Deciphering the Pagan Stones

originally posted by: atomik22
a reply to: beansidhe
Pretty interresting. I think they had a better understanding of water than we have... Like the egyptians. Also, it seems that the "water vortex" is linked to harvest like the stone I embedded which seems to have something growing from it... A tree or wheat maybe.

The dog on the bottom look like a horn of some sort. A horn is also often depicted on egyptian hieroglyph. Edward Leedskalnin has also a horn on one of his Coral Castle wall.

Well I am maybe linking too much things which are not related. Who knows!

No, you're not, there are Egyptian links to these stones. The tree you've pointed out could be the Tree of Life, as it appears on other stones in its 'tree-ey' form (like a tree). The dog looks very like the Babylonian 'God staffs', the way it hangs its head and its flat 'bottom'; it has no feet or legs, it just sort of ends. You can see some below, far left and far right in the picture:



There are unmistakable Thracian, Dacian, Babylonian, Etruscan and Phoenician influences in these stones - it's really astounding.

I'm starting to get cross-eyed over this, but then again if it was simple, we wouldn't be here digging through millennia of myths, legends and art.

In Scotland, the most common DNA haplogroup is R1b:



Haplogroups

The Picts, specifically, are thought to be R1b S530

Dr. Wilson indicates that he, in conjunction with Scotland’s DNA, an ancestry testing company that he is affiliated with, a new SNP, S530 has been discovered and it is a Pict marker. He says that this marker is evidence that the Picts are living among us today and can be identified genetically. As proof, he offers that 10% of the 1000 Scottish men tested carry this marker, while it is found in only .8% of English men and about 3% of the men in Northern Ireland. Dr. Wilson indicates that this marker is 10 times more prevalent in men with Scottish grandfathers than men with English grandfathers.

DNA explained

Now this gentleman, writing in a Russian journal/paper(?) earlier this year makes some fascinating claims and I am not educated enough in this field to have an opinion, unfortunately. But I'm interested...

Haplogroups R1b and R1a appeared in the Middle East much later, contributing to Jewish groups (or, rather, to the ancestors of Jewish groups) between 4,000 and 5,500 years ago. These R1b and R1a ancestors were nomads, amongst who were the wandering Sumerians (שומרים) and Akkadians (אכדים), and others who then lived in the Middle East. Approximately 4,000 years ago in Mesopotamia, there lived the common ancestor of the future Jews (and the Arabs)...

Calculations immediately showed that the common ancestor of Jews and Arabs lived about 4,000 years ago. This is the time when the Biblical Abraham lived, although the haplotypes in the branch do not, of course, disclose his name. Thus, we have shown that Abraham belonged to haplogroup J1, correct?

No, not quite; exactly the same picture appears, in principle, in the haplotype tree of haplogroup J2...(and again in haplogroup R1a).....


They (R1b's) were initially from the Middle East, arriving there from Anatolia and the Caucasus, and the “age” of the R1b Jews was about 5,500 years, 1,500 years earlier than the time of arrival of R1b in Europe.

It turns out that Abraham evidently had three haplotypes - one in haplogroup J1, the second in haplogroup J2, and the third in haplogroup R1a. This can be interpreted to mean that Abraham was a collective figure, although his lifetime coincides with the Biblical descriptions and interpretations of the Jewish sages. It is clear that Jews and Arabs, and their bloodlines, separated from each other in those times. The Bible tells the story of the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael; it is Isaac and Ishmael, who founded, respectively, the lines of Jews and Arabs. Thus, these calculations have confirmed that while the Bible contains mythical stories, the Bible and the Torah reflect history correctly in recounting the origin of Jews and Arabs from one ancestor (in their haplogroup), and the time period in which that ancestor lived.

Klyosov article

I only started reading the article because the wee blonde boy in the photo could be my nephew! But wow. Pretty eye opening stuff.

