Pope Francis - Do not be fooled by false messiahs

reply to post by FlyersFan


The thing about the Pope is this - No, he is not supposed to be worshipped, and neither are any of the Saints.

However, what is in people's faces when they see the Pope is often akin to worship. When you are set up as God's direct representative and mouthpiece on Earth, it is a fine line that is walked between someone who is human and someone who is one step below God, himself, and one step above the rest of us. There are plenty who will not keep this in its proper perspective.

However, I will also say that there quite a few who will insist on putting their favorite sports teams on a pedestal they should not be on, too. We very often venerate exactly that which we should not with the devotion only God should command.

If there is criticism to be placed in the Church at this point, I would say it's in a system that does no actively discourage such veneration even though they should know it's a violation of not having graven images.

reply to post by WarminIndy


Maybe he's talking about Christian Identity, and those folks are the first cousins to the Aryan Nations and are about as Christian as Westboro.

reply to post by ketsuko


And, there are those who let their kids plaster their "walls" with pics of Justin Bieber or Lady Gaga, or whoever happens to be the pre-teen/teenage fancy. Idolatry is everywhere, it start early!

windword
reply to post by ketsuko

 

And, there are those who let their kids plaster their "walls" with pics of Justin Bieber or Lady Gaga, or whoever happens to be the pre-teen/teenage fancy. Idolatry is everywhere, it starts early!

Yes it's very sad and that's precisely the kind of thing that Pope Francis was addressing, but it was more as I am convinced that he was speaking through that to the nature of the wickedness of the system itself by which these idols are trying to steal the youth. He was speaking to what's in back of it, imho.



Lady Gaga dedicated this um whatever you want to call it "I'm a drone", in her words - "to young people".

It didn't make any sense then, and it still doesn't, now.

It tips their hand however, as do most of the videos and consumer schlop peddled by what can only be called a satanic world system.

Well the gig is up and the nature of their game can be plainly seen for what it is, so I for one applaud the Pope for speaking to it.

adjensen
reply to post by Char-Lee

 

Maybe you cannot see it but these are idols that is just all there is to it no matter what doctrine says.

Until you can prove that Roman Catholics think that the Pope's ring is a god, and worship it as such, your quote is barking up the wrong tree -- Eusebius was talking about idols which were representative of pagan gods.

Once again, I have given you proof of the actual church teaching that says we worship God, and God alone, all you've managed to show is that you don't care what the church teaches, because you have it in your head that "respect and affection" are the same as "worship", which anyone can tell you, they are not. You accuse your friend in South America of worshiping the Pope, I guarantee you that if you bothered to ask her if she did, she would say "absolutely not."

I think they missed the whole section in history class (maybe their school didn't teach it) about the Iconoclast War. There was actual fighting over icons and iconography.

But mainline Protestants also have idols. They just don't realize it, but I have seen those little statues of Michael the Archangel that some Protestants have. But I have seen Catholics wear St. Christopher medals.

I'm not going to put Catholics down, if one Catholic believes that praying to a statue and lighting candles gets them closer to God, then that's their faith. But I would assume that if a Catholic person were somewhere that no statues were at, they would still be compelled to pray in faith to God.

I think the idol worship is more than just statues. Look at how people cheer if their favorite actor were to receive the Oscar or Emmy. That's Hollywood's idol worship. And people worship actors all the time. How many people collect items of their favorite celebrity, and there is a Church of Elvis. I think that it's not the Pope's ring that has any connection to God, but isn't kissing the ring an old Italian tradition? Long before Catholicism, people in Rome kissed Caesar's ring as a sign of loyalty and fielty. But how many people on here, having love for a relative that has died, keep some object as a reminder?

How many people hang pictures of dead relatives? They believe they will one day be with that person again. And how many people on here go to graveyards and actually talk to the headstone of their loved one? So why put Catholics down, when it is something that gives them hope?

reply to post by WarminIndy

So why put Catholics down, when it is something that gives them hope?

That's kind of the thing, whether it's that instance or not.

A follower of Christ is one who does good in the world, regardless of how that reflects back to him. We count on the mercy of God to save us, regardless of who we are, or what we believe.

Any "Christian" who thinks that putting other believers down for some vague point of doctrine is relevant...

Is no Christian.

reply to post by adjensen

Is no Christian.

or is human just like you.

undo
reply to post by adjensen

 

Is no Christian.

or is human just like you.

Undo

Are you American? I ask this for a reason.

