A Question to the Scot's Here on ATS? ....

Bassago

As far as their independence all I'm saying is the people should get to vote on it whenever they want. I hope they chose the path to independence, lord knows it's been a long time since they were. Freedom and total self determination is always the best ultimate choice IMO.

They wont get freedom though.

There only viable choice is to join the EU and then become slaves to Germany.

Scotland would sink otherwise.

reply to post by crazyewok


That is a fallacy...the Uk (Cameron) is at this moment in time debating whether to leave the EU.... The no vote use many unfounded statements to sway the crowd...

Scotland more than pays her way in the UK. We get 9.3% of UK spending, but contribute 9.6% of UK taxes. We are in a stronger financial position than the rest of the UK, to the tune of £510 per person last year - that’s over £1000 for each Scottish household. As an independent country, this money wouldstay in Scotland.

Scotland also already pays for all the government services we need as an independent country - we don’t
have to start from scratch. However, the money will be spent in Scotland, rather than London, creating
thousands of Scottish jobs. I think England will miss Scotland more than Vice-versa..

alldaylong

TechniXcality

alldaylong

TechniXcality

alldaylong

TechniXcality
reply to post by alldaylong

 

are seriously debating if conquest was ever sought in Scotland by the British? Sure eventually the people succumbed and joined the union, so i suppose America never conquered Iraq? Apples and oranges but the occupation led to a mock government put in place.

wikipedia en.wikipedia.org...

Do you actually know why Scotland "Joined" the union?

As a country it was financially bankrupt. It's only salvation was to join the Union.

www.theguardian.com...

yes i'm aware... Years of conquest and war inter turmoil tend to have those financial consequences at least for the underdog. Its only salvation ha, that's a good one

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story

That's a double edge sword you just wrote. Its an easy and quiet convenient perspective to give hats off and pats on the back to the victories and spoils of your descendants. Its a much harder and damn right proud to acknowledge your failures and to become independent, which i'm sure Scotland would fare just well. Remember when a story is told, you must consider the person telling that story.

Can you give an answer to this question.

Would you support an Independent Native American Country within the US?

Or more importantly why are in happy living on occupied land that was taken by either force or corruption from the Native Americans?

Absolutely yes! and its an atrocity and damn near hell sentence if there is such a place, too those who committed such acts. I'm not happy i love their culture i have many family who intermarried. There is not excuse for such documents, and mentality as manifest destiny. Sadly its the way of the world,independence is an idea and its seed is in all people.

Can someone explain what the upside is to seceding from the UK?

TechniXcality

alldaylong

TechniXcality

alldaylong

TechniXcality

alldaylong

TechniXcality
reply to post by alldaylong

 

are seriously debating if conquest was ever sought in Scotland by the British? Sure eventually the people succumbed and joined the union, so i suppose America never conquered Iraq? Apples and oranges but the occupation led to a mock government put in place.

wikipedia en.wikipedia.org...

Do you actually know why Scotland "Joined" the union?

As a country it was financially bankrupt. It's only salvation was to join the Union.

www.theguardian.com...

yes i'm aware... Years of conquest and war inter turmoil tend to have those financial consequences at least for the underdog. Its only salvation ha, that's a good one

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story

That's a double edge sword you just wrote. Its an easy and quiet convenient perspective to give hats off and pats on the back to the victories and spoils of your descendants. Its a much harder and damn right proud to acknowledge your failures and to become independent, which i'm sure Scotland would fare just well. Remember when a story is told, you must consider the person telling that story.

Can you give an answer to this question.

Would you support an Independent Native American Country within the US?

Or more importantly why are in happy living on occupied land that was taken by either force or corruption from the Native Americans?

Absolutely yes! and its an atrocity and damn near hell sentence if there is such a place, too those who committed such acts. I'm not happy i love their culture i have many family who intermarried. There is not excuse for such documents, and mentality as manifest destiny. Sadly its the way of the world,independence is an idea and its seed is in all people.

I admire you for replying with a fair and honest answer.
However for those Americans and Canadians who shout "Independence for Scotland" I say.....you need to look nearer home and sort your own issues out regarding Native American Indians before pontificating in other nations issues.

reply to post by captiva




That was an interesting turn of phrase >>>>


"With thousands of members here in Scotland and with the fact that they have been

ordered by their hierarchy to vote no"



Doesn't hold much store regarding FREEDOM which it what it is all supposed to

be about! ... A free vote??

reply to post by intrepid


Nationalism , and Alex Salmond getting immortality as the founder of a free Scotland .

reply to post by Bassago


Do you view a native of someone say Alberta, Georgia any way more or less free than someone from New York State?
Would you deny Georgia the Right To Self-Determination and to secede from The Union?

Scotland is exercising its Right To Self-Determination.
Your country fought a Civil War to prevent States being allowed to do so.

