Mayhem Grips Ukrainian Capital

reply to post by zilebeliveunknown


I was a bit in hurry and my words a bit odd.. what i meant the guy who negotiates the next ministry ( prime minister ) is selected by current parliament needs an authorization of the president in here before new ministry takes place. Sure they can start preparations of new parliament, i am not aware of Ukraine system. If the final word is with the President there what difference will it make.
In old days when our President had more power he decided who gathered the ministry and this negotiator became a prime minister, president had a power back then now we have a puppet president who does mainly public relations.

reply to post by Telos


Fair enough - I meant no offence. I understand completely where you stand on this issue and I am sure many people would side with you in that respect. Personally I just don't see how protest (violent at that) will really effect substantial change in society. Going back to OWS, what exactly did that do? If anything things have become much worse since then. And I personally think it was a hijacked movement. Likely had good intentions from the start, but money and power took it over and pushed it in the direction it went.

One can have hope that protest and civil disobedience will bring about significant positive change. However, I see nothing but logical fallacy in hope. Just because you want something to be a certain way, does not make it so. Again, you must WORK to see change - drawing a line in a battlefield, and refusing to let anyone cross it, is NOT work, it is a failure on all levels. Ultimately it is fear which overtakes and steers the direction of that kind of decision making.

I understand the situation in Ukraine is complex and fragile. But it didn't happen over night. Special interests always play a hand in political/ civil upheaval. Did things HAVE to get to this point? Yes, based on how recent history has been playing out. But will it change much for these people? Likely not. Perhaps they will prove me wrong, but I have my doubts.

MessageforAll
Ukraine president, opposition sign EU-brokered agreement on ending crisis

Ukraine's President Viktor Yanukovich and opposition leaders have signed an EU brokered agreement on ending the political crisis in the country.

The agreement followed an announcement by Yanukovich to hold early elections, to form a national unity government and relinquish some of his presidential powers. The agreement was witnessed by EU foreign ministers who brokered the deal.

DETAILS TO FOLLOW

This is somewhat concerning... Emphasis on EU-brokered agreement...
So expect that when the next elections come Ukraine will be joining the EU... Russia will be agitated.

it just means that EU decided to back-off and told the opposition to do the same. as i've said earlier, they've poked the bear. it seems like yanukovich told them that either they'll accept his offer of he'll call moscow to step in.

poor EU ministers down there, they probably had their pants full. it speaks a lot about who was negotiating with whom though. my guess is that the real deal was between EU ministers and yanukovich, and the opposition is just a bunch of pawns in EU's game.

www.itv.com...

jedi_hamster

it just means that EU decided to back-off and told the opposition to do the same. as i've said earlier, they've poked the bear. it seems like yanukovich told them that either they'll accept his offer of he'll call moscow to step in.

poor EU ministers down there, they probably had their pants full. it speaks a lot about who was negotiating with whom though. my guess is that the real deal was between EU ministers and yanukovich, and the opposition is just a bunch of pawns in EU's game.

www.itv.com...

Back off ? What Yanukovich offered for peace was fair ( only if he keeps his words ) it was what people wanted at the first place, new elections and constitutional law which reduce presidential power..maybe the protesters wanted more as they saw they were getting some process. If you get greedy someone needs to tell to stop it, to get somekind of treaty.


reply to post by jedi_hamster


In here people drink very openly they are not ticketed about drinking either nor are they intrested where you got the booze from. Police here when they see a drunken person who is not violent but propably can´t get home in his/her own they even give them a lift home as long as the home is not 20km or more away. I think your goverment has some serious problems.. but your problems are not all EU problems

Ukraine has just won gold medal in Biathlon relay.Congrats !!Perfect time for reuniting and new fresh start for Ukrainan people.
Let's hope in future peace will prevail in this crisis.

Yanukovych was not smiling at a ceremony to sign the deal, and opposition leader Vitaly Klitschko switched seats so he did not have to sit by the president, but the two sides did shake hands, Reuters reports:

A Reuters correspondent at the signing in the presidential headquarters said Yanukovich did not smile during a ceremony lasting several minutes but he did shake hands with the opposition.

