God's actions; and I can't speak for everyone, but for me personally: I don't. I don't judge his righteousness - he is God, not me. This is his reality - I just live in it; and that, in no way, gives me right to judge him. Really, I played no part in making him, and so I have no right to rule or judge him - nor does anyone else, in my opinion.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Rustami

sounds like he might have been in charge of the emperor's new wardrobe...

Israel loved Joseph more than any other of his sons, because he was the son of his old age. And he made him a robe of many colors. Genesis 37

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Revelation 6

a reply to: WakeUpBeerI understand. It's about faith. But faith is the belief in things without proof. What evidence do you have to suggest your interpretation and understanding of the scriptures is the most correct and accurate?

2 Peter 1 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

A direct revelation just as it is written

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first 1Thessalonians4

for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation19

How come for hundreds and hundreds of years people missed it? I ask you this in hopes it allows you to take a step back and see things in perspective.

Who do you mean missed what exactly?

Mark 14 Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice John5

And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.Revelation4

They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. Joel2

As I've said before there are countless interpretations and denominations of the Christian faith. One thing they all have in common is that they all believe the rest of them have it wrong. Christians can't even agree on what it means to be Christian a lot of the time. The Bible can be interpreted in a multitude of ways and each interpretation usually has to ignore other parts of the Bible in some regard, in order to make the interpretation fit.

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living..for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Romans14

And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. Luke22

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Matthew18

a reply to: Bleeeeep

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
1. You're considering our morality by today's standards, when you should be considering mankind's standards back then.

Could you please elaborate on this?

2. We do not know what God's moral standards are for God. You're trying to compare God to man or man to God, and with that kind of logic, someone can just as easily ask you to compare men to all lifeforms.

On the contrary, we can easily get an idea of God's moral integrity by reading the Bible. Why shouldn't I compare God to man in searching for the truth of the matter? Why shouldn't I test claims of his character, or even existence, critically? I don't need to compare the morals of men and other lifeforms to determine if those other lifeforms exist because we know they exist.

none of us know why God is doing what he is doing, and so we have no way to know if what he is doing is justifiable, until it is revealed what it is, exactly, that he is doing. But if it ever is revealed to us, we still cannot put every soul on the same level and judge them by the same standards because we all are not equal, and never will be in times past, which is what you're trying to judge by.

This is a God who is claimed to be all loving, merciful, forgiving, etc. etc. Perfect and flawless. All knowing, and all powerful. The alpha and omega. As I said to another poster, nothing is beyond him. He could do anything, and he could have done anything differently. His actions recorded in the Bible do not live up to the claims made about him from Christians. Why is that?

Why aren't we all equal in the eyes of a perfect God?

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

1. Your opening post argues static laws and morality against the very different laws and practices of today. The laws given to mankind change, and as a result, man's sense of morality changes.

Some things you should consider:
-Some tribes/houses have unique laws that only pertain to them [and unique moral practices because of that.]
-Some laws are based upon covenants, and some covenants come and go [as do their corresponding moral practices.]
-God is guiding us, as such, some laws are refined as to give better understanding to them. And you guessed it: with the refinement of laws, comes the refinement of moral practices.

The point being: we were not always so moral, so you cannot argue today's morality against actions which were made in the past.

2. I don't want you to get the wrong impression: I never said, nor insinuated, that you should not try to understand God -- and as a matter of fact, I implore you to do seek him. However, what I was trying to explain to you is that someone should not judge God's righteousness, because they do not have the right, nor needed information, to do so.

Why shouldn't you judge God? Because you do not have authority nor understanding over him - it is just that simple.

As for just the logic of your argument: the information that you used to judge God is based on laws that don't apply to God. Furthermore, the only laws we know that he has applied to himself, are the covenants, but he has not broken those - not that that is what you were trying to base your judgment on. No, you were trying to liken God to a man and then base your judgment of him upon man's moral laws and practices - and that is just wrong, both logically, and morally, because we. are. not. equals.

And besides all that, we just do not know if his actions are moral, beyond his observance of covenants, unless we know all the details.

Why aren't we all equal in the eyes of a perfect God?

