Rendlesham Forest…, A Christmas Story from 1980 - Can We ‘Let it Be’?

originally posted by: ctj83
a reply to: mirageman

Bennewtiz / Shag Harbour / Rendlesham / Berwyn / Roswell / MJ12

I wonder how many involved faked photos and documents? Of those, I wonder how many of those forgeries had a single common source?

I knew before MJ 12 was made public that it was almost certainly a hoax. Someone tried to play me over that one.

Sadly I cannot say any more.

a reply to: Jayceedove

I have wondered if there was some vague connection with both Adamski and Godfrey to Menworth Hill listening station.

Richard D Hall has guessed at an underground military base in the area but I'm not sure I buy that.

Is there any other connection between Godfrey's encounter and Adamski's death.

Also, could you tell me what issues you recovered it, I must have missed then.

originally posted by: ctj83
a reply to: mirageman

Bennewtiz / Shag Harbour / Rendlesham / Berwyn / Roswell / MJ12

I wonder how many involved faked photos and documents? Of those, I wonder how many of those forgeries had a single common source?

There is a lot of fakery and forgery involved in the UFO topic. MJ12 is a prime example. (For those following who are unaware what MJ12 is try here : Illustrated History of MJ12. An example document is : here).

Some researchers like Stan Friedman or Ryan & Bob Wood believe there is degree of authenticity in some of the documents. Others like Grant Cameron seem to think there is some kind of 'control' group overseeing the topic like MJ12 but the documents were faked. The problem with the MJ12 documents (amongst others) is that all roads lead back to Bill Moore and Jamie Shandera. Their creation has often been attributed to AFOSI agent Richard Doty. Although he has cleverly answered questions about it by saying :





So in other words he's saying he might have created them without Bill Moore but was never found guilty of doing so. Whoever created them took some considerable time and effort for no obvious financial gain.They were 'leaked' to a number of researchers. None of who originally trusted their authenticity enough to make them public.

An old trick is to leak disinformation abroad. So I am guessing a number of other well known 'ufo writers' (including Jenny) were targeted in the US and elsewhere and eventually Timothy Good in the UK was behind an article in the Observer newspaper in 1987 about the topic.

If Doty was behind the MJ12 documents then he did it with the blessing of those higher up the chain. If he wasn't then who was?

Which is all suggestive of someone wanting the ufo community to believe in a 'UFO/Alien control group'. Would a real MJ12 type organisation do that?

Does any of that story link with Rendlesham?

I don't know.

RFI was public knowledge before MJ-12 entered the public domain. There are stories of American and British intelligence being involved in some kind of debriefing with a number of witnesses that Colonel Halt declares his ignorance about. He's even hinted about a clandestine control group.

Faked evidence is another issue entirely. The Halt memo is certainly genuine if somewhat erroneous in detail. The Halt tape; perhaps only 17 or so mins long or perhaps it has been edited down and so is economic with the truth. Penniston's notebook very dubious IMHO. As for Larry Warren's documentation. I think Sacha will be able to answer that question better than me.

a reply to: Jayceedove

The links between these cases may well have been coincidental and a mundane cause lies behind Adamski's tragic death. Though the coroner on retirement years later still called it the most puzzling case he ever dealt with.

I had a brief look at what information was out there on the Adamski case a couple of years ago : The Adamski ‘Alien Murder Mystery’ Solved: Maybe?

It was very odd how Adamski's body ended up on a heap of coal. Also access to the Coroner’s files were refused when the researchers asked Bradford Coroner’s Court because they were ‘not interested parties’. The Coroner, James Turnbull, also failed to respond to requests for more information. Although I think any link to an out of this world explanation lay with the name of the victim "Adamski". It's sad that Alan was badly treated .He always seemed fairly open minded but also took a very balanced view in what he saw that morning.

..... I have researched a few other cases in the area where similar issues have been reported and where time anomalies and various other oddities seem to have occurred. Suggesting this is a factor common to the location.