We can sit and argue all day long about religion and different doctrines and tenets and creeds, but at the end of the day, we have to respect their right to freedom of religious expression. We don't have to agree with it, but at the end of the day we have to accept they have their right as well as everyone else.

It's another thing if a religion were actually doing harm. But then we have to look at the individuals who are doing this. Already, Westboro Baptists are associated with Christianity that people think all Christians are Westboro Baptist. But not all Christians are. But at the end of the day, even Westboro Baptists have the right to protest everything, because they have freedom of speech.

And what harm is it causing us if some elderly grandmother were to kiss the pope's ring? That's her faith, let her have her faith. If a Catholic person believes that they should light candles in prayer, then how is that harming us?

If you want to talk about symbolism and icons and idols, how about we talk about Voodoo practitioners and how they cut chicken's necks and dance in a possessed trance around it? Let's talk about Voodoo faith for a while and see if you have any issues with the chickens.

warminindy

oh i am american and i also have this rant about catholicism but not the catholic people, themselves. rather the leaders over the millenia have made some startlingly bad choices, and of course, that indicates that yes, they are people too.

my actual gripe is how as a christian, i am blamed for the crusades and the inquisition and the council decisions to include the old testament in the bible. like, if you read the OT, that guy does not resemble jesus in any way shape or form, most of the time. hehe. jesus is so dang nice, so ahead of his time, so ground breaking, that even the pagans were astonished. and they thought they were all hip and modern at the time. he made nearly every paradigm on the planet, pale by comparison, for the sheer amount of humanitarian love in his teachings and concern for women and children. the dude was freakin' awesome.

ketsuko
However, what is in people's faces when they see the Pope is often akin to worship.

The pope is Peter to Catholics. He stands in the shoes of the fisherman. It's an unbroken line to
Jesus. What you see is people being excited because of that unbroken line back to Jesus.
It's not 'worship of the pope' at all. As I said, the catechism is very clear, worship belongs to
God alone.

Fundamentalist protestants and uber-whackos like Jack Chick like to say Catholics worship
the pope. But that's simply not true.

reply to post by FlyersFan


i'm a fundie protestant but i don't think you worship the pope but you are using him like mud and spit or a garment hem, and you don't need to. just ask the roman soldier hehe

adjensen
reply to post by Caver78

 

She said this:

herself and her family knelt down, they cried, they prayed. Why were the people kneeling to this man? Even angels in many scriptures said do not kneel down to me but only god.

and then followed that with the scripture, which says that the angel said not to worship them, but only worship God, implying that these people who knelt when meeting the Pope were worshiping him, along with whatever the ring business was supposed to signify.

If that wasn't the point she was making, then she was making no point at all.

Catholics do not worship the Pope and they do not worship Mary, two absolute untruths that some misguided and misinformed Protestants claim.

Then I have a question. If Jesus taught how to pray... Our father in heaven...... why do Catholics pray to Mary, to the saints and to the angels? This is a form of worship. If I ask Mary, an angel etc... to protect my family etc.... this is a form of worship and not to God but to the individual I am praying to.

Also have you been in a Catholic church? In Europe they have sculptures of baby angels with wings, Mary, and other saints hanging off the walls and paintings. Doesn't the Old testament talk about no idols from heaven or earth?

Catholics do worship Mary and other idols.

Any attempt to convince someone that Catholics do not worship the Pope, Mary and other idols but have them all over the inside their church and inside the Vatican is an open lie. Catholic dogma states they don't worship these things but still they pray to them.....this is worship.

Your neighborly protestant.

Fraudfinder
why do Catholics pray to Mary, to the saints and to the angels? This is a form of worship.

Talking to the saints via prayer is NOT the same as worshipping them. Asking those saints to intercede to God, who they live with in heaven, is very different than worship. It's acknowledging God is in charge and it's asking those who live with Him in heaven to talk to Him for you. That's two different things.

In Europe they have sculptures of baby angels with wings, Mary, and other saints hanging off the walls and paintings. Doesn't the Old testament talk about no idols from heaven or earth?

Do you have pictures of your mother, father, sisters, brothers, friends? Do you worship those pictures? It's the same in a Catholic church. People TALK TO Mary and the saints because they are in heaven. Catholics ask them to intercede with God for them. It's no different than you asking your mother or father or cousin to pray for you to God.

Catholics do worship Mary and other idols.

