Deciphering the Pagan Stones

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

I love it when you pop in and notice the obvious!

Fifty chariots for my royal equipment I selected. The city I rebuilt. I made it greater than it was before. People of the lands I had conquered I settled therein. My official (Tartan) I placed over them as governor. (L.ii.4.) [4]

While Log's looking at Am Broch, I'm going to check out this Tartan fellow.

a reply to: beansidhe

Thanks Beans! (I think!!! LOL)
Hey - Did I catch you mentioning the commonwealth games earlier???
Well, you're going to LOVE this one...
HERE's the Medal table as of this morning:

and HERE's how it would look if you took population into account. (Medals won, per 100,000 of population)


GO SCOTLAND!!!!!
LOL

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

I love it when you pop in and notice the obvious!

Fifty chariots for my royal equipment I selected. The city I rebuilt. I made it greater than it was before. People of the lands I had conquered I settled therein. My official (Tartan) I placed over them as governor. (L.ii.4.) [4]

While Log's looking at Am Broch, I'm going to check out this Tartan fellow.

I should have known you would notice that.

Wow now and Am Broch just happens to be one of those vitrified hill forts with evidence of iron working near the sea for out shipping. An outpost surrounded by carvings of bulls. Now that's something, a wider picture and location than I had before about the place! The clearer picture is that iron workers just may now how to get temperatures high enough rather than the idea that some skull scratching nomads just happened to produce some vitrification. I mean wow! The knowledge that there was iron working going on there makes all the arguments and discussion that was made about HOW they got the rocks to vitrify and outside that knowledge, look rather stupid.

We have claims made in the 1800, here in Ohio, Squire and Davis, of vitrification on an ancient iron working hill fort. Known as Fort Ancient. It is on private property, The land owner let me snoop around up there back a few years ago. One man in the know about the Ohio hill forts told me a British team had come over to check out the forts back in the 80's. I have never seen any information about their findings if they were ever published. There is another hill fort just down the road from Ft Ancient called Ft Hill which shown sighs of attempted vitrification which I have seen personally. The strategic construction of the forts also demonstrate the same construction as British and European hill forts. There are about a dozen hill forts of various sizes in this state and all run along the same hill formation that comes up out of the plain area at the Appellation Mountain foothills. Seen on a map they look more like occupational Forts.

Another man Arlington Mallory look into it over 100 years later, dug up some iron working operations in that part of the state. I have the mans book that he wrote about his findings with pictures ect but his work has been BURRIED! for the most part.

originally posted by: Gordi The Drummer

originally posted by: Logarock

“We have reasonable grounds for regarding the Gimirri, or Cimmerians, who first appeared on the confines of Assyria and Media in the seventh century B.C., and the Sacae of the Behistun Rock, nearly two centuries later, as identical with the Beth-Khumree of Samaria, or the Ten Tribes of the House of Israel.”[9]

Link

Gimirri or Cimmerians-Cymry the people, Cymraeg or y Gymraeg, the language. I mean really, talk about a etymological no brainer.
Sacae-Saxon

Hi guys!
This is probably a very very small point but in the tradition of me stating the obvious!!... did you notice in the main body of text from Log's link -

Sargon records his first campaign on the walls of the royal palace at Dur-Sharrukin (Khorsabad):
In my first year of reign *** the people of Samaria *** to the number of 27,290 ... I carried away.
Fifty chariots for my royal equipment I selected. The city I rebuilt. I made it greater than it was before.
People of the lands I had conquered I settled therein. My official (Tartan) I placed over them as governor. (L.ii.4.) [4]

Tartan?
Could this be where the early Celts got their association with tartan cloth?

G

Hi Gordi. Yea it just keeps on pilling up doesn't it.

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

No, no, it was a compliment, lol! Nice table there, Scotland did us proud!

Tartan is a title, and seems to be the King's aide particularly in charge of the army. Tartan the word for cloth is said to come from the French tiretain (woven).
In Gaelic it is called breacan and there is no semitic equivalent. Unless...you think for a minute about 'Joseph's coat of many colours' (one bit of the bible I do actually remember). Who's to say it wasn't tartan?

As far as the word itself I can't find a link, but that means absolutely nothing - just another 'coincidence'!

a reply to: Logarock

Yes, I found the bull stones really interesting too. An iron producing centre leads naturally to a centre for weaponry, feeding the locals and visitors with swords to keep all manner of invaders out. It does give a clearer picture and a much more organised and sophisticated picture than we are led to believe. Vitrification makes more sense, particularly in a 'factory' like set up.

Ohio has to be one of the more interesting states in the US, there's a lot going on there. I'll check out Mallory, that does make me curious.

On the subject of landscape, it's funny but that's where I went after Gordi's 'tartan' suggestion - over to the Golan Heights. A very curious place by the sea of Galilee:

In biblical times, this area (known as Bashan) was known for its cattle and its oak trees. Amos 4:1-2 (NASB) “Hear this word, you cows of Bashan..." (cf. Ps 22:12). Zechariah 11:2 (KJV) “Howl, fir tree; for the cedar is fallen; because the mighty are spoiled: howl, O ye oaks of Bashan; for the forest of the vintage is come down” (cf. Isa 2:13).

