Pope Francis - Do not be fooled by false messiahs

reply to post by Fraudfinder

You stated your wife does not talk with you aurally so how does she communicate with you?

Since she died, I have had a number of personal experiences that have made it clear that she is still with me, in some measure. I believe that these "personal miracles" have come through God's blessing, but they are indicative of the fact that she is okay, something "evil spirits" would have no interest in bestowing on me.

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.

I'm not sure that this means what you think it does, because the Jews had a much different view of the afterlife than Christians do, but, even so, I will take the word of the New Testament, as I quoted earlier, over the Old Testament, and Revelation clearly states that those in Heaven are aware of the events on Earth.

FlyersFan

Fraudfinder
Let me get this right, you talk to your dead wife? Does she answer you? I am sorry to inform you but the dead can NOT talk to the living. You are talking to a spirit that is not your wife.

That's YOUR belief that the dead aren't aware of what is going on. And that's YOUR belief that she can't hear her husband when he speaks to her in heaven from Earth. Well .. (to use your words) ... I am sorry to inform you but you have no clue as to if the dead can hear the living or not. You'll find out when you are dead. And in the mean time, it hurts nothing for this man to speak to his wife who has gone on to heaven. (and yes .. I do believe she probably hears him just fine)

no one other than Jesus can intercede to God for you. The bible is very clear on this point.

- Catholics believe that ANYONE can pray for ANYONE else. Do you ask people to pray for you? If so, then you are doing exactly what Catholics do. They ask Mary and the people in Heaven to pray to God for them.

- As for your comment about the bible being clear ... the bible tells people to pray for each other. So Catholics asking Mary or St. Peter or whoever in heaven to pray for them to God isn't against scripture.

- AND ... your comment 'the bible is very clear on this point' ... my note to that is ... the bible doesn't contain all truth. Even the bible says it doesn't contain all truth. It doesnt' contain all that Jesus taught. 'All the books in the world' couldn't hold what Jesus taught. And Jesus said that He had much more truth to teach but that the people weren't ready for it yet.

So when I see things from Christians saying 'but the bible says this .... ' ... I find myself saying .. 'so what?'

From the last sentence in your post you make it clear that you are not Christian.

You want to argue not debate.

Find someone else to argue with.

ADDED LATER: I did die on 4 July 2013 and I came back. I never wanted to bring this subject up because it is personal but I will think about it and maybe it is time to make a thread about this......maybe

reply to post by Fraudfinder

God does listen to prayers of righteous people who are alive.

But you seem to be saying that God does not listen to the prayers of righteous people when they are in his presence.

Again, I do not pray to Mary, or talk to my wife, for that matter, because I want them to do anything for me, apart from pray for me, and there is nothing in scripture that says a) that can't happen and b) doing so is sinful or wrong.

adjensen
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

You stated your wife does not talk with you aurally so how does she communicate with you?

Since she died, I have had a number of personal experiences that have made it clear that she is still with me, in some measure. I believe that these "personal miracles" have come through God's blessing, but they are indicative of the fact that she is okay, something "evil spirits" would have no interest in bestowing on me.

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.

I'm not sure that this means what you think it does, because the Jews had a much different view of the afterlife than Christians do, but, even so, I will take the word of the New Testament, as I quoted earlier, over the Old Testament, and Revelation clearly states that those in Heaven are aware of the events on Earth.

The reason I ask is because there are Christians who hear a voice from the dead that is a family member or friend and it is not them but an evil spirit. They hear this voice either inside their head or audible.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Is adjensen a man or a woman? in either way, the dead spouse of adjensen is well aware of where they are.

As I am not gay, and referred to her as my wife, you may be safe in assuming that, in spite of the fact that I have an "old maid type dog" as my avatar, I am a male.

Tune in to Reality Remix, Wednesday nights on ATS Radio and you can even hear me!

adjensen
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

God does listen to prayers of righteous people who are alive.

But you seem to be saying that God does not listen to the prayers of righteous people when they are in his presence.

Again, I do not pray to Mary, or talk to my wife, for that matter, because I want them to do anything for me, apart from pray for me, and there is nothing in scripture that says a) that can't happen and b) doing so is sinful or wrong.

If I am in heaven and in the presence of God I no longer need to pray to God but ask him and God will answer!

reply to post by Fraudfinder

The reason I ask is because there are Christians who hear a voice from the dead that is a family member or friend and it is not them but an evil spirit. They hear this voice either inside their head or audible.

I have only had one experience of that nature.

She and I met late in life, and she had to significantly disrupt her life to marry me -- move, leave her family, run the risk of losing her job, etc, and I was talking to her one night and said that I felt bad about all of that. She put her hand over my heart and said "this is what is important, none of that."

About a week after she died, I was sitting in my living room, crying uncontrollably in grief, and suddenly I felt a bit of pressure on my chest, like someone's hand was there, and I felt (not heard) her voice, inside of me, say "You are my soulmate and we will never be apart."