Before the ceremony in the ornate Blue Hall of the presidential headquarters, former boxer Vitaly Klitschko swapped place names so that he did not have to sit next to Yanukovich.

reply to post by dollukka


yes, they've backed off. EU did. protesters wanted more, they wanted yanukovich to step down RIGHT NOW. and considering the fact that that band of violent idiots doesn't represent the country as a whole, but rather EU interests in the region, we can safely assume that EU was hoping for the same thing.

yanukovich has drawn the line though. unfortunately, it's not all over. apparently russia considers that line to be too far on the EU's side already, so far they've frozen their financial aid to ukraine. yanukovich cannot step back any further without loosing moscow's support entirely, and i doubt they'll just sit and watch ukraine falling into EU's hands with time.

yanukovich stopped EU for some time, now the question remains open what he'll have to do for moscow. also, even without EU's support those protesters are a bunch of violent fanatics, so everything can be expected from them but peace. especially when EU - at least apparently - may turn their back on them. they may feel left alone, and they'll be pissed off.

it'll end up badly. this is just the beginning.

reply to post by jedi_hamster


Are you saying that Russian negotiators didn´t do his job in the meeting where he was at ? Don´t forget they were there too.
So are you suggesting that EU negotiators got russian ones on their knees and Russia will not be happy about this.. i am sure that Putin also was on the phone when these issues were negotiated.
The guy Putin sent was Vladimir Lukin.

Комендант Майдану і Самооборони під загрозою. З перевірених джерел стало відомо, що снайпери отримали наказ знищити Андрія Парубія. Застерігаємо, що вся відповідальність за можливі наслідки такого злочину лежатиме виключно на Януковичу.

Translation:
The Commandant of the Maidan and Self-defense under threat. From proven sources it became known that the snipers were ordered to destroy Andrew Parubìâ. Discourage, all responsibility for possible consequences of such a crime lies entirely on Yanukovych.

www.facebook.com...

if this is true we will see a lot more bloodshed.

Two streams

rt.com...
www.ustream.tv...

And so the CAT is out the bag.
Russia Freezes Aid For Ukraine; Urges Respect For Legitimate Government

“We planned to allocate another tranche according to that arrangement. Yet in the current situation we have many questions as to how the money will be used and how it will be paid back," said Russian Finance Minister Anton Siluanov, according to ITAR-TASS this morning.

*RUSSIA URGES RESPECT FOR UKRAINE SOVEREIGNTY, LEGITIMATE GOVT

Russia has suspended another tranche of financial aid for Ukraine because of the current tensions and plans to wait until the situation stabilizes to resume support afterwards, Russian Finance Minister Anton Siluanov told Bloomberg on Friday commenting on the Irish Stock Exchange’s report on Ukraine’s refusal to sell two-year Eurobonds of $2 billion. Russia was to buy bonds under the already approved $15 billion aid package.

“We planned to allocate another tranche according to that arrangement. Yet in the current situation we have many questions as to how the money will be used and how it will be paid back," said Siluanov.

Conditions for the second tranche were similar to those of the first, namely a two-year loan at a rate of 5 percent per annum, Siluanov added.

He also doubted the feasibility of currency interventions to support the hryvnia amid political instability.

“The national bank of Ukraine can now make efforts to bolster the hryvnia, but demand for foreign currency amid political uncertainty will remain high,” he said. “Therefore, interventions can prove a waste of gold and currency reserves that will lead to nothing and will not prevent the hryvnia's devaluation."

Of course, we suspect the "deal" does nothing to change their minds - especially as it increases the uncertainty of what the Russian aid will be used for.

I'm sorry but as I stated before Emphasis on EU-brokered deal. I knew something like this was gonna come of it.

reply to post by MessageforAll


Source ? also for a timeline when this news was posted would tell something.

reply to post by dollukka


Whoops my bad^^
www.zerohedge.com... here and
en.itar-tass.com...