Nope. Not at all.
Catholics would have to be saying that Mary and the statues were God ... and they do not.

reply to post by LittleByLittle


With the blending of many new age thought you could have a good point with the kundalini awakaning. I was not aware of what you were talking about so I did a quick wiki search .At this time I look at the 144000 as being Gods witnesses in end times .I guess you have to think of them as being part of Israel but at the same time they may be representing the heavenly Church .

I recently went through a search looking for ,what, I do not know and came across a series of videos detailing with math and numbers both the pyramids and the bible .Its a very long series but found it fascinating ... You may find your answer within it or even better you may find a question you never though about .....This video is an Introduction to the 30 Video Special Present by the Tribulation Network on the Purposes of God. www.the-tribulation-network.com...

A lot of it is repetitious and can be dry but I found a few nice pearls to wonder about . The Renaissance search for both the Prisca Sapientia (perfect knowledge) and Prisca Theologia (perfect theology) and the quest by Sir Isaac Newton for both and how it impacted upon his world views of science and religion…various texts written by Newton are discussed relative to his search for these supremely sublime plateaus of human and divine cooperation.

Introduces the measurement of the Sacred Cubit of 25.20” from the story of King Belshazzar’s downfall – the ascendency of the Persians and the peculiar “handwriting on the wall” which in monetary weight came to 2520. Explains how the days of a week and the degrees in a circle – the rotation of the earth for one day – interact with 2520, solar years, and the fall of Jerusalem and its inter-relationship to that of the fall of Babylon. How the number “7” interacts with the date of Babylon’s downfall in 530 BC. The numbers “49” – “2520” – “360” and “7” are given prophetic import.
Washington D.C. and the Statute of Liberty – their uncanny relationship to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem in Nautical and Statute Miles. Plato’s 5040 and Magnesia. Diameters of earth and moon and their relationship to the Sacred Cubit. These calculations in miles and their relationships to minutes in a week are unbelievable – this cannot be coincidence. Likewise the radii of earth and moon – astonishing confirmations of the Divine Geometer are on display. Eratosthenes and the Sun and Moon and PI – manifests the prisca sapentia at 252,000 statute miles from the Earth. The calculations of the Hebrew “Sepher Yetzirah” confirm the Sacred Cubit and Plato’s 5040.

This link is to vid# 25 and may hold a starting point to start .....www.the-tribulation-network.com...
Ezekiel’s Temple has comparative measurements not only to the New Jerusalem of Revelation but to the Great Pyramid of Giza – these measurements are so overwhelmingly convincing that the Divine Designer’s intentions are altogether singular in their purpose. The six gates and the 120 cubit porch reverberate the measurements of the 12 Patriarchs and the 12 Apostles – and do so repeatedly. The “One New Man” of Ezekiel’s Temple illustrates that the Temple is naught but the design of the Almighty whereby He desires to “tabernacle among us.” The porch of both Solomon’s Temple and that of Ezekiel are the same in measurement – 120 cubits – and reflects generous spiritual implications which are compared to the perimeter in feet of the Great Pyramid of Giza and, ultimately, the measurement of the Sacred Cubit’s 25.20” itself. Likewise, the outer dimensions of Ezekiel’s Temple trigger prophetic confirmations which are incredibly aggressive in their perfect measurements and design. Reflections of Solomon’s Temple are seen throughout those of Ezekiel, and, consequently, the measurements of the New Jerusalem and the Great Pyramid of Giza – all are inter-related in perfect symmetry. The “square footage” (using the Sacred Cubit 25.20”) provides reflection of the New Jerusalem in the “foursquare” courtyard of Ezekiel’s Temple. The Outer and Inner Court Measurements of Ezekiel’s Temple and their reflection in the New Jerusalem confound – there are simply stunning.

peace

reply to post by the2ofusr1


oh that is very interesting!

i also noted while watching a 3d model reprsentation of the temple of solomon, that it looked like a very clever abstraction of the sphinx of giza. the more i thought about it, and the placement of the doors on the temple, the more possible it seemed.
here's the video

FlyersFan

Fraudfinder
why do Catholics pray to Mary, to the saints and to the angels? This is a form of worship.

Talking to the saints via prayer is NOT the same as worshipping them. Asking those saints to intercede to God, who they live with in heaven, is very different than worship. It's acknowledging God is in charge and it's asking those who live with Him in heaven to talk to Him for you. That's two different things.

In Europe they have sculptures of baby angels with wings, Mary, and other saints hanging off the walls and paintings. Doesn't the Old testament talk about no idols from heaven or earth?