I am not saying this was the same phenomenon but, as you once lived on Merseyside, you may be familiar with the Liverpool timeslip incident on July 7th 1996. There are also a host of other ghostlike stories in the area of the bombed out church (St. Luke's).

I was working very close by at that time and don't remember anything odd at all happening on the day. It suggests to me that whatever happened occurs on an individual basis to those exposed to this strange 'phenomenon'. If there is a link to Rendlesham then this effect may explain why the witnesses stories often seem to differ.

a reply to: mirageman

That is really amazing. and they mention strong magnetic fields in the area. George Van Tassel used to speak of the same phenomenon about everything that has ever happened being imprinted in the earth's magnetic field and it can be played back by whatever can cause it to do so. Perhaps something in that area is doing so. Plenty strange.

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

According the Daily Mail ( ) the Liverpool Area is also a hotspot for UFOs. See : www.dailymail.co.uk...

a reply to: Jayceedove

Your summation on "the cover up" is exactly what I've believed for 25 years.... The only thing being covered up is a lack of knowledge and/or understanding.

originally posted by: ctj83
a reply to: Jayceedove

I have wondered if there was some vague connection with both Adamski and Godfrey to Menworth Hill listening station.

Richard D Hall has guessed at an underground military base in the area but I'm not sure I buy that.

Is there any other connection between Godfrey's encounter and Adamski's death.

Also, could you tell me what issues you recovered it, I must have missed then.

It is a little further out to Menwith - though there are interesting cases around there, too.

Godfrey was the first man on scene to the Adamski case, was in charge of investigating, found a witness who was at the coal heap AFTER the PM found that he was dead and yet the body was not there, but was never called as a witness to the inquest. Nor was that witness. A UFO was reported over Todmorden the night before the body was found.

So there are links. They are vague and coincidental and possibly accidental - as with the UFO relevance of the name Adamski given that it is very common in Poland, from where the dead man had moved to the UK 30 years earlier.

What do you mean by your last question - 'what issues you recovered it'?

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: Jayceedove


It was very odd how Adamski's body ended up on a heap of coal. Also access to the Coroner’s files were refused when the researchers asked Bradford Coroner’s Court because they were ‘not interested parties’. The Coroner, James Turnbull, also failed to respond to requests for more information. Although I think any link to an out of this world explanation lay with the name of the victim "Adamski". It's sad that Alan was badly treated .He always seemed fairly open minded but also took a very balanced view in what he saw that morning.



I am not saying this was the same phenomenon but, as you once lived on Merseyside, you may be familiar with the Liverpool timeslip incident on July 7th 1996. There are also a host of other ghostlike stories in the area of the bombed out church (St. Luke's).

I was working very close by at that time and don't remember anything odd at all happening on the day. It suggests to me that whatever happened occurs on an individual basis to those exposed to this strange 'phenomenon'. If there is a link to Rendlesham then this effect may explain why the witnesses stories often seem to differ.

I have seen files on the Adamski case. It is how I know what questions were outstanding and can ask why key witnesses were never called by the coroner. Though I am pretty sure he never knew that they existed.

The name Adamski is only one 'link'. The others are the proximity to the location of Alan Godfrey's encounter, his direct involvement in the case, the reporting of a UFO over the area the night before the body was found, that his widow stated in evidence (and Alan G concurred) that Adamski looked to have been 'frightened to death' and that despite extensive efforts - many of them made by Alan himself whilst in charge of the investigation (4 - 5 months BEFORE his own encounter bear in mind) - the location of Adamski during the missing 5 days was never found, nor was any evidence for treatment of his burn marks or their cause or the method used to treat them (an unidentified substance). Plus the fact - again verified by Alan as that was his job - that Adamski had no connection whatsoever with Todmorden and had never visited the place before his body was found there.

All of this is circumstantially interesting but does not, in my view, establish a UFO connection with the Adamski death. Even though the coroner said himself that if someone could show him that UFOs really did exist then he would regard their potential involvement in this death as being as credible as any other he considered in his several month investigation.