Golan Heights

Oaks are always interesting, but there is more...



Dolmens in themselves are not unheard of in the area, but look at this:

Rogem Hiri (in Arabic, Rujm al-Hiri) is located in the Golan Heights about 10 miles (16 km) east of the Sea of Galilee. Four concentric circles surround a central cairn. The largest circle measures 150 m (490 ft) in diameter. The walls measure up to 3.5 m (11.5 ft) in width and have been preserved up to 2.5 m (8 ft) high.
Its last use was no later than the Late Bronze Age (1500-1200 B.C.). The function of Rogem Hiri is not known. Suggestions include that it was a defensive complex, a burial complex, an astronomical observation center, or the tomb of Og, giant king of Bashan (Deut 3:11).

What are the chances of the tomb of Og being almost identical to the landscape at Tara? I can't, with my hand on my heart, accept these as coincidences really anymore, it's becoming ridiculous!

a reply to: beansidhe

Re the TARTAN - (Tiretaine)

FROM: etymonline.com
tartan (n.) "kind of woolen fabric," mid-15c., perhaps from Middle French tiretaine "strong, coarse fabric" (mid-13c.), from Old French tiret "kind of cloth," from tire "silk cloth," from Medieval Latin tyrius "cloth from Tyre" (see Tyrian).

Tyrian (adj.) 1510s, from Latin Tyrius "of Tyre," (Latin Tyrus), island-city in the Levant,
from Greek Tyros, from Hebrew/Phoenician tzor, literally "rock, rocky place."
Especially in reference to Tyrian purple, a dye chemically similar to indigo, made there in ancient times from certain mollusks (Murex brandaris).

FROM wiki:
Tyre Tyre (Arabic: صور, Ṣūr; Phoenician: צור, Ṣur; Hebrew: צוֹר, Tzor; Tiberian Hebrew צר, Ṣōr; Akkadian: 𒋗𒊒 Ṣurru; Greek: Τύρος, Týros; Turkish: Sur; Latin: Tyrus), sometimes romanized as Sour, is a city in the South Governorate of Lebanon....
Tyre juts out from the coast of the Mediterranean and is located about 80 km (50 mi) south of Beirut. The name of the city means "rock"[3] after the rocky formation on which the town was originally built. The adjective for Tyre is Tyrian, and the inhabitants are Tyrians.
Tyre is an ancient Phoenician city and the legendary birthplace of Europa and Elissa (Dido).

What was the chat earlier in the thread??? regarding Kintyre??? the Kin of Tyre???
I think it had something to do with the Epidii?

Isn't it curious that the source of the name for Tartan can also be linked to Tyre?

Am I off on a tangent again?? LOL
G

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

No, you're amazing!

I didn't think of following up on the French etymology. Foolishly I just accepted what I was told, and hell mend me!
So it is a semitic word, I wish I could applaud that Gordi, that's uncanny.

a reply to: beansidhe

hay check out ancient Circleville Ohio. I haven't yet online anyway and cant now must run.

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer


For crying out loud.

a reply to: Logarock

I had a look. On the banks of the Scioto river, no less? Lol! That's a whole new thread on it's own!

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: Logarock

I had a look. On the banks of the Scioto river, no less? Lol! That's a whole new thread on it's own!

Yea and that's said to be what the natives called it.

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: beansidhe

hay check out ancient Circleville Ohio. I haven't yet online anyway and cant now must run.

Hi Log!
OK folks... strap yourselves in... it's about to get bumpy AGAIN!

CIRCLEVILLE OHIO
FROM Wiki
Circleville was founded in 1810. It derived its name from the circular portion of a large Hopewell culture earthwork upon which it was built.

Which leads us to...
The HOPEWELL Culture

Hopewell on Wiki
The Hopewell tradition (also called the Hopewell culture) describes the common aspects of the Native American culture
that flourished along rivers in the northeastern and midwestern United States from 200 BCE to 500 CE.
The Hopewell tradition was not a single culture or society, but a widely dispersed set of related populations.
They were connected by a common network of trade routes,[1] known as the Hopewell Exchange System.

...Hopewell populations originated in western New York and moved south into Ohio where they built upon the local Adena mortuary tradition.

Which leads us to...
The ADENA Culture

ADENA culture on Wiki
The Adena culture was a Pre-Columbian Native American culture that existed from 1000 to 200 BCE, in a time known as the Early Woodland period.
The Adena culture refers to what were probably a number of related Native American societies sharing a burial complex and ceremonial system.

Including...
Grave Creek Mound - At 69 feet (21 m) high and 295 feet (90 m) in diameter, is the largest conical-type burial mound in the United States.
It is located in Moundsville, West Virginia.

