Being christian while rejecting important OT figures?

babloyi
And the book has it written in clear black and white that whether or not he has the right to change them he said NOTHING will be changed until heaven and earth pass. Interesting. Someone is lying. I wonder who?

That's the problem with people, both christians and nonchristians, who cherry pick the bible literally and don't understand the whole picture, and dont' understand theology. The answer was given. You don't understand it because you aren't looking at the whole picture. Whatever dude. Believe what you want.

A person totally could, and can disbelieve in the existence of Adam and Eve and not accept evolution.

Sure.

Nowhere is it said that "1/2 the christians don't believe in Adam and Eve". What it said was that that the poll you quoted talked about the Genesis account of Creation, NOT the EXISTENCE of Adam and Eve. I hope you have the sense to understand that these are two separate topics.

I hope you have the common sense to understand that if people disregard the Genesis account, they also most likely disregard Adam and Eve since it is the major part of Genesis. COMMON SENSE. Try breaking through our indoctrination and using it.

your arguments and responses are nowhere near as cogent and sensible as you might think.

Actually, they make perfect sense ... to the sensible.

it IS quite funny to see the you squirming and complaining when the same is done to you. Except in this case you don't seem to have any sensible response to it.

Only in your dreams. I'm not squirming. And any complaining I'm doing is because of you being obtuse and your inability of having basic christian theology be able to sink into your brain. Enjoy your delusion about me ... your intensity on this matter is hysterical.

Bottom line - Christians are still Christians if they reject Old Testament figures/stories. It doesn't effect their being a Christian. All that is required - Believe that Jesus came from Heaven to save souls, and try to love God and neighbor. Half the Christians don't take the Old Testament literally, and they are still Christians. Deal with the truth of that.

Why the Muslims are so uptight about Christianity being so simple ... it's really odd.
I guess they are a legalistic bunch ... missing the entire 'spirit' of who Jesus is.
Matthew 16:18 - Jesus gave full authority to HIS CHURCH (and he broke the OT Laws).
There's some legalism for ya'll to chew on for a while.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Seriously. Muslims can't even figure out who is a 'proper muslim' and who isn't

In reality, all major Islamic sects read from the same Koran and have no arguments on theological subjects such as the nature of God, etc.

In contrast, Christians were known to argue on basic issues such as the nature of God. Which is why, just 3 centuries after Jesus, they had to decide by vote issues such as the nature of God and Jesus etc. (see : Council of Nicea)

Even today, some Christians are divided on theological issues. Some Christians say God is a trinity, others say that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, and yet others say that Jesus is NOT God Himself. I've seen all kinds on ATS. It gets even better.... most Christians accept the Bible cover to cover, some reject portions of it as myths (refer to the links you posted on a different thread) and some even go so far as to claim that Jesus taught Buddhism!

Another fact is that there happens to be more than just one Bible.
Biblical Studies: Too Many Bibles

So its the Christians who need to figure out what "Christianity" is supposed to be teaching.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Seriously. Muslims can't even figure out who is a 'proper muslim' and who isn't

In reality, all major Islamic sects read from the same Koran and have no arguments on theological subjects such as the nature of God, etc.

In contrast, Christians were known to argue on basic issues such as the nature of God. Which is why, just 3 centuries after Jesus, they had to decide by vote issues such as the nature of God and Jesus etc. (see : Council of Nicea)

Even today, some Christians are divided on theological issues. Some Christians say God is a trinity, others say that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, and yet others say that Jesus is NOT God Himself. I've seen all kinds on ATS. It gets even better.... most Christians accept the Bible cover to cover, some reject portions of it as myths (refer to the links you posted on a different thread) and some even go so far as to claim that Jesus taught Buddhism!

Another fact is that there happens to be more than just one Bible.
Biblical Studies: Too Many Bibles

So its the Christians who need to figure out what "Christianity" is supposed to be teaching.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Seriously. Muslims can't even figure out who is a 'proper muslim' and who isn't

In reality, all major Islamic sects read from the same Koran and have no arguments on theological subjects such as the nature of God, etc.

In contrast, Christians were known to argue on basic issues such as the nature of God. Which is why, just 3 centuries after Jesus, they had to decide by vote issues such as the nature of God and Jesus etc. (see : Council of Nicea)

Even today, some Christians are divided on theological issues. Some Christians say God is a trinity, others say that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, and yet others say that Jesus is NOT God Himself. I've seen all kinds on ATS. It gets even better.... most Christians accept the Bible cover to cover, some reject portions of it as myths (refer to the links you posted on a different thread) and some even go so far as to claim that Jesus taught Buddhism!

Another fact is that there happens to be more than just one Bible.
Biblical Studies: Too Many Bibles

So its the Christians who need to figure out what "Christianity" is supposed to be teaching.

reply to post by FlyersFan

FlyersFan
That's the problem with people, both christians and nonchristians, who cherry pick the bible literally and don't understand the whole picture, and dont' understand theology. The answer was given. You don't understand it because you aren't looking at the whole picture.