Zerohedge is really trustworthy.

reply to post by MessageforAll


January 30

irishnews

Ukraine’s parliament was deadlocked last night over a key measure to ease the country’s crisis, as Russia suspended its bailout to Kiev due to uncertainty over its future path.

This lead to anti protests laws in Ukraine when freedom of speech were significally cut off. So is this the same aid which was denied earlier to push these laws.. have there been any aid to Ukraine within a latest month from Russia ?

dollukka
reply to post by jedi_hamster

 

Are you saying that Russian negotiators didn´t do his job in the meeting where he was at ? Don´t forget they were there too.
So are you suggesting that EU negotiators got russian ones on their knees and Russia will not be happy about this.. i am sure that Putin also was on the phone when these issues were negotiated.
The guy Putin sent was Vladimir Lukin.

edit on 21-2-2014 by dollukka because: (no reason given)

russian negotiator was probably merely an observer/adviser to yanukovich. as i see it (and feel free to disagree, but start reading with understanding and stop putting words in my mouth i didn't say), yanukovich had no choice. he's clearly pro-russian, but that doesn't make him moscow's puppet. if he would be one, he would call moscow for help already, but he didn't want to do that. so here's my guess what happened:

- opposition and EU ministers tell him to step down
- he says that option is not on the table, gives them an offer and either they accept it, or he calls moscow for help
- they accept his offer, because they have no choice

EU didn't loose this one yet, but it's not what they've expected. see, of course people of ukraine weren't extremely happy with yanukovich, but not to a point of creating such mayhem. those are right-wing extremists that created this mess, and they are to blame. of course, western media paints them as 'freedom fighters', 'representants of the people of ukraine' and 'poor, suffering, dying people' - personally i think military should hunt down and shoot down every single one of those assholes, that has any weapon at hand and a will to use it. peaceful protesters with molotov coctails, got it?

moscow was probably counting on yanukovich to implement martial law, and later (read: after olympics) on him calling them to step in. he's kinda screwed, because he wants to be friends with moscow, but without giving up his country's independence. on the other hand, since ukraine is independent, EU and USA sees that as a chance to install their puppet government, and uses right-wing extremists to create bloodshed, then mass-media to twist the reality, to have an excuse to do so. they did it in Libya, in Egypt (but that didn't end up too well), tried in Syria. if all that's left to prevent EU from taking over ukraine is call moscow for help, rest assured yanukovich will do it. so far he seems to be trying to avoid it.

as i've mentioned earlier though, and as was pointed out, moscow has frozen financial aid to ukraine. that's a clear signal to yanukovich 'we're not happy with the way you're playing this game'. and regardless of what he'll do, moscow won't allow ukraine to fall into western hands, that's not an option. it's possible though that they're playing it together with yanukovich - giving EU an offer they know will fail, because the extremists won't stop fighting - and then yanukovich will be able to say 'i did what i could to solve this peacefully'. will EU watch russian tanks rolling into ukraine doing nothing? we'll see.

jedi_hamster
personally i think military should hunt down and shoot down every single one of those assholes, that has any weapon at hand and a will to use it. peaceful protesters with molotov coctails, got it?

Wow.. even those 150 women ( local civilians ) who protected a local hospital in small town near Kiev from goverment/military to snatch injured protesters which were moved there because hospitals in Kiev were all full. According to law in Ukraine those women were now also protesters.

source

– Poliisi kävi pidättämässä sairaalaan tuotuja potilaita, jotka olivat loukkaantuneet Itsenäisyysaukiolla. Nyt täällä sairaalan edustalla on noin 150 naista ja haluamme estää potilaiden kaappaamisen.