Of course there are differences, but there are also striking similarities.

And it's ridiculous to suggest that Scotland and it's people were scared to express their wish for independence due to events in America, India or anywhere else.

reply to post by alldaylong


thank you for your kind words and i really appreciate the debate. But for me the issue has always will be freedom is not gained through the oppression of others but instead the acknowledgement and support of ones own sovereignty. The freedom to fail and succeed, by my own merit.

reply to post by eletheia


It doesn't matter which way we vote, we will still get a corrupt Government either way. Just more division and trouble.

reply to post by TechniXcality

.....freedom is not gained through the oppression of others ....

Exactly how is Scotland and the Scots oppressed?

Freeborn
reply to post by TechniXcality

 

.....freedom is not gained through the oppression of others ....

Exactly how is Scotland and the Scots oppressed?

(context of who i was replying to alldaylong asked me how i felt about Indians i was further elaborating). Today they are not, but they have been. Independence is something a fraction want, i say then let them have it by majority rule. That is all, i believe in such things.

Doesn't matter how nationalistic you are or how fervently you believe in independence, or how cleverly you point out Americans living on so-called "Native" American land, you need to convince your fellow citizens, and thus far you have not. Polls are subject to variation and, of course, you can attack the messenger by attacking the polls, but basically here's the bottom line:

Right now, today, 60% of your fellow citizens would vote NO.

Ironically, the people most favorable to Scottish independence as a group are those detested Americans, who don't count. Least you could do is treat them neutrally. Attacking your supporters is not a good way to win. The hypocrisy is too obvious and it's a waste of your limited resources. You've only got so much energy to expend. If you can't convince your own Mum, who is left to blame? I know: Bush did it.

intrepid
Can someone explain what the upside is to seceding from the UK?

Still haven't gotten a decent answer to this. It really seems like an important question.

reply to post by TechniXcality


Scotland has been no more oppressed than many other areas of the UK, including many in England and they have far more say now on Scottish matters than the vast majority of English people do on English matters.

I think most of us support Scotland's Right To Self-Determination which is why they are having a referendum, pretty straight forward.
Regardless of how Scotland votes I just hope it's based on facts and issues that are relevant today and for the future and not on some misguided, mis-informed romanticised notion of 'Freeeedom' etc.

As I said earlier, I wonder what the reaction would be if England exercised it's Right To Self-Determination and voted to dissolve The Union entirely regardless of the wishes of the other constituent parts of the UK and become a completely independent country - I somehow doubt that would be viewed quite as positively as Scottish / Welsh or Irish independence.

reply to post by eletheia


I think Scotland should leave the union.

We have been on this island as Britons for 12000 years plus .. Scotland and England have only been around for about ? 2000 [ correct me if I am wrong someone] ?

We have been joined by an act of union for 300 years - a relatively short time.

If Scotland wants to be independent - I do not see it as a bad thing.

The one thing I do not understand is - they will not be an independent country anyway - they will secede from the Union with the rest of Britain and remain a client state of the EU.

Makes no sense to me..

Plus the United States and its union is nothing like the union / formation of the 4 British countries.

reply to post by TechniXcality


As "Freeborn" has said several times in the thread >>>"exactly how has Scotland

and the Scot's been oppressed"


The four parts of the United Kingdom individually are very small so there's a lot

to be said for 'United we stand and divided we fall'


Something else that has occurred to me - Would there be border control

and how would that work?

reply to post by eletheia


The thing is, the vast majority of Scots know themselves that they are no more oppressed than anyone else, and it's an insult to infer that they are - it seems to be something that those who cling on to some remote Celtic ancestry whilst being thousands of miles away from the reality, either way, of the result of this referendum.

This referendum should have nothing to do with alleged oppression or perceived lack of freedom etc but simply what is best - financially / culturally etc - for Scotland today and in the future - everything else is smoke in mirrors.

captiva
What other country in the world wants to be ruled from another country....I hope and prey that when the time comes the yes vote will win.

Respects

edit on 25-11-2013 by captiva because: (no reason given)

What are you on about ?
You are still going to be ruled from Brussels like you are today ,,, so independence is an illusion if you stay in the EU.
You will not even have a central bank.
Plus Scotland has ruled England for the past 15 years ... and they have done a bloody good job of destroying our country too ...

reply to post by intrepid

Still haven't gotten a decent answer to this. It really seems like an important question.

To be fair, there are some Scottish ATS members who can give reasoned and considered explanations why they believe Scotland will be better if it votes for independence, (there are also some who can give equally well reasoned arguments why they believe it shouldn't).

Perhaps they'll be along shortly, (I'd say as soon as the pubs shut but I guess there'd be some who would find the tongue-in-check stereotyping slightly offensive even though most Scots would recognise it as the harmless bit of craic it would be intended to be).