Interstellar travel impossible, therefore...

originally posted by: moebius
a reply to: teamcommander

I think a lot will depend on whether FTL is possible or not.

What if it is a real constraint of our universe, and nothing can go FTL?

Think of fully automated sleeper ships with cryogenic capsules or self-sustaining space habitats taking generations to reach their destination. Fascinating stuff.


PS:
I am a sucker for hard sci-fi I guess.

Since its been known that some form of interstellar wayfarers have occasionally visited our planet in the recent past, suggests that they have conquered the ways an means of FTL travel, in starships outfitted for such a task.

originally posted by: rom12345
For super luminal speeds that should make short inter stellar trips possible,
we need to figure out how to disengage from the Higg's field.
thus removing the speed limitations imposed upon by mass.
Although it may be an impossible for us now, Imagine favourably the human race in say 1000 years.

Its all possible now imo and have reason to believe that, anything ftl is instant, no inbetween warp speeds

a reply to: Erno86

Since its been known that some form of interstellar wayfarers have occasionally visited our planet in the recent past ...

And you have serious and verifiable sources that support this statement. Sigh. Somehow sad that a somewhat more serious discussion about extraterestrial life and interstellar travel seems not to be possible on ATS.

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
the problems are engineering challenges not scientific laws. therefore the OP premise and argument is incorrect.

They are not so much engineering challenges...IMHO...but fore-mostly challenges for theoretic physics...and INDEED for scientific laws.

For conventional physics and of course for engineers, space travel still means to go from A to B through Newtonian space. Wormholes and bending space with warp drives etc. are still merely theoretical concepts. But those concepts must be verified and then of course applied.

(Another example would be that we KNOW that gravity or speed does actually affect time, but this does not mean that it's now merely a challenge for engineers to build a time machine...if you see what I am saying here). And it's insofar also a challenge for scientific laws as long as scientists/engineers are not willing to think out of the box.

I think engineers come way at the end of the chain, at least if we're talking about warp drives, using quantum fields etc...which in my opinion is the only way for "real" interstellar space travel.

There are NOO problems...
Only atitude...

We could have had colonies on mars by now...
World peace and the end of world hunger
could be here now, all you need is a change
in atitude....

originally posted by: NoRulesAllowed

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
the problems are engineering challenges not scientific laws. therefore the OP premise and argument is incorrect.

They are not so much engineering challenges...IMHO...but fore-mostly challenges for theoretic physics...and INDEED for scientific laws.

Not so much theory as it is Engineering. Here is an [intro to a system that uses a field drive, this system is well beyond the theoretical stage, and while there doesn't "seem" to be anybody developing it, it does look rather promising.

I have done some preliminary engineering work to see just how feasible it might be...looked good, wish I had the resources.

For conventional physics and of course for engineers, space travel still means to go from A to B through Newtonian space. Wormholes and bending space with warp drives etc. are still merely theoretical concepts. But those concepts must be verified and then of course applied.

You say that like there are different "kinds" of space...I know that modern Terrestrial science might like to think that there may be different "kinds" of space; however, there is only One. As in one kind of space, and of course; One space.

(Another example would be that we KNOW that gravity or speed does actually affect time, but this does not mean that it's now merely a challenge for engineers to build a time machine...if you see what I am saying here).

Its called Time Dilation. In theory the faster you move, the slower external time passes. This has been shown to be true at low speeds. It is not known what the resultant effects of various phenomenon on the passage of time at high velocities ( approaching light). The effect that the "Warp drive" fellows use, their "warping" of space time also occurs naturally. At high enough velocities these effects may become useful. There is also the effects of Doppler on the passage of time at extreme velocity

I think engineers come way at the end of the chain, at least if we're talking about warp drives, using quantum fields etc...which in my opinion is the only way for "real" interstellar space travel.

Time for engineering is now...enough of the science currently exists to build machines, deployment will lead to better knowledge, science, and technology...

I'm a 67 year old semi-retired hardware/software engineer; there is absolutely no reason that y'all can't be at Alpha Centuari in my lifetime...

a reply to: eezveeneetee
I am inclined to believe you, mainly because I am so inclined at the moment and am eating a burrito.