There are local rumours of a mundane explanation involving a family dispute and an accident that escalated out of control. But no evidence regarding this was ever collated or presented by the police and the inquest dismissed the speculation to which it did devote one session.

Chances are that there is a prosaic explanation but my guess is that we will simply never know what happened here and the case will live on like the Mary Celeste as a tale to be endlessly debated but never resolved.

You cannot entirely rule UFOs out but I have seen nothing that rules them in beyond a series of most likely coincidental links.

As for the other story - the Liverpool time slips. Yes, I came upon a few of those whilst living on Merseyside and having a weekly show on Radio City. I collected quite a few of these anecdotal tales though I never experienced anything there myself.

a reply to: Jayceedove

Sorry Jenny! Autocorrect strikes again. I really need to buy a laptop.

The sentence should have read what issues did you cover the incident in (referring to Fortean times).

a reply to: Jayceedove

Hi Jenny, I'm not sure I understand your comment about about a witness who was at the coal heap afterwards but the body was not there?

Although you will be aware, many readers might not be, but post WW2, it would not be uncommon to find people from Eastern Europe living in Yorkshire, often after being involved in the war effort.

I'm assuming Eastern Europeans many wanted to escape the Warsaw Pact...

The real coincidence was the Adamski nane

a reply to: ctj83

I believe the issue of Fortean TImes you are looking for in relation to Alan Godfrey's case is FT 325 -328. (issue from 2015 which may be available as digital versions?).

There was a cold case (or perhaps old case) investigation in 2006 made John Hanson and David Sankey. They produced a report on the Alan Godfrey case which you can all read here : www.tinyurl.com....

I am aware that we are straying off topic a little (no matter how fascinating that the Godfrey case is - it really is IMHO)

So just to keep it all on track. The Rendlesham incident occurred 6 months after the Adamski death mystery ( in June 1980 ) and a month after Alan Godfrey's strange experiences (28th November 1980). Are there any correlations we can point to or do we see both as isolated incidents?

a reply to: mirageman

I'll reach out on a limb here and be a little speculative. Please don't take all of this as hard and fast beliefs.

If we assume the following:
- That the group that created MJ12 targeted people in the US and in the UK people like Jenny Randles and Timothy Good
- That Butler didn't get a scoop from 'Steve Roberts' on Rendlesham, she was targeted

Then is it possible that:
- The Adamski death was used to draw in ufologists - purely opportunistic
- That the Godfrey incident was a bridge between the two attempts

Other correlations:
- RFI tinges of soviet satellites. I think this very unlikely, but Adamski - as a former citizen of what was then the soviet block, living in the UK, was someone putting pressure on him? He must have had family in what was then the USSR?
- Both Godfrey and RFI involve people in an official capacity seeing UAP phenomena. Although in Godfrey's it seems very much nuts and bolts
- Hypnosis. Damned hypnosis. Brought out lots of extra 'details' just like Burroughs and Penniston in RFI.
- Health implications. Infertility cured in Godfreys cases. Retina, heart, teeth damage etc in RFI

Proposals
1) That the 'PROSPERO' / Fake MJ12 group (needs a much better name) was targeting UK ufologists just as much as US ones
2) That the real corollary with PC Alan Godfrey's encounter is Betty and Barney Hill of New Hampshire. The craft is similar and fertility seems to have been a core reason for the event. Also, both Barney and Godfrey had shoe damage. Ultimately, it's not the events, but the investigator, Jenny that is the main link to RFI
3) That Jenny Randles was specifically targeted by this North Atlantic group with disinformation which she rejected.
4) The the Soviets had Jenny (sorry to talk about you in third person) under surveillance.
5) That Todmorden and the local area has a geology suited to earth lights. Rendlesham Forest is actually a relatively new and artificial forest, so any link to ancient land is actually not applicable.

Summary

Employees of Western powers were the focus of Godfrey and RFI. There are vague, tenuous links to the Soviet Union. Hypnosis probably did more damage in both Godrefy and RFI.

a reply to: ctj83

That's one hell of a theory!

