Interstellar travel impossible, therefore...

reply to post by dragonridr


There's an old saying; "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

I guess this discussion is over as you refuse to even LOOK at the data... (and you pretend to call yourself a scientist)

tanka418
reply to post by dragonridr

 

There's an old saying; "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

I guess this discussion is over as you refuse to even LOOK at the data... (and you pretend to call yourself a scientist)

edit on 19-3-2014 by tanka418 because: (no reason given)

No, he (and I) am asking "what data" is "the data"? That's a willingness to look at the data and results if available. In particular experimental evidence for gravitons.

As far as I am aware, there is no direct experimental evidence for quantized gravitational bosons which mediate gravity. If this is incorrect please provide information about the scientific manuscript.

There is not even direct experimental evidence for classical gravitational waves.

There is significant indirect evidence for gravitational waves and very strong evidence for overall classical general relativity which predicts classical gravitational waves.

mbkennel
No, he (and I) am asking "what data" is "the data"? That's a willingness to look at the data and results if available. In particular experimental evidence for gravitons.

As far as I am aware, there is no direct experimental evidence for quantized gravitational bosons which mediate gravity. If this is incorrect please provide information about the scientific manuscript.

There is not even direct experimental evidence for classical gravitational waves.

There is significant indirect evidence for gravitational waves and very strong evidence for overall classical general relativity which predicts classical gravitational waves.

Again here is a link it is a catalog of articles on this subject, which includes experimental results.

tanka418

mbkennel
No, he (and I) am asking "what data" is "the data"? That's a willingness to look at the data and results if available. In particular experimental evidence for gravitons.

As far as I am aware, there is no direct experimental evidence for quantized gravitational bosons which mediate gravity. If this is incorrect please provide information about the scientific manuscript.

There is not even direct experimental evidence for classical gravitational waves.

There is significant indirect evidence for gravitational waves and very strong evidence for overall classical general relativity which predicts classical gravitational waves.

Again here is a link it is a catalog of articles on this subject, which includes experimental results.

Ok all those papers are notes on lectures letters hes sent and discussions on concepts. Hes taking guesses on what he believes ark matter is for example none of this is a scientific paper. If gavitons where to be discovered it would be really big news particle physics could yell see we were right. Unfortunately hes just running speculations in fact a couple contradict them selves. But thats not unusual when your playing with possibilities. Since we dont exactly know gravity is controlled by gravitons. In fact looking at Cerns data we can say there more evidence against gravitons than for them.Though i do believe gravity to be a field interaction much like the Higgs field in fact may be the higs field several experiments are trying to find out what would interact with this gravity field. As yet we have nothing we ruled out Wimps but that really it. All those papers are theoretical models that say well if this is this than we should be able to do this. Now if you want to talk about real space drives modeled in special relativity they will work. But we hit limitations but again we could get to the closest star system within a decade. Could you imagine spending 20 years on a spacecraft counting the return trip.

reply to post by dragonridr


Quick question:

Dark Matter = Quantum Foam ?

Also; please read the papers...they are much more than you think. They contain ALL of the science, and math necessary to understand this system (yet you seem unable to get past the first word).

They also contain experimental apparatus, procedure, etc. Along with...wait for it...experimental results, equations, and an understanding of "why" this thing works...further...it all seems rather straight forward, and contains a kind of simplicity that is truly elegant.

Yet somehow, you seem to miss all this...

Just as the "Hill Star Map" is what we should expect to see in an Extraterrestrial's map; this system is what we should expect to see in a FTL/Space Propulsion system.

I'm not so sorry though that it destroys the myth that great energy is required to reach or exceed the speed of light...but that should have been obvious on the face of it...light speed is not the "barrier" nor the milestone y'all think it is!

tanka418
reply to post by dragonridr

 

Quick question:

Dark Matter = Quantum Foam ?

Also; please read the papers...they are much more than you think. They contain ALL of the science, and math necessary to understand this system (yet you seem unable to get past the first word).

They also contain experimental apparatus, procedure, etc. Along with...wait for it...experimental results, equations, and an understanding of "why" this thing works...further...it all seems rather straight forward, and contains a kind of simplicity that is truly elegant.

Yet somehow, you seem to miss all this...

