Breaking the Strong Delusion: Our Morality vs. God's Morality

happen to notice these?

When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.Isaiah1

He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not. Isaiah66

How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain. Jeremiah 8

Zechariah 4 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.Hebrews10

the second man?

1 Corinthians 15 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

John 8 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Romans 5 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

a reply to: TzarChasm

In My opinion, being a "common passerby" and all, is that We are "Gods" in that it is 'Our world' in which We create, ergo, We are ALL 'Creators' working our way back to TheOneInfiniteCreator, Hunab Ku. The Tao Te Ching addresses it like 'The Tao that can be told is NOT the Eternal Tao' by the 'time' One melds back into ALL there is, everyBody that One 'knew' and everyBody that knew that One is 'FREE' to move on.. I'm also under the impression that each 'Self' will 'awaken' to their true essence, if not in this Life, maybe the next, or even the One after that. Some even 'awaken' while they're 'in Body' and are aware of their past lives and ALL that encompasses. Some are here to 'guide' others. Each Self on separate paths together, each ending at the same spot. Some get lost by "rule books" and listening to what others think/believe "The One who knows does not talk. The One who talks does not know.."

Religion™ is for folks afraid of Hell, 'Spirituality' is for folks that have already been...

namaste

a reply to: sacgamer25

You raise a good question. Are Gods actions justified? When asking this question we need to keep in mind that God knows no bounds. He is omniscient and omnipotent. He knows and sees everything and is all powerful. Nothing is beyond him. Above all that Christians hold dear is that he is perfect and loving. We should consider these attributes when we analyze the choices he has made.

Please consider the OP with that in mind.

As for your claims that God did not condone this or that, perhaps you should read the OP again. Multiple specific examples are given and even if some can be interpreted differently others are blatantly clear.

a reply to: Akragon

The effects of his deletion are showing. Hehehe.

This is going to be good.

a reply to: Rustami

Yes but I am not sure if I understand the point you are trying to make.
Perhaps you can explain a little bit. I do not want to make assumptions.

Ea reply to: pheonix358
Lol come on man, that seems intellectually dishonest to me, I simply pointed out some misunderstandings may exist because of crap translations. Also I gave lots of info to back up What I was saying I just didn't feel like referencing the bible or any other resources because the info is freely available, I think the little research the op did is obvious by how he uses bible versions that conform to what he's trying to make God out to be, and im in lots of pain and was on muscle relaxants for my back lol.

Obviously I wouldn't be fine doing such a horrendous thing, but perhaps you should apply some understanding. The people that were slaughtered were committing evils like sacrificing there children in brutal ways and God gave them 400 friggen years to repent. If you pay attention to the bible, God sends prophets to places all over in order to get them to repent and be safe from the justice that is coming (check Jonah).
Seriously hand me a rifle and some flight tickets right now and I would go stand in direct line of fire to protect people who need help, I would give my own life to try and prevent such a travesty that be unjust.

Would you also say that Nazi Germany deserved to be free of such atrocities, despite those acts being necessary to usher in a more just and free world?


To the op: God is more upset with death and murder then anyone. The same blood from the first death ever still cries to him! Ever thought that maybe when God destroys the physical body of the innocent among others in his wrath, they wake in a marvelous paradise while evil men face justice? What a horrible thing....lol

It would seem hypocritical to me to justify the atrocious aspects of world War 2 in order to keep the world safe, then say God had no right to approve similar attricities in the bible. It actually makes me laugh how you think if there was a God, in your mind, you'd be smarter and have a greater intelligence in right vs wrong.

Sacgamer, pay attention. The bible does not promote marriage for rape victims, it demands death to the offender and even the people of Israel responsible for judgement if they fail to punish the rapist. I think you're deluded, the bible no where infers that sex before marriage was considered rape. In fact king David had plenty of concubines and sex before marriage and scripture says he never slipped up except in the adultery and murder of Uriah (For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life--except in the case of Uriah the Hittite 1 kings 15 5). The things you've said like about how God demands a rape victim marry her rapist, and saying all sex before marriage is rape is NOT in the Word of God and you should be ashamed of yourself for misrepresenting his truth and giving people like the op the superstition they need in order to promote hate of God. I really doubt this scripture is just for the Jews: "As it is written, “God’s name is being blasphemed among the gentiles because of you.”"