I assume it has something to do with whatever the reason is for different spirits or different desires. Maybe it is based on the quality of our spirit, or the useage thereof? Maybe it's based on what we need to learn? Honestly, though, I don't know why either.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer
His actions recorded in the Bible do not live up to the claims made about him from Christians. Why is that?

that's another incorrect statement, they match precisely

Acts 13 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit..Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. 1Peter3

2 Corinthians 5 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them

Why aren't we all equal in the eyes of a perfect God?

we are

we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead 2Corinthians5

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. John3

John 8 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

1 John 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son..These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1John5

a reply to: Rustami

le sigh...what is wrong with posting in your own words? does the bible know more english than you do? paraphrase scripture if you must...and demonstrate to us your grasp of what it actually says.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Rustami

One night as I sat down the colt in a near death experience to pick up a green Gideon NT and as soon as I opened just the cover, an invisible audible voice sitting on my left said my name then "I am Jesus (just as it sounds), I died for your sins, believe in Me and you will never perish"

1 Timothy 1 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever.

John 10 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

originally posted by: Rustami
originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Rustami

One night as I sat down the colt in a near death experience to pick up a green Gideon NT and as soon as I opened just the cover, an invisible audible voice sitting on my left said my name then "I am Jesus (just as it sounds), I died for your sins, believe in Me and you will never perish"

1 Timothy 1 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever.

John 10 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

so you hear voices. thats nothing new. but generally you take medicine for that...

a reply to: TzarChasm
2 Peter 1 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John5

suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest :it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. Acts9

a reply to: Rustami

If we are all equal, what good is it that we become born again; or what use would there be in seperating the wheat from the chaff? If we are equal, why are we bound by more than one law?

To say we are all in one body is one thing, but to imply we are spiritually equal, is quite another - and that is what WakeUpBeer was suggesting, and what you are nearly reinforcing without choice words.

From the very chapter you quoted from:

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Do you see the clauses? Being a man and being in Christ are conditions. Yet still, being in Christ does not make you the Godhead spiritually.

Matthew 11:11

originally posted by: Bleeeeep

If we are all equal, what good is it that we become born again; or what use would there be in seperating the wheat from the chaff?

we are all equal with regard to the scriptures posted's implied meaning, meaning- Jesus is the sword to all mankind and has everything to do with being born again. Chaff is a perfect example

John 6 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Thessalonians2

If we are equal, why are we bound by more than one law?

Not sure what you're saying here..physic's wise? or?

Romans 8 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

To say we are all in one body is one thing, but to imply we are spiritually equal, is quite another - and that is what WakeUpBeer was suggesting, and what you are nearly reinforcing without choice words.

From the very chapter you quoted from:

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Do you see the clauses? Being a man and being in Christ are conditions.

Matthew 11:11

I'm still not grasping what you think I've implied by those posted scriptures, all speak of being born again or meant only to touch on that basic level at least. What do you see as the reason for every tongue and knee?

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians2

Yet still, being in Christ does not make you the Godhead spiritually.

If I'm understanding you correct here, would these be relative?

for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 1Corinthians 6

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Ephesians5

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus 2

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.4

some other's worth a look see

For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations. Isaiah61

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.1Corinthians15

for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. Galatians4

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. Revelation21

a reply to: Rustami

Jesus bodily is all the things you sense that is form: the rhythm of a sound, the shape of flesh, the taste of meat, the form of everything, etc.

But what differentiates Jesus from other spirits is that he is the spirit of form, and as such, the form of principles, and of powers, and even of Father, etc but the other spirits are the principles of themselves. That is, Jesus is the bodily form of what you see when you look at say, gold, but then there is also a spirit who is the god of gold and controls gold's will/function/purpose/desire - meaning the spirit of its actions but not its form - its appearance.

To be joined with Jesus' spirit is to be the Bride, and as such, your will should then be to become host of Jesus' spirit, and do as Jesus does: which is to be a spirit that leads others' by your form to the awareness of Father - but that is not the spirit of gold, nor of how plants grow, for instance.

So now that you can see the difference, that the spirit to lead others to Father is not the same as the spirit whose will it is to control say, the wind, or minerals, etc, then you should be able to see spirits are not equal - no. And further, none of them are equal or have rights to judge the spiritual Godhead. However, I think that we might be able to judge angels, if and when we become saints of light, and if the OP is so incline to judge spirits - but none of us will ever judge God.

In short: What you should be saying is that there is equality for the Bride as spiritual members in the body of Jesus - not for those outside of the body. And further, what Jesus is saying is that not even the spirit of John the Baptist, born as a man, is equal to even the least of spirits in heaven. And so plainly, there is not spiritual equality, and there would certainly not be equality that would grant anyone the right to judge Father.

The verse you quoted from Roman 8, does not mean that you do not have to obey the laws, it means Jesus saves you from the punishment of the second death. We are not free to disobey the laws given to us - only that if we do, and we are saved, we will live, though we will still be judged, and recieve according to our works.

The laws I was talking about is all the laws God has given us. Some laws pertain only to some people, and other laws, to others, and to other spirits.

e.g. You will be judged on how well you grew human awareness by your fruit and a pineapple plant will be judged based on how well it grew pineapple awareness by its fruit.

And lets stay on topic: Judging God's morality.