Do you have pictures of your mother, father, sisters, brothers, friends? Do you worship those pictures? It's the same in a Catholic church. People TALK TO Mary and the saints because they are in heaven. Catholics ask them to intercede with God for them. It's no different than you asking your mother or father or cousin to pray for you to God.

Catholics do worship Mary and other idols.

Nope. Not at all.
Catholics would have to be saying that Mary and the statues were God ... and they do not.

edit on 11/19/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

This is ridiculous!

Your poor attempt to explain how or how not to worship is false. Talking to God in prayer is worship and talking to the saints, Mary or the angles is also a form of worship. You have twisted the true meaning of worship.

Prayer is a part of worship. Do you deny this?

Jesus did NOT say Oh Mary in heaven..... or Oh Gabriel in heaven, did he?

Do I worship my family? LOL I do not worship my family and I do not ask anyone in heaven for assistance other than God in behalf of Jesus. Any other way is false worship.

Praying to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (all being ONE) is the only way of pure worship. Anything else is false worship.

I ask God to send angels for protection, I do NOT ask an angel or Mary. I sometimes ask God for specific angels of course in the name of Jesus. I ask God for blessings and NOT an angel or Mary and all is asked in the name of Jesus and no one else. If you want your prayers answered this is the way.

You can put your spin on it all you want.

FlyersFan

Fraudfinder
why do Catholics pray to Mary, to the saints and to the angels? This is a form of worship.

Talking to the saints via prayer is NOT the same as worshipping them. Asking those saints to intercede to God, who they live with in heaven, is very different than worship. It's acknowledging God is in charge and it's asking those who live with Him in heaven to talk to Him for you. That's two different things.

In Europe they have sculptures of baby angels with wings, Mary, and other saints hanging off the walls and paintings. Doesn't the Old testament talk about no idols from heaven or earth?

Do you have pictures of your mother, father, sisters, brothers, friends? Do you worship those pictures? It's the same in a Catholic church. People TALK TO Mary and the saints because they are in heaven. Catholics ask them to intercede with God for them. It's no different than you asking your mother or father or cousin to pray for you to God.

Catholics do worship Mary and other idols.

Nope. Not at all.
Catholics would have to be saying that Mary and the statues were God ... and they do not.

edit on 11/19/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

The intercede person in heaven is ONLY one person - Jesus

undo
warminindy

oh i am american and i also have this rant about catholicism but not the catholic people, themselves. rather the leaders over the millenia have made some startlingly bad choices, and of course, that indicates that yes, they are people too.

my actual gripe is how as a christian, i am blamed for the crusades and the inquisition and the council decisions to include the old testament in the bible. like, if you read the OT, that guy does not resemble jesus in any way shape or form, most of the time. hehe. jesus is so dang nice, so ahead of his time, so ground breaking, that even the pagans were astonished. and they thought they were all hip and modern at the time. he made nearly every paradigm on the planet, pale by comparison, for the sheer amount of humanitarian love in his teachings and concern for women and children. the dude was freakin' awesome.

edit on 19-11-2013 by undo because: (no reason given)

That's the point, when you rant on Catholicism, Catholics will take it personal, as everyone would. What you should rather do is specify which particular parts you have problems with and address those. To make a blanket accusation against all Catholics is wrong. And I suppose you don't like the blanket of accusation dropped against all Christianity either.

Remember the movie and the book The Da Vinci Code how Dan Brown accused the Opus Dei as a death-administering cult within Catholicism, and the Opus Dei are nothing like that. But then conspiracy theorists ran rampant against them. Is it possible that ONE Catholic person might have such an extreme punishment of flagellation? Yes, they do that in the Philippines as well. But it's not generally regarded as even a Catholic doctrine.

I think there were some groups of people who did this historically, but self-flagellation can't be considered any different than people who are cutters. But the belief in the conspiracy theory about the Opus Dei was based in Dan Brown grabbing at a group to make it seem all of Catholicism was involved in the huge conspiracy. And the same thing is being done to the Jews.

I'm not worried that a worldwide conspiracy is being preached in every Knights of Columbus meeting. It isn't happening. But I think you weren't aware that these accusations of conspiracies have been out there for a long time, and it evolves every year with embellishment. But until the 1960s, when John Kennedy became president, Catholics were mistrusted, even in the United States. It was part of pop culture attitudes. Regardless of how one thinks about John F. Kennedy, he was the first and only Catholic president. So people say what they want about the man, but they tend to forget he was Catholic, and if you have problems with Catholicism, to make blanket accusations, then in essence, John F. Kennedy would have been a bad guy too, because he was Catholic.