Okay. What's the "whole picture", then? And don't quote me another verse that states the opposite of the verse I was talking about. That isn't a "whole picture". That is you cherry picking the parts you want and ignoring the part that I quoted. Only PART of the picture.

FlyersFan
I hope you have the common sense to understand that if people disregard the Genesis account, they also most likely disregard Adam and Eve since it is the major part of Genesis. COMMON SENSE.

I'm sorry, your common sense is quite nonsensical, and requires huge leaps of logic. We have an example of a christian right here in this thread who doesn't believe that Adam and Eve were the first (or only original) humans, and disregards the literal interpretation of the Genesis account, YET STILL BELIEVES IN THE EXISTENCE OF ADAM AND EVE. And he's not uncommon in that regard.
The MAJORITY of traditional christians worldwide do, WHETHER OR NOT they believe in Evolution or the Genesis account of creation.

FlyersFan
Only in your dreams. I'm not squirming. And any complaining I'm doing is because of you being obtuse and your inability of having basic christian theology be able to sink into your brain. Enjoy your delusion about me ... your intensity on this matter is hysterical.

My intensity?
I'm not the one mass quote-pasting the same set of links over and over and over in the same thread every couple of pages.

FlyersFan
Half the Christians don't take the Old Testament literally, and they are still Christians. Deal with the truth of that.

Hahah...aside from the one about the Genesis account of creation, none of your links restrict themselves to the OT. And some of the statistics I provided show that huge numbers (the majority in the UK, for example, as well as a huge portion of the US) don't believe in the virgin birth, or that Jesus came back from the dead, or that Jesus is the only way to salvation, and they are still christian.
Do you "Deal with the truth of that"?

FlyersFan
Why the Muslims are so uptight about Christianity being so simple ... it's really odd.

You find the concept of a monotheistic god that is actually 3 entities, who "sent itself" to earth through the prepared womb of a sinless woman to be born as a human and sacrifice himself so his blood would wash away the predefined sins of mankind as "simple"?
You must be a politician.

reply to post by FlyersFan

PROVEN WRONG ON FIRST THREE PAGES OF THIS THREAD. no matter how many times you repeat that lie, that wont' change the facts. So Islam says it's good for you to lie and lie and lie??? What a sucky religion.

Those links you spammed this thread with only prove that Christians don't believe in their own Bibles... not that its the default view of Christianity. Your personal version of Christianity apparently says its good to proclaim that Christianity is collapsing... Works great for me!

STOP TELLING LIES. STOP OBSESSING ABOUT ME ADDRESS THE TOPIC. YOU'VE BEEN PROVEN WRONG.

Obsessing about you? You're being hysterical. Proven wrong? Only in opposite-land.

Also, bold letters and all-caps don't help your argument, that is, if you had one in the first place.

reply to post by wildtimes

No, if you are defining a "Biblical Christian" as a fundamentalist Bible-thumper. Yes, if you are defining Christians with open minds.

False. A Biblical Christian, does not need to be a "fundamentalist Bible-thumper". Maybe that's how you go about defining your Christian neighbors.

Go to any mainstream church in your town and ask the pastor/priest what he thinks of the Old Testament and the stories of Adam and Noah. There's a good chance that he believes in them and reveres the Old Testament figures, unlike certain "Christians" on this forum.

Also, none of those scholars listed in www.tombofjesus.com appear to be Christians. So they have presented, at best, guesswork and conjecture. Try and grasp the fact that the overwhelming majority of Christians don't believe the claims that Jesus went to India. That's a fringe belief...not that of Biblical Christianity.

sk0rpi0n
In reality, all major Islamic sects read from the same Koran and have no arguments on theological subjects such as the nature of God, etc.

In reality, they blow each other up and shoot each other, and scream that the other Islamic sects aren't 'real muslims' because they happen to worship their allah a bit differently.

So its the Christians who need to figure out what "Christianity" is supposed to be teaching.

You are trying to push your Muslim mentality onto Chrsitianity. There is no one Christian group. They all have different thoughts. And they are all still Christian under the Christian umbrella. It's rather funny that you are telling Christians that all two billion of them need to think in one unit and interpret scripture the same way ... but you Muslims can't even figure out what a 'real muslim' is and you all shoot each other and blow each other up over differences in theology.

sk0rpi0n
Those links you spammed this thread with only prove that Christians don't believe in their own Bibles...

1 - Facts that counter your argument isn't 'spam' ... it's facts.
2 - You have proven my case. Many "CHRISTIANS' don't take the Old Testament literally.
You just said it. And guess what ... they don't have to. Your own statement has
proven this entire thread to be bogus.

sk0rpi0n
Go to any mainstream church in your town and ask the pastor/priest what he thinks of the Old Testament and the stories of Adam and Noah. There's a good chance that he believes in them and reveres the Old Testament figures, unlike certain "Christians" on this forum.

1 - I"m a Christian. No need to put it in 'quotes' ....

2 - "Go Ask' you say ... So a quick survey of my neighbors ...