However one point brings a glaring hole in your whole argument. That point being--> Pictures or it doesn't exist...How am I supposed to believe a random thread and post by some stranger, which says that interstellar travel is not possibly. When they did not even have the decency to prove there so called fact, by posting a picture of it?

So yes! I want pictures showing that interstellar travel is impossible, or else I will not believe you. Should not be to hard to do right? The internet after all is your friend.

a reply to: eezveeneetee

Me and my ex-girlfriend are definately believers because of what we wittnessed. For U to babble about no other life has visited earth is simply NOT LOGICAL. You think you are the only grain of sand in the desert. You think life doesn't exist anywhere else and cannot be more advanced than U. Well, i hate to bust your tiny bubble, but not only have we been visited, some species are still here now. I do not claim to have any proof, but what me and my ex saw that night would definately be advanced. Things just don't dissapear thru walls. I would say thats advanced stuff to just pass thru walls without a noise. I don't care if u believe or not. The statement to say that is just absolute ignorance on your part. OH and by the way. IF they can travel across, so can we. It a two way street or tunnel. Good luck and don't fall off the edge of the flat world.

I'd like to know exactly who said the laws of physics,
as we know them, apply outside of this planet's atmosphere....or in
another galaxy, for that matter.

originally posted by: Miccey
There are NOO problems...

Only atitude...



We could have had colonies on mars by now...

World peace and the end of world hunger

could be here now, all you need is a change

in atitude....

Great point, i coulden't of said it better. Great attitude and focus thru life. cheers.

a reply to: moonweed

This thinking outside the box is wonderful. cheers and hats off to you.

impossible? Scientists who would suggest
as much without the absolutely necessary disclaimer
of "within our current understandings"...
are short sighted unimaginative and have a poor
understanding of technologies break neck compounding speed.

originally posted by: HotblackDesiato
a reply to: eezveeneetee


No, interstellar travel is perfectly possible with our current level of, stone-age, science and technology. And whilst I only advocate Apparent Faster Than Light (AFTL) drives for the discerning interstellar traveller; just for fun, let's have a look at what brute force ballistics can achieve using Newtonian physics with Einstein's constraints.

We shall be using vanilla nuclear fission for propulsion (or anti-matter if anyone cares to throw enough dough at it).

A ship accelerating at 1g (a somewhat pleasant environment for Earth based humans) will:

• Reach the Moon within 3 hours.
  
• Reach Mars in just over a day.
  
• Reach Neptune within 11 days.
  
• Exit the Solar System in just over 15 days.
  
• Reach 0.9c within 313 days, at which point we will shut off the drive, and cruise, with our mass increased by a comfortable factor of 2.3.
  
• We reach Alpha Centauri in just under 5 years and 89 days.
  

All times above are ship time; 11 years and 59 days will have passed on Earth when we reach Alpha Centauri.

Just off the top of my head, I'd say that you're not calculating any deceleration into your flights.

If acceleration is constant, as you posit in your examples, then deceleration would have to begin at the halfway point if you want to stop at Alpha Centauri.

If you're just passing by, then that's another matter.

Harte

originally posted by: moonweed
I'd like to know exactly who said the laws of physics,
as we know them, apply outside of this planet's atmosphere....or in
another galaxy, for that matter.

Physical phenomena can be observed to be in action in other galaxies through all the various types of telescopes we have, as well as (of course) within our own galaxy.

"...outside of this planet's atmosphere..."???
We've been to the Moon. Same physics there.

We have had multiple maneuverable probes on Mars.
Same physics there too.

We've sent probes throughout most of the solar system.
Same physics everywhere.

Harte

I still hear current science minded investigators, some of which are MUFON state directors, they still quote how things they know of going 43k MPH and then turning at a 90 degree angle would crush any earth pilot. Sure it is true, and it would also crush the pilot who was flying the vehicle, IF they didn't have a way around inertia or g-forces. How to negate those forces? I have always surmised that if their is a force, it can be negated in some manner without conflicting with any law.
How about using energy to create g-forces and direct them to cancel yours'? If they are here and doing that, then it is already an answered question.