(Wee prob there with the Klyosov link, Beans) Thank you for the update. I had never heard of the S530 branch of R1b and this is I find most interesting. I'd love to be able to afford one of these tests on a whim, but they are so extortionate it's not even worth it. I have bills to pay as I'm quite sure the testers themselves do. Alas, it's not going to happen.

a reply to: Ramcheck

Even the Scotland DNA project charges a fortune for this, it's so annoying. And I'd have to be a man to test. Grr!
Anyway sorry about the link - this should do it:

Klyosov article

a reply to: Ramcheck

Still on DNA - wow.

Hundreds of County Mayo, Ireland residents gathered earlier this week to learn first hand what their DNA could show them about their ancient past. From Viking ancestry to descending from Niall of the Nine Hostages, the genetics of County Mayo proved intriguing, reaching far beyond Guinness and the rolling green landscape.

National Geographic

Group R1b's came over, between 5000-2500BC, from Spain. Fact.

Just like we were told in the Lebor Gabala if you remember.

The Lebor Gabála, which was probably first written in the 11th century AD by Christian monks, purports to be a history of Ireland and the Irish (the Gaels). It tells us that all mankind is descended from Adam through the sons of Noah, and that a man named Fénius Farsaid (descendant of Noah's son Japheth) is the forebear of the Gaels. Fénius, a prince of Scythia, is described as one of 72 chieftains who built the Tower of Babel. His son Nel weds Scota, daughter of an Egyptian pharaoh, and they have a son named Goídel Glas. Goídel crafts the Goidelic (Gaelic) language from the original 72 languages that arose after the confusion of tongues. Goídel's offspring, the Goidels (Gaels), leave Egypt at the same time as the Israelites (the Exodus) and settle in Scythia. After some time they leave Scythia and spend 440 years wandering the Earth, undergoing a series of trials and tribulations akin to those of the Israelites, who spent 40 years wandering in the wilderness. Eventually, they reach Iberia by sea and conquer it.

In other words, from Wiki again:

In the Lebor Gabála Érenn, a medieval Christian pseudo-history of Ireland, the Milesians are the Gaels who came from Iberia and settled in Ireland.

Except this isn't pseudo history, nor does it purport to be history.

It is history.

a reply to: beansidhe

From the read you posted.

Abraham’s son Isaac had two sons, Esau and Jacob (Ishmael was the uncle of Esau and Jacob). Jacob fathered 12 sons, who became the founders of the 12 tribes of Israel. These sons were Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph and Benjamin. (Jacob also had a daughter, Dina, who of course did not inherit her father’s haplogroup and haplotype.) After Joseph’s death, his two sons, Ephraim and Menasheh, who were born in Egypt before the arrival of Jacob’s family, received equal rights with the rest of his 12 sons, so they too are the founders of tribes of Israel. So the total, after Joseph’s death, was 13 tribes.

A correction here, folks miss it all the time. Ephraim didn't simply receive equal rights, he received the Birthright, which is another story. He was granted this not by his father Joseph but by the family patriarch Jacob while on his deathbed. This didn't happen after Josephs death but before even granddad had died.

Also and very important. As important as anything here in these family lines are the women. Abrahams wife Sara.....her seed was blessed, out of her womb. That blessing transferred from her to Isaac, and then to Jacobs children. In effect and in reality Look it up and read it for yourself. She was Hittite, fair or white maybe even blond. Isaacs wife, Rebecca, was taken from relatives back in the homeland. Jacobs first two sister wives were also taken from close relatives back in the homeland.

Also of note is the woman that gave birth to Judah's two sons. As the story goes God killed two of Judah's sons for not wanting to have children by her. Judah was tricked into having two sons by her.......from which came the two Jewish king lines.

a reply to: beansidhe


Zaragoza Spain......named after father and line of Jews Zara. The other line from which David came out was the Pharez line. They were twins.

a reply to: Logarock

Pharez line? I wonder if that's where the Faroe Islands gets its name from?