But how many conspiracy theorists are ready to jump on his faith? People still venerate him in conspiracy theorist circles. The man was a man, but people look past his faith, while still railing against Catholics.

Fraudfinder

FlyersFan

Fraudfinder
why do Catholics pray to Mary, to the saints and to the angels? This is a form of worship.

Talking to the saints via prayer is NOT the same as worshipping them. Asking those saints to intercede to God, who they live with in heaven, is very different than worship. It's acknowledging God is in charge and it's asking those who live with Him in heaven to talk to Him for you. That's two different things.

In Europe they have sculptures of baby angels with wings, Mary, and other saints hanging off the walls and paintings. Doesn't the Old testament talk about no idols from heaven or earth?

Do you have pictures of your mother, father, sisters, brothers, friends? Do you worship those pictures? It's the same in a Catholic church. People TALK TO Mary and the saints because they are in heaven. Catholics ask them to intercede with God for them. It's no different than you asking your mother or father or cousin to pray for you to God.

Catholics do worship Mary and other idols.

Nope. Not at all.
Catholics would have to be saying that Mary and the statues were God ... and they do not.

edit on 11/19/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

The intercede person in heaven is ONLY one person - Jesus

edit on 19-11-2013 by Fraudfinder because: (no reason given)

That would be intercessor.

But let me tell you a story, I once went to visit a Pentecostal church. I grew up around that, so I know what it is. But in this church service, a man got up to preach, not about God, but the pastor, and everyone in the church began shouting and worshiping this man. I just sat there stunned that they were actually praising this man in such a manner. So you can't say it is just Catholics doing this.

Avril Lavign began as choir girl in a church. Jessica Simpson testified that she received a revelation, DURING WORSHIP, that she was called to be a great rock star. How many young kids do you see on The Voice and American Idol who say "I came from a Gospel background, but want to do something more"? How many of these kids throw Christianity under the bus for fame and glory?

And how many of their parents and churches allow this happen? Matthew Schuler, in the current top ten on The Voice said on camera that he wanted more than Gospel. Ceelo Green told one contestant "my parents were ministers, but I'm a sinner".

And The Killer himself, Mr. Jerry Lee Lewis said "Is the glory of the talent for God, or for the talented" Yes, young Christian kids of all denominations are throwing Christianity under the bus to have fame, glory and to be worshiped.

Do you listen to Elvis? Another one who received great fame and worship, but just a man who met his death. And he could not reconcile his faith with his lifestyle. He may have sung some very wonderful Gospel songs, but was a womanizing, drug addicted, bloated blob of flesh when he died. What good did the world's adoration, prayer and worship do for his end?

Don't pick on Catholics for the pope if you ever listen to Elvis Presley. He was a god to people, and there are those who believe he is immortal. Have you ever been to Graceland? I have, I went through Memphis several times and thought that while I was there, I might go see this icon of American entertainment. Did you know how many people around the world have come there to give messages to "The King of Rock and Roll" on the walls of Graceland?

But did you know, that at the Tennessee Welcome Center, across the Mississippi River from Arkansas, at the foot of Beale Street are two statues in that building, one of B.B. King and one of Elvis Presley? So tell us again about how Catholics are wrong. When it comes to rock and pop culture, Christianity is thrown under the bus.

reply to post by WarminIndy


oh it isn't a rant against catholic people. i don't think there's a catholic person alive who would agree with the inquistion or the torture devices used on people, including shoving stakes up women's vaginas as a means of ridding them of their evil. some of the devices used, look like something out of the mind of a psychopathic murderer in the same vein as hannibal lecter, but worse. jesus said if the person won't accept the gospel, brush the dust off your feet and move on. nothing in the text says they should torture people to death and call it christianity. and i think that's pretty much common sense.

that's the kind of stuff christians today, get blamed for. i'm like i don't even see a place in the text where that kind of behavior was sanctioned by jesus, so i dunno why i'm getting blamed for it. i also was not fond of atheists quoting papal interpretations of the texts from 500 or more years ago, as evidence that christianity is nonsense. am example being the flood of noah, which was a real flood but was not global. (there's 2 floods in the text there, weaved together. but that's a different subject). Luther took some of the original papal interpretations into protestantism and as a result, there are people today who still think the first female was eve and the flood that required only 7 clean animals in pairs, 7 birds in pairs, and 2 unclean animals in pairs, is equivalent to 2 of every animal on the planet.