Which leads us to...
The GRAVE CREEK TABLET
LINK to Grave Creek Tablet on WVencyclopedia

Which was found at the Adena Grave Creek Mound:


At the time of its discovery, Tomlinson and the others did not attach any significance to the tablet,
believing the characters carved into one side of the stone simply to be Indian hieroglyphs.

Soon after, however, Henry Rowe Schoolcraft, an eminent ethnographer, studied the tablet
and became convinced that the characters were carved by Celts from ancient Spain or Britain, rather than early American Indians.

er.... WOW?

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

Wowsers! The Adena culture/Celts/Sea people maybe, came up recently in the Serpent Mounds of Scotland thread which I knocked up recently (not to be a smart arse or anything!)

The Grave Creek tablet is really interesting. I was trying to compare it to the writing on the Newton Stone, but I'm not sure. I find the Ohio area fascinating. America seemed to get populated very quickly though, from the incomers a couple of hundred years ago didn't it? It always seemed a bit unlikely to me.

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer


At Chillicothe, just south of Circleville, there was at one time a major Hopewell/Adena city complex. That's another very interesting study.

Anyway, the two forts I mentioned were very near this complex as were the reported ancient iron working locations. This part of the state, the southern and eastern foothills was rich in iron ore practically jumping right out of the ground at you. Its generally called the Handing rock iron region. The specific area is just one county away from Chillicothe. Some speculate that this area like the Michigan copper fields were long ago known as abundant supplies of ore even back into BC bronze and early iron periods in Europe.

It just so happens that the very first iron furnace set in operation was named Hopewell furnace and was established in 1804.

Iron Just Poured From The Ground

NEW PICTISH STONE FOUND!!!

Weighing more than a ton and stretching to 1.7m, the Dandaleith Stone dates from the 6th to 8th Centuries and was uncovered during the ploughing of a field near Craigellachie in May 2013.
Because of sensitivities around the location as well as the issue of having to work out how to remove a stone of its size - and where to move it to - archaeologists have revealed little about the find until now.

BBC Scotland story

Face one is carved with a large eagle, a crescent and what archaeologists call a V-rod. On face two are mirror case, notch rectangle and Z-rod symbols.

a reply to: beansidhe

Wow that's a classic example.

a reply to: Logarock

It's got it all! My mother was complaining about a huge rock buried under a fuschia bush she was trying to move in February, this year. I kept telling her to dig it out - who knows! She wouldn't though (too heavy) so it's still there. Although I would probably faint if I caught a glimpse of a Z rod!

I came across these curios :

Pair of gold discs, Tedavnet, Co. Monaghan. Early Bronze Age, 2200 bc -2000 bc. Discovered in the roots of an old tree, this pair of discs is the largest and most sophisticated of the Early Bronze Age discs known from Ireland.

A History of Ireland in 100 Objects

One interpretation of the gold discs is that they were placed as symbolic breasts on the chest of a king, creating an image that fused the leader with the life-giving deity…

That put me in mind of Manly P Hall's plate of a Druid in The Secret Teachings :



Torques of this kind have been found -



But anyway, these discs are in Ireland right in the Tuatha era, and suspected to be connected to Kings (or Queens?). And lo and behold, we have some contemporaneous ones in Scotland too:

These four gold discs were found at the Knowes of Trotty at Huntiscarth on Orkney in a burial which also contained amber jewellery and dress accessories. They originally covered conical 'buttons' or studs, and were objects of great value and prestige. The discs are made of very thin gold sheet, decorated by stamping the foil from the underside. The decoration resembles that on Scottish pots. One disc is nearly complete and three are fragmentary. Analysis of the gold has shown that it is from Scotland. Only the wealthiest and highest status people had access to gold and amber in Bronze Age Britain. Decorated sheet gold discs like these are also known from Ireland. The fashion derived from Continental Europe.

National Museum of Scotland

I should note that these were found in a barrow, suggesting the burial of an important (royal?) individual. See also Orkneyjar for more on the excavation.

So maybe double discs used to suggest royalty, royal lineage...bloodline? There should be some remnant of this custom somewhere if this is the case, I want to find it!

ETA: The Scottish examples are later, 1500 bc-2000 bc - Milesian era (well, nearly).

I'm off-symbol here, but I just came across these Hittite perfume bottles (something that doesn't happen every day).

The combination of tubular flask and hand-shaped spoon-stopper was imitated in clay, usually with a polished brown slip, in a number of examples found both at the centers of Hittite culture in Asia Minor and in adjacent regions, including North Syria. All apparently date to the 15th and 13th centuries B.C. The Anatolian specialist, Kurt Bittel has suggested that such clay arms may have been used to pour libations for divine statues which were either physically inaccessible or religiously taboo for human hands–or both.

Penn Museum

Our 'bowed dog' perhaps? Ok, back to bronze age gold discs..

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: Logarock



That put me in mind of Manly P Hall's plate of a Druid in The Secret Teachings :

The sun between the two equinox. Reaping the good things.