I draw those two events together, have taken a lot of solace from them, and see no reason to believe that any evil spirit would be behind such consolation.

reply to post by Fraudfinder

If I am in heaven and in the presence of God I no longer need to pray to God but ask him and God will answer!

What do you think prayer is?

Prayer is an invocation or act that seeks to activate a rapport with a deity, an object of worship, or a spiritual entity through deliberate communication. (Source)

Whether here or there, prayer is communication with God, so you'll still pray. And, one hopes, God will respond to your prayers, even though you're dead, so if you know that, for example, one of your kids is sick, you'll pray to God that they will be healed and, viola!, you've done what we believe Mary, the Saints, and all those in heaven have done all along -- show concern for the living, and ask God to help them.

The only way that doesn't work is if those in heaven are unaware of those on Earth, which scripture says is not the case, or if those in heaven are indifferent towards those on Earth, which is unthinkable.

reply to post by WarminIndy


I can understand Christians banding together to fend off the criticism of non-believers, but Christians attacking Christians.....?

If Christians believe in a personal, why would any of them have trouble understanding that God shows "himself" in ways that are tailored specifically and with the most efficacy for the individual?

The example of Jodie Foster's character in the movie Contact" is a perfect illustration of this philosophy. Foster's character meets God and he appears to her in the form of her late father. It is a spiritually fulfilling and life changing experience that changes a hard core atheist into a believer. Alas, the only other people who believe her, are already believers.

adjensen
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

The reason I ask is because there are Christians who hear a voice from the dead that is a family member or friend and it is not them but an evil spirit. They hear this voice either inside their head or audible.

I have only had one experience of that nature.

She and I met late in life, and she had to significantly disrupt her life to marry me -- move, leave her family, run the risk of losing her job, etc, and I was talking to her one night and said that I felt bad about all of that. She put her hand over my heart and said "this is what is important, none of that."

About a week after she died, I was sitting in my living room, crying uncontrollably in grief, and suddenly I felt a bit of pressure on my chest, like someone's hand was there, and I felt (not heard) her voice, inside of me, say "You are my soulmate and we will never be apart."

I draw those two events together, have taken a lot of solace from them, and see no reason to believe that any evil spirit would be behind such consolation.

I am so sorry to hear she passed on so soon. You had a personal experience from heaven. You are 100% correct!

God bless you.

windword
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

I can understand Christians banding together to fend off the criticism of non-believers, but Christians attacking Christians.....?

If Christians believe in a personal, why would any of them have trouble understanding that God shows "himself" in ways that are tailored specifically and with the most efficacy for the individual?

The example of Jodie Foster's character in the movie Contact" is a perfect illustration of this philosophy. Foster's character meets God and he appears to her in the form of her late father. It is a spiritually fulfilling and life changing experience that changes a hard core atheist into a believer. Alas, the only other people who believe her, are already believers.

I am not attacking anyone.

Also you are wrong about God. He does not play games and appear as someone else or give false impressions of who he is.

reply to post by windword

The example of Jodie Foster's character in the movie Contact" is a perfect illustration of this philosophy. Foster's character meets God and he appears to her in the form of her late father.

I'm pretty sure that her father was an alien, not God -- I think that he even says something along the lines of "we don't know who built the system of wormholes."

Cool movie, though, one of my favourites.

adjensen
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

If I am in heaven and in the presence of God I no longer need to pray to God but ask him and God will answer!

What do you think prayer is?

Prayer is an invocation or act that seeks to activate a rapport with a deity, an object of worship, or a spiritual entity through deliberate communication. (Source)

Whether here or there, prayer is communication with God, so you'll still pray. And, one hopes, God will respond to your prayers, even though you're dead, so if you know that, for example, one of your kids is sick, you'll pray to God that they will be healed and, viola!, you've done what we believe Mary, the Saints, and all those in heaven have done all along -- show concern for the living, and ask God to help them.

The only way that doesn't work is if those in heaven are unaware of those on Earth, which scripture says is not the case, or those in heaven are indifferent towards those on Earth, which is unthinkable.

One problem with your post - your definition is incorrect - Prayer is spiritual communication - in heaven it is not - it is personal face to face. Do you think people fall on their face when they meet Jesus and start praying?

ADDED LATER: I did die on 4 July 2013 and I came back. I never wanted to bring this subject up because it is personal but I will think about it and maybe it is time to make a thread about this......maybe

reply to post by Fraudfinder

One problem with your post - your definition is incorrect - Prayer is spiritual communication - in heaven it is not - it is personal face to face. Do you think people fall on their face when they meet Jesus and start praying?

Maybe it's just semantics, but any communication with God is considered prayer. Yes, the nature of it will change, you can go up to Jesus and say "please heal my kid", and get a direct answer, but it's still prayer.