Translation: - Police went to the hospital to arrest imported from patients who were injured in the Independence Square. Now here's a hospital in the foreground is about 150 women, and we want to prevent the interception of patients.

reply to post by SLAYER69


The deal is whether or not the EU can impose it's Third Energy Package against Gazprom, Russia's largest and the worlds biggest gas producer. By doing so, or if the Ukrainian government decides to side with the EU, this proposal drafted in March of 2011 will deal a heavy blow against the Kremlin and the oligarchs who enjoy a monopoly on the market.

reply to post by SLAYER69

Double post

reply to post by dollukka


they throw molotov cocktails, they get hurt, they get what they've asked for.
anyone giving aid to such domestic terrorists is also getting what he asked for.

now, i'm not saying they should shoot at those women - unless, of course, they start throwing molotovs at police officers, then they'll get what they've asked for.

you try hurting another people, especially police officers - you CANNOT expect to not get hurt yourself. are you so damn blind to the reality that just because mass media paints those extremists as innocent people, you consider them to be above the law? how about those police officers that got killed? how do you know if those protesters being protected in that hospital, aren't murderers?

you don't.

reply to post by jedi_hamster


They are peaceful protesters by giving an aid. That is what that law made them, anyone who give any aid or support to protesters are also protesters. Beside snatching patients from hospital or churches is really unethical and brutal. Even in previous wars and war conventions there have been laws about injured people to guarantee their safety. Whatever happened in past few days in Ukraine has been quite serious human rights violations and crimes against the humanity.

Maybe those college students who started peaceful protest in last December but were brutally attacked by police force had no right to speech at all...

Molotov cocktail.. thats acceptable ? Finns used molotov cocktails in WW2 to exlode russian tanks and they made quite a damage

dollukka
reply to post by jedi_hamster

 

They are peaceful protesters by giving an aid. That is what that law made them, anyone who give any aid or support to protesters are also protesters. Beside snatching patients from hospital or churches is really unethical and brutal. Even in previous wars and war conventions there have been laws about injured people to guarantee their safety. Whatever happened in past few days in Ukraine has been quite serious human rights violations and crimes against the humanity.

Maybe those college students who started peaceful protest in last December but were brutally attacked by police force had no right to speech at all...

Molotov cocktail.. thats acceptable ? Finns used molotov cocktails in WW2 to exlode russian tanks and they made quite a damage

edit on 21-2-2014 by dollukka because: (no reason given)

i'm not defending any of the sides, all i'm saying is that those right-wing extremists, calling themselves 'protesters' and in reality being a bunch of terrorists and idiots, are the main reason behind all that bloodshed. if they wouldn't use lethal force against police officers (did you know that police wasn't using deadly ammo at the beginning? they were forced to do so), many people wouldn't die.

i am SICK of all this BS about human rights violations and crimes against humanity. you pick up molotov cocktail or a gun and start injuring police officers, you have every right in this world to get a bullet in your head. that is the law. don't like it? don't break it. russia was perfectly right that this was - and perhaps still is - an attempt to overthrow the government with violence. you blame the government for trying to stop the chaos? how about blaming those that CAUSED it?

i'm not even sure how should i understand your comment about molotovs, if you didn't notice - they were used BY THE PROTESTERS. if you find that acceptable, well. google some photos of people getting hit by those.

as for peaceful protesters giving aid - when you give aid to a murderer, you get what you've asked for. this situation is no different, and you call it unethical and brutal? and throwing molotovs at the police isn't brutal and unethical?

and please, don't compare those protesters to soldiers fighting in wars. this isn't a war, this is a random, unneeded clusterf.. full of blood, and they are criminals.

reply to post by jedi_hamster

You stated quite clearly your opinion and use of violence towards protesters acceptable,
you made quite clear that

personally i think military should hunt down and shoot down every single one of those assholes, that has any weapon at hand and a will to use it. peaceful protesters with molotov coctails, got it?

also said

they throw molotov cocktails, they get hurt, they get what they've asked for. anyone giving aid to such domestic terrorists is also getting what he asked for.

i have not put words in your mouth i have just asked few questions.
My statement about molotovs, if you didn´t get it, were used towards heavy tanks in WW2 because they do great damage.. if they do damage to tanks they also do serious damage to people so how can that be in any mean acceptable?