Lol at how the op who says he was a Christian, read the bible and researched applicable subjects relating to scripture and goes on to say the Christian God promotes human sacrifice and murder and blah blah blah. I really believe you have to harbor some hate, dishonesty and malicious intent to extrapolate such a conclusion. It's so far out there...

Also much of your information/conclusions are taken from God bashing websites, a quick Google search shows you might as well have just sent us links to other websites. Thank you for at least forcthe small effort to make it seem likes it's not 100% copied from such websites.

Your post is dishonest because it only includes corrupt translations that fit your paradigm, and pieces of writing with out explanation as to what's going on. Obviously if you went to church such things are explained, and even in the bible they are explained but you make 0 attempt to display what the bible says about God in his fulness, but rather only show him in the worst light possible (failing to provide a complete character analysis)

If this was a school project I'm sure it would be returned to you so you have a chance to complete it.


Lol at the guy who says I don't know what an atheist is. Why are you lying? The scholars pretty much 100% agree on what all the manuscripts say, even among those who aren't believers. To you and the guy talking about the Spanish translation and how God should have seen his word would be corrupt... His word isn't In English or Spanish. Those are translations and we have 1000s of copies of the original manuscripts in there original languages. Exponentially more so then of any other acnient written works. Even the septuagint in greek(200bc) lines up accurately with the hebrew masoretic texts which are compiled hundreds of years later by a different religious sect.

carm.org...


God is great, one day we'll all find out.
I want to say, because I think this may play a factor in your issues, I hate this whole Christian promotion of Hell.

Scripture says even non believers will be justified or condemned based on there conscience and not there belief in some sky daddy and son.


"They show that what the Law requires is written in their hearts, a fact to which their own consciences testify, and their thoughts will either accuse or excuse them on that day when God, through Jesus the Messiah, will judge people’s secrets according to my gospel." Romans 2:15-16. (Read all of Romans 2 for context if needed).

There are far greater riches to found in Christ's judgement then Gods judgement of myself so that's where I put my trust, though I hope all our consciences be clear on that day.

I hope I'm done on this thread, have a good weekend y'all

a reply to: puffinkron247

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh. I see. You think this thread is based on Intellectual dishonesty.

Let's evaluate your claim below.

Obviously I wouldn't be fine doing such a horrendous thing, but perhaps you should apply some understanding. The people that were slaughtered were committing evils like sacrificing there children in brutal ways and God gave them 400 friggen years to repent. If you pay attention to the bible, God sends prophets to places all over in order to get them to repent and be safe from the justice that is coming (check Jonah).

Have you ever read about Laish? It is a loving story, of how YHWH God came with prophets first before the destruction. Their mission, was in order to simply get them to repent from all of those sins God hates. They sacrificed people, children, for 400 years, but alas, they didn't listen, and judgment finally came.

Er wait.. that's not how it went.

Judges 18:1-2
In those days there was no king in Israel. And in those days the tribe of the Danites was seeking an inheritance for itself to dwell in; for until that day their inheritance among the tribes of Israel had not fallen to them. 2 So the children of Dan sent five men of their family from their territory, men of valor from Zorah and Eshtaol, to spy out the land and search it. They said to them, “Go, search the land.” So they went to the mountains of Ephraim, to the house of Micah, and lodged there.

Summary: The Tribe of Dan, did not yet have their inheritance. You know, that one given by God to the tribes of Israel. The very same God that told them to invade and occupy a different bunch of nation city/states in Judges 1:2. Hence, the whole claim of having an inheritance that started this series of events. So, the Tribe of Dan send out spies to scope out the land they wanted. So far so good. It starts out just like Joshua sending the spies into Jericho. So we can infer that God still approves.