Yes, please do write up your NDE -- it is a fascinating subject, and usually brings comfort to those who are struggling with loss.

reply to post by adjensen


That's true, the movie was primarily alien themed, but it did address and touched on the concept of God.

"Contact" is a film that takes place at the intersection of science, politics and faith.......

In the film she forms a cautious relationship with Palmer Joss (Matthew McConaughey), a believer in God who writes about science. Key roles are played by science advisors to the President, who see aliens, God and messages from space all in cynical political terms.........
www.rogerebert.com...

Sagan left the conversation of God open to discussion and interpretation, in my opinion. And, you're right, great movie!

windword
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

I can understand Christians banding together to fend off the criticism of non-believers, but Christians attacking Christians.....?

If Christians believe in a personal, why would any of them have trouble understanding that God shows "himself" in ways that are tailored specifically and with the most efficacy for the individual?

The example of Jodie Foster's character in the movie Contact" is a perfect illustration of this philosophy. Foster's character meets God and he appears to her in the form of her late father. It is a spiritually fulfilling and life changing experience that changes a hard core atheist into a believer. Alas, the only other people who believe her, are already believers.

Windword

It is because people have become accustomed to having God explained to them rather than seeking after God themselves. You know this as well as I do. People are just nuts sometimes.

But I understand FraudFinder's position. FraudFinder believes they have a duty to God and is doing God a favor. FraudFinder and I just have different ways of viewing The Great Commission. I don't think FraudFinder is attacking me, but there is a lot against Catholics and vice versa historically.

I am not going to sit here and charge Catholics for some people back then for persecuting my Sephardi Jewish ancestors, and neither will I charge any today for King Charles and St. Crispin's Day. And that is a huge problem among Christians is that they can't lay old grudges down. Adjensen, FlyersFan and I simply can't keep an old war going on. God doesn't visit the iniquities of the fathers onto the children, so we shouldn't either.

What you are seeing is a replay of the Protestant Reformation.

But I have to trust that Paul was right when he said "Let every man be persuaded in his own mind". And if you compare that to, "Work out your own soul salvation with fear and trembling before the Lord" which are two verses that FraudFinder should be well-aware of.

I am reminded of Paul's conversation with Agrippa, when the great question was asked, "What is truth?" Agrippa said "Almost you have persuaded me to be a Christian" Paul had to leave Agrippa with that. But in no way could Paul ever force Agrippa to see it his way. If they don't accept, walk away.

But I can defend Christianity as I know Christianity should be. But so far, these are just words in a forum, we aren't threatening to kill each other again. We never want to go back to that.

windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

That's true, the movie was primarily alien themed, but it did address and touched on the concept of God.

"Contact" is a film that takes place at the intersection of science, politics and faith.......

In the film she forms a cautious relationship with Palmer Joss (Matthew McConaughey), a believer in God who writes about science. Key roles are played by science advisors to the President, who see aliens, God and messages from space all in cynical political terms.........
www.rogerebert.com...

Sagan left the conversation of God open to discussion and interpretation, in my opinion. And, you're right, great movie!

I saw that movie too, it was really good.

I think the most defining moment was when Jodi Foster's character was like "Whaaa, he's a priest???"

In her experience, she saw something real to her. And what she saw, brought comfort and hope to her.

adjensen
reply to post by windword

 

The example of Jodie Foster's character in the movie Contact" is a perfect illustration of this philosophy. Foster's character meets God and he appears to her in the form of her late father.

I'm pretty sure that her father was an alien, not God -- I think that he even says something along the lines of "we don't know who built the system of wormholes."

Cool movie, though, one of my favourites.

i'm pretty sure her father was her father.

But my favorite character was the blind guy who could hear something more than the usual person.

reply to post by WarminIndy

i'm pretty sure her father was her father.

When she met him in the stars? No, he said that he took the form of her father to make communication easier, he never said that he was her father. From the statements that he made, I thought it was pretty clear that he was a member of an alien race that used the wormholes to get around, and had sent the radio message to Earth as a point of first contact.

I need to re-watch that movie, it's been years. Might do so this afternoon, one of the blessings of working from home

adjensen
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

i'm pretty sure her father was her father.

When she met him in the stars? No, he said that he took the form of her father to make communication easier, he never said that he was her father. From the statements that he made, I thought it was pretty clear that he was a member of an alien race that used the wormholes to get around, and had sent the radio message to Earth as a point of first contact.

I need to re-watch that movie, it's been years. Might do so this afternoon, one of the blessings of working from home

Which opens up a new thing, if in heaven we are known as we are, but in a glorified body, and we don't what form that glorified body is, it would have been necessary for him to show her the form she was familiar with. That makes sense to me.

But I suppose it leaves it up to our interpretation.

That's a clever thing Sagan did there.