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: beansidhe


Zaragoza Spain......named after father and line of Jews Zara. The other line from which David came out was the Pharez line. They were twins.

I checked that out because I was pretty sure that Zaragoza along with Sociedad are among the main political hubs of modern mainland Spain. When either the left or right want to make a statement (cause trouble) In Spain they tend to go for cities like this as opposed to the tourist hotspots on the Costa's, which would surely be a bad PR move.. Anyway I'm not saying at all that Wiki is the be all and end all either but it does suggest that) Zaragoza is a name derived from Caesar Augusta, Roman. An interesting area certainly given it's proximity to the Catalan regions. Originally inhabited by a Sedetani Tribe (of Iberians) from which here is a coin..



Apparently.

a reply to: Ramcheck

Yea right along the Ebro river.

a reply to: Logarock

The Greeks called the river Ἴβηρ (Ibēr), and the Romans called it the Hiber, the Iber, or Iberus Flumen, leading to its current name. The Iberian peninsula and the Hibēri or Ibēri (the people of the area) were named after the river.[2] It is not known with any certainty whether the Greeks used a local native name for the river, nor what the words "Iber" or "Hiber" might mean.

Ebro in Spanish, Ebre in Catalan. Wonder what it means?

Here's a cute thing:

Egypt, Steatite Scarab, Hyksos Type, 13th - 17th Dynasty, c. 1780 - 1550 B.C.

The Hyksos were Asiatic (probably Canaanite) people who in arrived in Egypt in the 11th Dynasty, began their climb to power in the 13th Dynasty, and by the 15th Dynasty, ruled lower Egypt. At the end of the 17th Dynasty, they were expelled.

Stone Antiquities

Expelled, you say?

The Hyksos brought several technical improvements to Egypt, as well as cultural impulses such as new musical instruments and foreign loan words.[9] The changes introduced include new techniques of bronze working and pottery, new breeds of animals, and new crops.[9] In warfare, they introduced the horse and chariot,[10] the composite bow, improved battle axes, and advanced fortification techniques.[9]

Did they now?

In his Against Apion, the 1st-century AD historian Josephus Flavius debates the synchronism between the Biblical account of the Exodus of the Israelites from Egypt, and two Exodus-like events that the Egyptian historian Manetho apparently mentions. It is difficult to distinguish between what Manetho himself recounted, and how Josephus or Apion interpret him. Josephus identifies the Israelite Exodus with the first exodus mentioned by Manetho, when some 480,000 Hyksos "shepherd kings" (also referred to as just 'shepherds', as 'kings' and as 'captive shepherds' in his discussion of Manetho) left Egypt for Jerusalem.[15] The mention of "Hyksos" identifies this first exodus with the Hyksos period (16th century BC).

Oh good grief.

The story of the Hyksos was known to the Greeks,[40] who attempted to identify it within their own mythology with the expulsion from Egypt of Belos (Baal?[41] and the daughters of Danaos, associated with the origin of the Argive dynasty.

The daughters of Danaos, the mother Danoas? No, no, no!

In Greek mythology Danaus, or Danaos (Ancient Greek: Δαναός), was the twin brother of Aegyptus and son of Achiroe and Belus, a mythical king of Egypt. The myth of Danaus is a foundation legend (or re-foundation legend) of Argos, one of the foremost Mycenaean cities of the Peloponnesus. In Homer's Iliad, "Danaans" ("tribe of Danaë") and "Argives" commonly designate the Greek forces opposed to the Trojans.

Is it just me, or are there an awful lot of Danaans about?

The point of all of the above (as well as the design of the scarab which was what I was originally going to be writing about) is that, as far as I can see, there is no difference between the sea people known as the tribe of Dan or people of the Goddess Danu/Danaos. Making the Tuatha de Danaan 'Dan etymology'debate null and void.

One is a tribe of Israel, the other is a Semitic Canaanite group who were expelled from Egypt, despite being jolly good metal workers and horse people.