Judges 18-7
So the five men departed and went to Laish. They saw the people who were there, how they dwelt safely, in the manner of the Sidonians, quiet and secure. There were no rulers in the land who might put them to shame for anything. They were far from the Sidonians, and they had no ties with anyone.

Summary. The spies went to Laish. The people in Laish, dwelt in safety, just like the Sidonians. These people were quiet, and secure. In fact, it's pointed out, they had no rulers to put them to shame. Basically, people like you and me that even the writer of Judges could find no fault in, other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Behold, YHWH comeith with his murderous horde. Get out of the way.

Judges 18:8-9
Then the spies came back to their brethren at Zorah and Eshtaol, and their brethren said to them, “What is your report?” 9 So they said, “Arise, let us go up against them. For we have seen the land, and indeed it is very good. Would you do nothing? Do not hesitate to go, and enter to possess the land. 10 When you go, you will come to a secure people and a large land. For God has given it into your hands, a place where there is no lack of anything that is on the earth.”

Summary. BLOODTHIRST! Can you feel the excitement? War is coming to peaceful Laish! Again, this is JUST like Joshua investigating the land first before the invasion. The report is the same. The land is good. And since God ordered them to take over the whole of Israel, and God is with them, they are going with it. Not only that, these peaceful people are again are mentioned as secure. Today we would call this a war of aggression, for land theft.

Judges 18:11,27
11 And six hundred men of the family of the Danites went from there, from Zorah and Eshtaol, armed with weapons of war
27 So they took the things Micah had made, and the priest who had belonged to him, and went to Laish, to a people quiet and secure; and they struck them with the edge of the sword and burned the city with fire

Summary: 600 Warriors (after a side trip to grab an Idol of silver the spies caught a glimpse of, as can't forget the phat lewts), went to Laish, and slaughtered all the people, whom again in this verse, are mentioned as quiet and secure. For bonus points, they burnt the city down with fire.

28 There was no deliverer, because it was far from Sidon, and they had no ties with anyone. It was in the valley that belongs to Beth Rehob. So they rebuilt the city and dwelt there. 29 And they called the name of the city Dan, after the name of Dan their father, who was born to Israel. However, the name of the city formerly was Laish.

Summary: Mission Accomplished! Laish was the perfect target. No help, no connections. By the end of the chapter, the local genocide and land theft was complete. They even changed the local name of the town, which, was as pointed out prior to the invasion, was formerly peaceful and secure until this time. Poor Laish. Their sins were just too great for YHWH God to tolerate any longer.

Either the YHWH in Judges 1:2 condoned killing these people in cold blood, or he had no clue about the town in Laish, and them dwelling in isolationist peace. Hmmmm. What conclusions could one draw from THAT observation about YHWH?

Personally, I find this illustrated version here, perfect to drive the nail in this lesson home.

Yep. Intellectual dishonesty indeed.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: Rustami

Yes but I am not sure if I understand the point you are trying to make.
Perhaps you can explain a little bit. I do not want to make assumptions.

If I had to choose just one passage that expresses it best-

has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;who being the effulgence of his glory, and the VERY image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
having become by so much better than the angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they. Hebrews1

what's astonishing is Jesus literally did audibly speak to me at an instant that also literally saved my life- a very normal everyday, poorish, "working class", failed english since kindergarten (practically), "hellraiser" (well above the norm- which is probably the reason, ha?), not raised "churched" type guy

Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”John6

Revelation 15 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You ALONE are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested.

1 Timothy 4 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

a reply to: Rustami

Sounds like you had a very powerful, and life changing experience. What does that have to do with the questions about morality I've raised in this thread? I'm sorry if I'm just missing it. I think I have some inclinations as to what you are getting at but remain uncertain. It's not always easy to understand what people are trying to say when they only quote scripture trying to convey it.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

There's really no other way for me to relay it, that experience was relative to the Lord who is now Spirit (2Corinthians3) speaking at the opening of a Gideon NT..I'll ask this though, did Jesus Christ (the exact representation-Hebrews1) have anything to do with taking life or saving life?