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: Rustami

Jesus bodily is all the things you sense that is form: the rhythm of a sound, the shape of flesh, the taste of meat, the form of everything, etc. But what differentiates Jesus from other spirits is that he is the spirit of form, and as such, the form of principles, and of powers, and even of Father, etc but the other spirits are the principles of themselves. That is, Jesus is the bodily form of what you see when you look at say, gold, but then there is also a spirit who is the god of gold and controls gold's will/function/purpose/desire - meaning the spirit of its actions but not its form - its appearance.

I'm still not with you on this except possibly the Father part but anyway Jesus is exactly who the scriptures say He was, is and will be. your thinking here? -

Daniel 10 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Psalm12

Revelation 21 and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

To be joined with Jesus' spirit is to be the Bride, and as such, your will should then be to become host of Jesus' spirit, and do as Jesus does: which is to be a spirit that leads others' by your form to the awareness of Father - but that is not the spirit of gold, nor of how plants grow, for instance.

I give testimony to what I've heard and seen because I think it's important to at least the degree that it is not just some visionary idea sort of word craft mental game playing thing or whatever (not saying you, just a general statement) but a certain reality and factual to the uttermost verbatim even to the sound of the spelling

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us John1

Acts 4 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.

So now that you can see the difference, that the spirit to lead others to Father is not the same as the spirit whose will it is to control say, the wind, or minerals, etc, then you should be able to see spirits are not equal - no. And further, none of them are equal or have rights to judge the spiritual Godhead. However, I think that we might be able to judge angels, if and when we become saints of light, and if the OP is so incline to judge spirits - but none of us will ever judge God.

I think these speak of that

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God..And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God 1John4

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Romans9

1 Corinthians 6 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 1Corinthian6

In short: What you should be saying is that there is equality for the Bride as spiritual members in the body of Jesus - not for those outside of the body.

could you show me where I said what you say I said or are meaning?

And further, what Jesus is saying is that not even the spirit of John the Baptist, born as a man, is equal to even the least of spirits in heaven. And so plainly, there is not spiritual equality, and there would certainly not be equality that would grant anyone the right to judge Father.

ok

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him Ephesians1

Colossians 3 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free

The verse you quoted from Roman 8, does not mean that you do not have to obey the laws, it means Jesus saves you from the punishment of the second death. We are not free to disobey the laws given to us - only that if we do, and we are saved, we will live, though we will still be judged, and recieve according to our works.The laws I was talking about is all the laws God has given us. Some laws pertain only to some people, and other laws, to others, and to other spirits.

I agree Jesus does save from the second death but what laws do you think were "given" to you or us?

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Hebrews7

e.g. You will be judged on how well you grew human awareness by your fruit and a pineapple plant will be judged based on how well it grew pineapple awareness by its fruit.

For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth Romans9

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Romans8

a reply to: Rustami

The Bible is the living word, and the verses therein work on multiple levels, so you shouldn't use verses alone to express your perspective.

I'm still not with you on this except possibly the Father part but anyway Jesus is exactly who the scriptures say He was, is and will be. your thinking here?

I was explaining Jesus to you so that you could properly understand what it means to be the Bride, and with understanding of the Bride, you could better understand the spiritual inequalities.

The Bride - the church, is a spiritual body made up of humans; and those humans are equals as the spiritual body of the bride, but those who are not in the church/Bride body would obviously not be equal to those inside. That is, those who do not have Jesus' spirit in them, as the head of the church, are not spiritually equal to those who do not.

And by saying "not equal", I am not saying that one has more value or less value - just that they have different spiritual rights. And by rights, I mean law abiding rights, granted by God - such as our right to everlasting life as Bride, or our right to Jesus being within us, or our right to spread the gospel, or our right to communion, etc.

Now, your interpretation is that we are all equal, but the verses you are using are saying equal in the body of Jesus, not Bride.

As a human, we are equal to all plants and animals in our spiritual bodies, but as the Bride, we become something else spiritually - and for that reason, our laws and rights and morals change.

Yes, Jesus is the Word made flesh, and that is literal. And in no way am I speaking symbolically when I say that Jesus is the forms - the body of all of us. Nor am I being symbolic, when I say angels, whose spirit it is to be the god of things like wood, or other physical properties, like fire, or other "physics", and gods of species, etc., truly exist. There are literally angels who are over some churches and other angels over other churchs, and other angels over the wind, and other angels over planets, etc. Our ancesters, who prayed to strange gods, weren't praying to something that didn't exist - those things that they prayed to were likely to be literal fallen angels or literal angels whose spirit it was to govern something which our ancesters idolized.

Daniel 5:23 (KJV)
23 But hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of his house before thee, and thou, and thy lords, thy wives, and thy concubines, have drunk wine in them; and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know: and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified:

The verse doesn't say those gods aren't real - it just says they don't see nor hear nor know praise and worship or Earthy things or have such a soul (body of awareness) that is aware like us.