Just as the "Hill Star Map" is what we should expect to see in an Extraterrestrial's map; this system is what we should expect to see in a FTL/Space Propulsion system.

I'm not so sorry though that it destroys the myth that great energy is required to reach or exceed the speed of light...but that should have been obvious on the face of it...light speed is not the "barrier" nor the milestone y'all think it is!

Ah apparently you didnt read his theory on one of the possibilities in what is dark matter. In order for his drive to work anti matter needs to actually repel matter. Currently that doesnt look like its the case but most of these papers were long before the experiments.As Far as proof i went through 3 of his papers to get the jist of his ideas even in one of his speeches he says this is all theoretical however you take it as fact. So which paper do i need to read that shows us gravitons exist? Look ill make this simple theres lots of theories on how things may work we just cant prove thats how they do work there theories without proof for now.

Your an awesome trollster! Hats off to you sir, hats off.

eezveeneetee
The subject line states my premise. SINCE interstellar travel is impossible, the so-called ET theory is invalid. And your promotion of the ET theory has been central to the UFO "phenomenon" for decades now. You have been foundational in promulgating an entire culture of UFO hysterics. Therefore, you are either sincerely misled, delusional, or an operative in the largest, and most successful PSY-OP in history. You don't strike me as deluding yourself, or mentally imbalanced. So I'll ask, or rather suggest a possible explanation of who Stanton Friedman is, in part. Are you, or have you been, an employee or a contractor of a U.S. government intelligence agency?
It makes a whole lot of sense that you are very possibly a big player in perpetuating a very useful hoax that the government can benefit from: a sensational idea that the wishful would follow like lemmings, and serve to distract the public from various programs they prefer to be hidden. Assuming my theory is correct, the UFO disinformation program has been enormously successful. ET's arriving to our solar locale is an impossible feat. So, Dr. Friedman...are your checks from the government direct-deposited?

ATSZOMBIE
Your an awesome trollster! Hats off to you sir, hats off.

eezveeneetee
The subject line states my premise. SINCE interstellar travel is impossible, the so-called ET theory is invalid. And your promotion of the ET theory has been central to the UFO "phenomenon" for decades now. You have been foundational in promulgating an entire culture of UFO hysterics. Therefore, you are either sincerely misled, delusional, or an operative in the largest, and most successful PSY-OP in history. You don't strike me as deluding yourself, or mentally imbalanced. So I'll ask, or rather suggest a possible explanation of who Stanton Friedman is, in part. Are you, or have you been, an employee or a contractor of a U.S. government intelligence agency?
It makes a whole lot of sense that you are very possibly a big player in perpetuating a very useful hoax that the government can benefit from: a sensational idea that the wishful would follow like lemmings, and serve to distract the public from various programs they prefer to be hidden. Assuming my theory is correct, the UFO disinformation program has been enormously successful. ET's arriving to our solar locale is an impossible feat. So, Dr. Friedman...are your checks from the government direct-deposited?

I agree alot of incorrect assumptions were made saying interstellar flight is impossible because its possible just time consuming. And there are some possibilities that theoretically we can warp space reducing that time considerably. Heres some possibilities for traveling interstellar distances depending on what our research can find.

www.nasa.gov...

reply to post by eezveeneetee


Okay, so i guess all 7 billion of us should take it from you, star travel is impossible, yeah? Sounds legit.

We barely know anything about the universe right now, we have barely even left our planet, a few explorers to the moon barely counts for anything when there are undoubtedly (based on logic) other, far more advanced species that colonize planets outside of their home systems.

Our species, on the galactic scale, is in its infancy, so yeah, interstellar travel, is at the moment a seemingly unattainable asset. But in the future? Who is to say what we can and cannot do in the future? Surely not you.


Our species WILL achieve greatness, and we will grow to stand among our galactic brothers and sisters (the good ones, anyways).

dragonridr
Ah apparently you didnt read his theory on one of the possibilities in what is dark matter.

You shouldn't be so assuming! It does not serve you at all.

And, it seems you have missed the point entirely..."Is Dark Matter the same as Quantum foam?" And if not, what are the differences?