Causing mass to be less by means of added or subtracted natural forces. Natural forces are already being countered in many ways through current technology.

I'll say why this isn't mainstream discussion, (although it actually has been in many discussions, just not main stream as often).
This is how it is done, and the evidence is so overwhelming through so many credible reports, that to continue denying it is only fooling those who aren't quite ready to expand their limitations the mainstream academics have tabooed.

It is still tabooed, and then some. But entertaining to those who have understanding. ( I know, the current diehards will use science as a shield and all the other things to counter that, without relying on anything substantial themselves.

It isn't science being butchered, it is a social issue. An issue of human psychology. In a totally unbiased world there would be faster advances.
No reason to go back to the moon, even though that would have fostered faster technology development. People get sick of speed limits and find ways to improve, unless fettered. Are people being fettered by public opinion and peer pressure, ya think?

Edit: Has anyone else noticed how subtle propaganda is and how it attempts to steer people into thinking that since those things zip around like this, they are not nuts and bolts? They don't want anyone to believe they are real physical objects in main stream politicized circles.

Everything today is definitely 100% affected by politics, you can see that clearer than water.

I can think of a long list of things that were once thought to be impossible and used to be "just theoretical", that turned out to be true. Plate tectonics and heliocentrism to name a few. Assuming these beings truly are visiting our planet, Why would their technology and ability to travel vast distances in space be subject to OUR current understanding of science and interstellar space travel? Science fiction today is science fact tomorrow. Have a little faith and keep your eyes in the sky, you'll never know what's up if you're always looking down.

originally posted by: DynamicDynamo
I can think of a long list of things that were once thought to be impossible and used to be "just theoretical", that turned out to be true. Plate tectonics and heliocentrism to name a few. Assuming these beings truly are visiting our planet, Why would their technology and ability to travel vast distances in space be subject to OUR current understanding of science and interstellar space travel? Science fiction today is science fact tomorrow. Have a little faith and keep your eyes in the sky, you'll never know what's up if you're always looking down.

What you ask is exactly what happened when the subject was clamped down on, way back.

It is still the same. Our own level of public knowledge is limiting by proxy, any technology displayed that questions this is pounded into the ground of obsolescence. Or mainstream respected academia scientists only discuss technology that doesn't offer any further possibilities, but instead, is strictly limiting those possibilities. They put human limits on everything you can imagine, which some can see through as being against bucking the status quo.

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed

originally posted by: DynamicDynamo
I can think of a long list of things that were once thought to be impossible and used to be "just theoretical", that turned out to be true. Plate tectonics and heliocentrism to name a few. Assuming these beings truly are visiting our planet, Why would their technology and ability to travel vast distances in space be subject to OUR current understanding of science and interstellar space travel? Science fiction today is science fact tomorrow. Have a little faith and keep your eyes in the sky, you'll never know what's up if you're always looking down.

What you ask is exactly what happened when the subject was clamped down on, way back.

It is still the same. Our own level of public knowledge is limiting by proxy, any technology displayed that questions this is pounded into the ground of obsolescence. Or mainstream respected academia scientists only discuss technology that doesn't offer any further possibilities, but instead, is strictly limiting those possibilities. They put human limits on everything you can imagine, which some can see through as being against bucking the status quo.

The mainstream media is controlled by the tptb, who want to maintain a status quo of sorts to maybe further their own agenda and this is not likely to be shaken down anytime soon.

a reply to: Nochzwei

Exactly right

I have been forming a model of this, and how it is used against the people of the country. This same model shows everything else that is falsified or warped, or just left out, since these things are targetable by sociological patterns of behavior, rather than true fact backing up the reasons these things are happening. Facts and truth, and deceptions all leave different sociological markers by how they are installed and run, and they run differently which leave big patterns that are traceable and even predictable. Media response, non-response. Political responses, a long list of them.

Humans can use facts in a formidable manor, and of course lies as well, but they both leave a different wake of human behavior behind them, and that can be seen and identified. Just like a lie detector, and it might even be more accurate. Or not as easy to defeat.

a reply to: Harte

The deceleration begins approx. 313 days before you wish to stop.