I made the parts relevant to the topic italicized so others could keep up with what we're talking about.

p.s.

Colossians 1:12-19 (KJV)

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

p.s.s. Why do you think that being in one body, in Jesus, means we all share the same laws? Cannot you not clearly see that different life obeys different laws and different gods rule over their heads? Have you ever in your life seen a cheetah baptise another cheetah? Isn't baptism a law? I don't see how you can argue spiritual equality.

Jeremiah 11:4 (KJV)
4 Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people, and I will be your God:

Don't you think different gods/God(s) give different commandments? Clearly, right?

Just wanted to point out that OP is misconstruing Judges 18.

These children of Dan did not have the blessing of God with what they were doing. In the end of the story, you can see that they set up a graven image...

a reply to: graphuto

I never mentioned Judges 18.

You are probably talking about this post from another user.

a reply to: Bleeeeep

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
1. Your opening post argues static laws and morality against the very different laws and practices of today. The laws given to mankind change, and as a result, man's sense of morality changes.

The laws given to mankind? You mean besides ones mentioned in the Bible? Who is he giving these laws to? Can you give me some examples? And why shape our morals over such a long period of time? Doesn't it make more sense that as mankind progressed so did our sense of morals?

Some things you should consider:
-Some tribes/houses have unique laws that only pertain to them [and unique moral practices because of that.]
-Some laws are based upon covenants, and some covenants come and go [as do their corresponding moral practices.]
-God is guiding us, as such, some laws are refined as to give better understanding to them. And you guessed it: with the refinement of laws, comes the refinement of moral practices.

What would be so difficult about God making laws against owning other men as property, for example? Why does (or did - depending on your interpretations) God discriminate against homosexuals? Many Christians have no issues with homosexuality. Do you think maybe God is using them to give us new laws regarding how they are treated, in order to end the bigotry many people have?

The point being: we were not always so moral, so you cannot argue today's morality against actions which were made in the past.

Yes, we were not always so moral. But I am looking at God's actions and laws, and only the actions of man that God appears to support in one way or another. He is supposed to be a father figure right? What kind of example is the father setting for the son (mankind)? You want to make the argument that it was the past and so no wonder there are some barbaric practices. Our morals have improved since then. Your explanation is that God is the guiding factor in this. But why does God need to work within the time frames of human advancement if he is God? My position is that, as far as the source for our moral advancements goes, God is not a necessary part of the equation.

Now keep in mind some of Gods laws and actions in the Old Testament seem inconsistent with a God whose steady hand is guiding anyone's moral compass for the better. If anything they reaffirm the actions and mindsets of the time. It's as if God is a reflection of man, and not the other way around.

2. I don't want you to get the wrong impression: I never said, nor insinuated, that you should not try to understand God -- and as a matter of fact, I implore you to do seek him. However, what I was trying to explain to you is that someone should not judge God's righteousness, because they do not have the right, nor needed information, to do so.

Why shouldn't you judge God? Because you do not have authority nor understanding over him - it is just that simple.

I am judging claims about God to determine how rational they are. I am judging his actions the same way I would judge anyone's actions for the same reasons. I believe I have every right to do so, and I would expect any intelligent creator would want me to exercise the mind he gave me to do so. This way I do not fall prey to say, worshiping a false God. This hogwash about having no right to assess just who God is reminds me of the Wizard of Oz. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!

As for just the logic of your argument: the information that you used to judge God is based on laws that don't apply to God. Furthermore, the only laws we know that he has applied to himself, are the covenants, but he has not broken those - not that that is what you were trying to base your judgment on. No, you were trying to liken God to a man and then base your judgment of him upon man's moral laws and practices - and that is just wrong, both logically, and morally, because we. are. not. equals.

In showing that we have higher moral standards than God I've hoped to raise the question in your mind as to why that is. Would you not expect God to be superior, period? The guiding hand might sound like a good theory but it's inconsistent. God had no problem making laws against murder and adultery but can't be bothered with making any significant advancements in slavery until a few hundred years ago? He had nothing to say on racism or bigotry? Instead he fit right in with the people who worshiped him. I feel I have been logical in my approach and I see nothing immoral about it either.

And besides all that, we just do not know if his actions are moral, beyond his observance of covenants, unless we know all the details.

We don't need to know the details or wonder if the ends justify the means. All we need to do is ask ourselves if his actions are moral by our standards. If they're not, why not? It's easy to point and make the claim he's God and because of that he can do whatever he wants. Or shrug it off as his mysterious ways. It's all part of his master plan and who are we to comprehend that, right? Don't answers like that lead us to a dead end in our rational thinking?