In a nutshell Cold Ware shenanigans are to blame.

a reply to: mirageman

I'm not sure I believe it myself! I think there is the beginnings of something there. I also believe hypnosis is major cause of problems...

a reply to: ctj83

It is no coincidence that once the Cold War ended that there have been very few 'classic' UFO cases. All those contact stories, abduction stories and close encounters seemed to be confined to history. At a certain point while studying UFO stories you realize that the fingers of the intelligence communities are always poking about in the topic as well. They don't seem to hunt for bigfoot or ghosts so there must be something to UFOs that interests them!

a reply to: mirageman

I guess the question is why go to all that effort?

Some say to distract from black projects but I've always felt that these disinformation campaigns would draw attention to what they are trying to hide. Far better to suppress?

Some say creating a lie based partly on truth is the best way to hide the truth. I can believe that a little more?

We live in a world where many conspiracy stories originated with the KGB.

Why didn't they expose any hidden truth, or the US expose what was behind USSR UAPs? That makes little sense to me. Even if the USSR didn't know what the USA was up, it seems to fit their form if they made something up.

Apart from a terrible documentary with Roger Moore, I can't find any evidence of this Cold War underminingZ

a reply to: ctj83

I would also like to add that sometimes I think certain stories are using some sort of 'code' with an underlying meaning. This was briefly touched in Mirage Men (cf. Three Bears).

For some reason sometimes I think the term 'aliens' in intelligence was used for the German scientists around Operation Paperclip resulting, via many different interpretations of the wording, in the current UFO lore.

Language and wording have many layers, so maybe there is some info hidden between the lines. Would complicate things even more wouldn't it?

a reply to: zeroPointOneQ

That's very very insightful and makes so much sense. It fits in with a lot I've found in the periphery that didn't really fit into anything.

Quick question - can anyone confirm if Bill Moore is fluent in Russian?

originally posted by: ctj83
a reply to: Jayceedove

Hi Jenny, I'm not sure I understand your comment about about a witness who was at the coal heap afterwards but the body was not there?

Although you will be aware, many readers might not be, but post WW2, it would not be uncommon to find people from Eastern Europe living in Yorkshire, often after being involved in the war effort.

I'm assuming Eastern Europeans many wanted to escape the Warsaw Pact...

The real coincidence was the Adamski nane

Sorry, not much time to answer at present. But briefly.

Both Zigmund and Lottie - the woman he married - moved from Poland for various reasons - including those you note - about 30 years before this incident and there is a high Polish population in the UK to this day. And there was one locally near where he lived 25 miles from Todmorden because of all the coal fields there. Poland had similar mines so they had experienced workers who moved to Yorkshire for this factor.

Several of those interviewed by Alan during his police investigation of the death and who gave evidence at the inquest were also Polish.

Adamski is a common Polish surname - a bit like Adams, say, in the UK. So in UFO terms the name seems odd, but the inquest never considered that and Alan Godfrey had no idea it was relevant at all because he had not got the UFO familiarity that we do.

The importance of the witness that Alan Godfrey found during his follow up but who was never called to the inquest is considerable.

The fairly precise time of death was agreed at the post mortem on the night the body was found. That document gives a very narrow window for when Adamski died.

The inquest was told that the coal yard was visited in the morning by the owner's son and the body was not there. But it was found there and Alan Godfrey called out in mid/late afternoon.

The time of death came in a window inbetween these times. So it was not possible to conclude if Adamski climbed up there himself and died only that he was not there when he was alive and was there just after we know he had recently died.

Alan found a significant witness who went to the coal yard looking for the owner's son on business but did not find him there but did see there was no body on the coal heap during that visit.

That time was after the one which the PM found that Adamski was already dead.

Hence we know with near certainty he did not climb onto the coal heap himself whilst alive but was dropped there after death somehow.

That eliminates many options and would have been critical for the inquest deliberations. As in the very least it proves the involvement of other parties in the deposition of the body.

So the fact this witness was never called there and neither was Alan Godfrey is very puzzling.