Currently that doesnt look like its the case but most of these papers were long before the experiments.As Far as proof i went through 3 of his papers to get the jist of his ideas even in one of his speeches he says this is all theoretical however you take it as fact. So which paper do i need to read that shows us gravitons exist? Look ill make this simple theres lots of theories on how things may work we just cant prove thats how they do work there theories without proof for now.

Wow...you read 3/10 and you think that's all of it? Want to try again?

Also, we both know that "Gravitons" do not need to exist in the context you are going to [I]insist[/I] upon. And, we both know that all of this is outside the realm of relativistic physics, but, you will insist upon keeping in step with Einstein...that is you loss.

eezveeneetee
The subject line states my premise. SINCE interstellar travel is impossible, the so-called ET theory is invalid. And your promotion of the ET theory has been central to the UFO "phenomenon" for decades now. You have been foundational in promulgating an entire culture of UFO hysterics. Therefore, you are either sincerely misled, delusional, or an operative in the largest, and most successful PSY-OP in history. You don't strike me as deluding yourself, or mentally imbalanced. So I'll ask, or rather suggest a possible explanation of who Stanton Friedman is, in part. Are you, or have you been, an employee or a contractor of a U.S. government intelligence agency?
It makes a whole lot of sense that you are very possibly a big player in perpetuating a very useful hoax that the government can benefit from: a sensational idea that the wishful would follow like lemmings, and serve to distract the public from various programs they prefer to be hidden. Assuming my theory is correct, the UFO disinformation program has been enormously successful. ET's arriving to our solar locale is an impossible feat. So, Dr. Friedman...are your checks from the government direct-deposited?

This is just too much to pass up. I accept your challenge.

An interesting theory was presented to me one time. Assuming the sun were to blow up..we would not know it for several minutes since it would take that long for the that is no longer shining to reach us. Now assume the gravity holding the earth in orbit is a akin to being spun around on a string. Now blow up the sun and cut the string would not the earth move out of orbit immediately thus gravity is an immediate force faster than light. Since the sun is destroyed the mass would no longer generate gravity. Hope that makes sense.

L

Darkstar12
An interesting theory was presented to me one time. Assuming the sun were to blow up..we would not know it for several minutes since it would take that long for the that is no longer shining to reach us. Now assume the gravity holding the earth in orbit is a akin to being spun around on a string. Now blow up the sun and cut the string would not the earth move out of orbit immediately thus gravity is an immediate force faster than light. Since the sun is destroyed the mass would no longer generate gravity. Hope that makes sense.

L

I think you posted in the wrong place however have to admit never thought of it until now. Believe it or not, this is one of the most severe differences between Newton’s old school theory of gravity and Einstein’s General Relativity. According to Newton, you have two masses separated by a distance, and that determines the force. You take one of those masses away, and the force instantly goes away. End of story. In general relativity it isn’t mass, per se, that causes gravity. Rather, all forms of energy (including mass) affect the curvature of space. The Sun disappears its gravity won't affect Earth for another 8+ minutes, and the gravity that the Earth feels right now pulling it towards the Sun is actually pulling it towards where the Sun was 8+ minutes ago. In other words gravity waves move at the speed of light . The reason i find this interesting however is there would be a bounce in space time as it went back to being flat. So the earth would end up riding ripples in spacetime and who knows what would happen, As they say surfs up.

Everything was thought impossible at some point and our age is no exception!

a reply to: eezveeneetee

Just because something isn't possible for us n00b humans, doesn't mean some other technologically advanced alien civilization doesn't have the ability for interstellar travel.

We tend to look at everything from our point of view. Sometimes it's best to take a step back and remove all your preconceived notions before reaching a conclusion such as interstellar travel being impossible.

People used to think flight was impossible, they laughed at the thought of being able to speak to someone on another continent using a hand held device. Both flight and telephone are commonplace now, of they suddenly disappeared the world would panic.

Nothing is impossible.

a reply to: eezveeneetee

If a spaceship could accelerate at 1G it would achieve a round trip to Proxima Centauri (4.2LY + 4.2LY including 1Y acceleration and deceleration etc) in approximately 4 years (12.4 years from earths perspective). We can achieve 1G easily with chemical rockets but not with nuclear powered Ion thrusters. Hopefully the microwave thruster system might show more promise.

Never say never.