Revelation 21 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

John 6 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. Luke10

originally posted by: puffinkron247
Lol at how the op who says he was a Christian, read the bible and researched applicable subjects relating to scripture and goes on to say the Christian God promotes human sacrifice and murder and blah blah blah. I really believe you have to harbor some hate, dishonesty and malicious intent to extrapolate such a conclusion. It's so far out there...

I have to believe you are willing to ignore or gloss over things that make you uncomfortable then defensively lash out at the messenger unproductively.

Also much of your information/conclusions are taken from God bashing websites, a quick Google search shows you might as well have just sent us links to other websites. Thank you for at least forcthe small effort to make it seem likes it's not 100% copied from such websites.

It's not copied from other websites. You may think that because there are numerous websites that categorize and cite the same and similar passages. Everything not in quotes in my posts, are my own words.

Your post is dishonest because it only includes corrupt translations that fit your paradigm, and pieces of writing with out explanation as to what's going on. Obviously if you went to church such things are explained, and even in the bible they are explained but you make 0 attempt to display what the bible says about God in his fulness, but rather only show him in the worst light possible (failing to provide a complete character analysis)

I am not using anything that isn't widely agreed upon and accepted by most of Christianity. Like I said in the OP there are many other versions and I encouraged people to use one they preferred and to look up the verses for context if the needed it. Go ahead and find something more to your liking and point out my errors where you can because I assure you the last thing I want to be is intentionally dishonest.

Forgive me for once again having faith in people to do more research on their own. A five post OP is already asking enough of people when they come to a new thread. Everyone is already familiar with the positive aspects of God. I never once claimed that there were no positives. This thread is about comparing morality. Do you think it's a matter of the positives outweighing the negatives? You know Hitler had some positive characteristics too. Does that mean we should start making justifications for his crimes? Of course not! I'm sure you'd agree. So why does God get a free pass? Because he's God? Because he doesn't act like the Old Testament God anymore we should act like he never did?

I used a lot of questions. That way people would be asking themselves the same questions I have asked myself. And they will come to their own conclusions, and share them in the thread if they wish. Nothing dishonest about that.

Are we more moral than the Christian God? I am. Are you?

God is great, one day we'll all find out.
I want to say, because I think this may play a factor in your issues, I hate this whole Christian promotion of Hell.

Scripture says even non believers will be justified or condemned based on there conscience and not there belief in some sky daddy and son.

"They show that what the Law requires is written in their hearts, a fact to which their own consciences testify, and their thoughts will either accuse or excuse them on that day when God, through Jesus the Messiah, will judge people’s secrets according to my gospel." Romans 2:15-16. (Read all of Romans 2 for context if needed).

There are far greater riches to found in Christ's judgement then Gods judgement of myself so that's where I put my trust, though I hope all our consciences be clear on that day.

Just another dogma, no offense.

a reply to: Rustami

In that particular verse it says he washed away sins.

Thanks everyone for the input so far. Both kind words and criticisms! Hopefully more people come and share their thoughts on these tough questions.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

again as Hebrews1 clearly points out Jesus is the exact representation of The Father who has spoken in "these last days", He represents the invisible God for all no matter which racially inspired warring religious culture of times past. He did'nt rape, murder, lie etc. obviously

For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens Hebrews7

the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 1Peter1

for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation19

a reply to: Rustami

You can't choose to accept some parts of the Bible and ignore others. That's how dogmas are formed. I do agree that Jesus Christ wasn't anything like Yahweh. Who is his father/himself depending how you interpret things. That in no way changes the facts about how God has acted in the past.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: Rustami

You can't choose to accept some parts of the Bible and ignore others.

again Hebrews 1 answers this assumption as well as my first post, in just that one chapter alone you'll notice the Son of God and angels comparison which is a very significant thing to know

Hebrews2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him

Hebrews8 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. John11

That's how dogmas are formed.