These are the same people are they not?

a reply to: beansidhe

Probably the same thing that Dnieper and Danube mean.

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: Logarock

The Greeks called the river Ἴβηρ (Ibēr), and the Romans called it the Hiber, the Iber, or Iberus Flumen, leading to its current name. The Iberian peninsula and the Hibēri or Ibēri (the people of the area) were named after the river.[2] It is not known with any certainty whether the Greeks used a local native name for the river, nor what the words "Iber" or "Hiber" might mean.

Ebro in Spanish, Ebre in Catalan. Wonder what it means?

Hebrew......H-ebre-w.... H-ebro-w

a reply to: Logarock

That was my feeble (very feeble) attempt at sarcasm lol!
It seems to follow a pattern - an ebr, hebr, ebro word with no local etymology to explain it as a local word. Another cover up?

a reply to: Logarock

Did the Israelites take anything specific with them when they left Egypt? Were they told to bring anything?

a reply to: Ramcheck

Genealogy from the Lebor Gabala:

Lebor Gabala Erenn

Noah, Magog, etc etc Nel marries Scota, parents to Goidel Glas etc etc.
There is a mention of Cinge here -the father of the Picts -

Four chieftains had they who were not despicable, after coming over the Libyan Sea: Allot, Lamfhind swift over the ocean, Cing and his brother Caicher. Caicher found a remedy for them yonder for the melody of the Sirens: this is the remedy that fair Caicher found, to melt wax in their ears.

Good to know they were not despicable, at least to this author. Cing and Caicher the Druid were the sons of Eber (Eber?):

Good were the chieftains, it was sufficient, who came out of Scythia; Agnomain, Eber without blemish, the two sons of Tait son of Ogamain. Allot, Lamfhind of the green hand, conspicuous the two sons of very bright Agnomain, Caicher and Cing, fame with victory the two good sons of Eber of the red-steed.

I'm not sure if red steed is a mistranslation of 'rubrus mare' ie red horse, from the Latin 'rubrus mare' ie Red Sea?? Here it says:

The crews of four ships were the tale of his host along the red Mare Rubrum: in his house of planks, we may say, twenty- four wedded couples.

Either way, the Lebor Gabala has both the Scots then and the Picts as coming via Scythia. This fits in with what we've learned, that these groups would call on each other for back up. So Eber was the father of Cing? The plot thickens!

ETA The Kings List of Ireland has Eber listed in around 1286 or 1700BC.

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: Logarock

Did the Israelites take anything specific with them when they left Egypt? Were they told to bring anything?

Well as the story goes the Zara Jews were run out of Egypt prior to the rest being reduced to slavery. They spread around the Mediterranean area and set up shop.

As far as the rest what do you mean about bringing anything?

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: Logarock

That was my feeble (very feeble) attempt at sarcasm lol!
It seems to follow a pattern - an ebr, hebr, ebro word with no local etymology to explain it as a local word. Another cover up?

Yea the cover-up is found in the explanation for Zaragoza being named after some roman of note. The etymology for that is just so absolutely poor.

The Suessetani were a pre-roman people of the Iberian Peninsula that dwelt mainly in the plains area of the Alba (Arba) river basin (a northern tributary of the Ebro river), in today’s Cinco Villas, Aragon, Zaragoza Province (westernmost Aragon region) and Bardenas Reales area (southernmost Navarra region), west of the Gallicus river (today's Gállego river), east of the low course of the Aragon river and north of the Iberus (Ebro) river, in the valley plains of this same river. Their location, in relation to other tribes, was south of the Iacetani (Aquitanian tribe), west of the Vescetani or Oscenses (Iberian tribe) north of the Lusones and Pellendones (Celtiberian tribes), also north of the Sedetani (Iberian tribe), and southeast of the Vascones (Aquitanian tribe or people).[1]

Alba River Tributary of Ebro