Interesting thought experiment with the sun exploding, but of course I would've been extremely surprised if the earth would've immediately been affected by this since according to physics, well, nothing, no information etc. can travel faster than light. So yes, the Earth would experience an 8 minute delay.

As for the OP and "interstellar impossible"....has it already been pointed out that the premise in the OP is "nonsense" since the best term for it right now would rather be "unpractical" since interstellar travel is well possible, although it currently is still rather slow : )

The problem here is...we think in "Newtonian" terms and use concepts like distance, speed etc.
In conventional, Newtonian physics we calculate (example).

* Distance to star X is 5 light years.

* To traverse distance of 5 light years in XYZ amount of time we need a ship traveling at speed XY.

* To get a ship up to speed XY we need to have/spend XYZ energy

* And of course the problem that "conventional" physics doesn't even allow to travel at light speed, let alone faster : )

The issue here is (that in my opinion) interstellar travel doesn't (and will not) work like this, it is not "traversing distance X at speed Y" to reach a destination. Hypothetical (eg. future or Alien etc..) interstellar space travel works *outside* of our Newtonian space. Think about "bending space". Even if we look at UFOs and just assume they do really exist, none of the purported UFOs look like space ships built to traverse giant distances at insane speeds beyond the speed of light. They look actually surprisingly simple and SEEM to make use of some electromagnetic (?) mechanism to "bend" space, so in fact they would not even traversing (ie. "flying") a distance in that sense but merely manipulate space, so they're (presumably) using some sort of warp drive.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: eezveeneetee
Hopefully the microwave thruster system might show more promise.

One of the most puzzling discoveries of recent times (IMHO) especially since no-one really knows how and why it works.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

Yes but no-ome really new about radioactivity until years after madam curie discovery so they will work it out eventually. Lets hope it results in engines strong enough to propel large spaceships.

the thread title and the argument states interstellar travel is impossible. both are wrong.

first off thre is no barrier et the edge of the solar system and several probes have entered or are about to enter interstellar space. the travel they are or will be doing *IS* by definition, interstellar travel. that right there disproves the initial premise. furthermore if you can get something to the sun's escape velocity that object will travel until it runs into something. any such object when its trajectory intersects the gravity influence of another star will by definition have achieved an interstellar journey in the sense i imagine the OP had in mind. the time this takes depends upon how fast the object may travel but the basic premise was interstellar travel is impossible which is clearly false.

one could suppose that what was intended was either relativistic travel is impossible or every theory of FTL travel is impossible. The first is false. the second is arguable but there are several theories that allow it. However I will treat as true the latter supposition for sake of argument. I don't believe that FTL is impossible but i do not need to expend the effort to argue one way or the other. And that is because:

the nearest stars do not require FTL to get to in a reasonable amount of time. Fusion drives top speed will (with sufficent engineering advances ) reach about 30 to 40 percent C. Of course the first fusion engines won't go at speeds truly useful for manned interstellar travel but should suffice for unmanned probes and to easily open up the entire solar system for manned exploration and exploitation. but lets go with fusion engines being able to go .1 C.

this means it takes the ship 10 years to go one light year. Alpha proxima is 4.26 light years away. so it would take 42.6 light years to travel from earth to proxima assuming top speed was maintained all the way. This assumption cannot really happen and was made only to simplify the math. in reality the ship would have to do one of two regimes to get to proxima: it either accelerates all the way to the halfway point then burns to deaccelerate the second half of the journey or it burns as fast as it can to get to top speed then coasts most of the way and deaccelerates as fast as it can at the end of the journey. at .1 c acceleration times could be as short as a few weeks. but at higher speeds this may take 3 months or more. Be that as it may; this does not add much time onto the trip maybe 6 months tops.

42.6 years means almost no traveler could make it a two way trip. so you would need thorough study of the system in advance to know there was somewhere to settle once you get there.

at .2 light speed the trip takes 20.52 years. at this point a two way trip is practical for many people.
at.3 light speed the trip takes (very) roughly 12 years. except for the very elderly anyone could make a 2 way trip.
at. 4 light speed the trip around ten years. maybe a little less.
at .5 light years the trip takes 8.52 years.

what about the above makes such a trip "impossible?"

nothing. the problems are engineering challenges not scientific laws. therefore the OP premise and argument is incorrect.