Like an old and new covenant?

Galatians4 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

I do agree that Jesus Christ wasn't anything like Yahweh. Who is his father/himself depending how you interpret things. That in no way changes the facts about how God has acted in the past.

He said, "I am Jesus" just as the spelling sounds

Acts 4 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

All modern letters are conversions of ancient hieroglyphs..
How a word sounds in hieroglyphics is more important than how it is spelled. traveltoeat.com...

The Massoretics who followed up the Babel Babylonian Aramaic perverters also dropped the "J" sounding.. By removing the pronounciation of the ancient "J" sound from the letter "I" this was accomplished. But, we see the majestic hand of God when the J sound was restored via a new and different method in the King James Version with the name of Jesus correctly pronounced.

So that the name of Jesus or Yehshas is not derived from any name of God, but visa versa, they were all derived from and point to Jesus Christ from which they all have their type.www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: Rustami

With all due respect that interpretation is just one of countless interpretations of scripture. I don't really know how else to reply to that in this thread. It still doesn't change anything presented in my OP. I'm not going to ignore unfavorable parts of the Bible for the favorable parts. Something I've said in multiple posts already. Also, the Bible is full of contradictions so it shouldn't be a surprise that there are a multitude of personal interpretations/dogmas.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
2 Timothy 3:16

a reply to: Rustami

i dont see how that excuses the brutality that yhwh displays in both the new and old testament. and as pointed out above by wakeupbeer, these scriptures detailing the various horrific acts committed by the hebrew god are still today being used as examples of how a perfect and righteous entity behaves. ergo, how we should attempt to behave. obviously theres a fair bit of cognitive dissonance concerning what parts of the "law" should be followed to the letter, but the fact remains that these are regarded as sacred records of who god is. the dude scares me honestly, like putin would if i found out we were starting a religion around him.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: Rustami

It is about understanding or discerning

And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. Revelation5

As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1Corinthian15

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Rustami

everything hinges with the "natural man" and the "spiritual man", example given here is a response from Jesus with regard to that

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. John8

1 Corinthians 2
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

here's a response to another poster who also has trouble distinguishing one from the other

I hear what you are saying, but mainstream, orthodox, and evangelical Christianity disagree with you. You can argue that they are not true Christians, but they can quote Jesus and Paul describing that contrary to the OT not being part of Christianity, it is the foundation and the NT just the fulfillment

well of course, you can't have the spiritual without the natural first and certainly won't yeah won't find a better illustration for all eternity to all literally

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive..So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 1Corinthians15

Jesus himself says that not a word from the OT can be disregarded.

not quite but close, "until all" is a clue

Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians4

Romans 10
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 7
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Virtually all orthodox Christian theologians see the OT to the NT as a continuum

And you interpret that as keep murdering or something?

1 John 3 and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

John 8 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

, including Jesus being the prophesied messiah and all that.

for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation19

2 Corinthians 3
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

So, yes, the Jews would say that there is nothing Christian in the OT. Most Christians, however, do not. This is why we have the OT in the Christian BIble bro.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.Romans11

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? John5

a reply to: Rustami

I understand. It's about faith. But faith is the belief in things without proof. What evidence do you have to suggest your interpretation and understanding of the scriptures is the most correct and accurate? How come for hundreds and hundreds of years people missed it? I ask you this in hopes it allows you to take a step back and see things in perspective. As I've said before there are countless interpretations and denominations of the Christian faith. One thing they all have in common is that they all believe the rest of them have it wrong. Christians can't even agree on what it means to be Christian a lot of the time. The Bible can be interpreted in a multitude of ways and each interpretation usually has to ignore other parts of the Bible in some regard, in order to make the interpretation fit. This is exactly what you are doing, because what I've presented here doesn't match up with your current belief system.