On my left a Catholic family. They do not believe in Noahs Ark nor in Adam and Eve. They believe in Evolution and that God used Evolution to create humans.

On my right a Catholic family. They do not believe in Noahs Ark nor in Adam and Eve. They believe in Evolution and that God used Evolution to create humans. They don't go to church right now and are dealing with an anger issue of having lost a 3 day old baby to severe health issues.

Behind us (backyards touch). A Methodist woman. A nurse. She doesn't believe in Noahs Ark. As for Adam and Eve ... "I don't care, it doesn't matter, I'm here" is her response.

They are all christians no matter if they buy into Noahs Ark or Adam and Eve, or not.

The other neighbor in back is from South Africa. I didn't see them out and so I didn't ask.

ETA ... If I lived in the deep south I'd probably have Baptist and Church of Christ neighbors who would say the opposite. And they'd still be Christians ... because it DOESN"T MATTER.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


There’s an idea that religions function like viruses
en.wikipedia.org...

If that’s true then the forces of evolution will effect how these mind viruses (meme’s) spread and survive and the meme with the most diversity will be very much more likely to survive into the future

So I guess that where you see Christianities diversity as a weakness it might in fact its best strength
And where you see as Islam’s strength in its rigid adherence to the idea that the Quran is all totally true, may in fact its biggest weakness

For example the Quran has the flood myth but if the rest of the world knows that the flood story is just a myth then why would anybody believe Muslim claims about the Quran?


Is that why you started this thread?
If even the Christians don’t believe half their own book then there’s not a hope in hell they will believe any of yours?

reply to post by babloyi

So you accept what he says about history because you've come to think that his belief in Ahmadiyyah Islam (which is the root of his belief about Jesus in Kashmir, rather than actual history) is "reasonable and calm" and is a "legitimate sect"?

Actually, Dr Hassnain is a SUFI MYSTIC, babs. He's not an Ahmadiyyah muslim. Don't know why I didn't mention that yesterday - although I'll say that some of the more reasonable and calm muslim sites I've read WERE Ahmadiyya.

Also, you seem to think you have tip-of-the-tongue knowledge about all sorts of scholars who disregard the ideas presented by the researchers, but have yet to provide any SOURCES for your gainsaying.

FF is right; she and I don't agree on everything, and I am not a "Christian" except insofar as I DO believe The Golden Rule is all that matters....you yourself said earlier in the thread that Moses "stole it" from the Egyptians, and I have shown over and over, in post after post, and with SOURCES, that The Golden Rule was around LOooonnng before ANY of those supposed OT figures were recorded to have dreamed it up. By the way, did Muhammed ever say a similar thing?

So - where was Jesus during his "lost years"? Hmmm? You know so much - you tell us! The world will thank and revere you. headline: Western Muslimah solves ages-old mystery of Jesus' lost years with indisputable evidence!

sk0rpi0n
Go to any mainstream church in your town and ask the pastor/priest what he thinks of the Old Testament and the stories of Adam and Noah. There's a good chance that he believes in them and reveres the Old Testament figures, unlike certain "Christians" on this forum.

#1 ... I"m a Christian. Deal with it.

#2 - Okay .... Here ya' go ... Go Ask A Priest ... Should the Bible Be Read Literally or Figuratively?

Answer:
There are a variety of ways to interpret the Bible, because it is made up of various literary styles and uses different methods to convey the message.

How to read and interpret scripture - Canadian Bishops Booklet

4) The Principle of Completeness - No single verse of the Bible, taken by itself, expresses the whole
of God’s plan. You can prove anything by taking verses here and there out of context. Keep in mind the context of the whole book, and of the other books of the Bible.

5) The Norm of Christ - “Different as the books which comprise it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God’s plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.” (Catechism,
112) The Old Testament has a value on its own, but Christians can see in it the foreshadowing of Christ. When disturbed by some things in the Old Testament (e.g. violence, ritualistic concerns, harsh laws), we should see them in the context of the final revelation in Jesus.

6) The Context of Living Faith - The Bible must be read within the context of the living faith of the Church upon which the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost. Christ did not give us the Bible directly: he gave us the Church, and it was out of the Church that the New Testament later arose. “Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart, rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of Scripture.” (Catechism, 113) It is our sense of the unity of the whole faith, sometimes called “the analogy of faith,” that allows us to interpret rightly any portion of it. (Catechism, 114) For example, if we want to know how to interpret the scriptural references to the Eucharist, we will be guided by our living faith in the Eucharist, which we Christians have celebrated since long before the Gospel was put into written form

** see in the context of Christ .. his revelation Matthew 16:18-19 .. he gives full authority of law to His church. What the Church says is the law. Combine that with him changing/improving the old laws ... bringing out what the REAL SPIRIT OF THE LAWS was supposed to be. He didn't do away with them ... he showed what the real spirit of them was supposed to be. This is how he not only upheld the laws, but at the same time fixed them.

Grace Communion International - (Protestant) - Should the Bible Be Read Literally or Figuretively

what if someone asks you, "Do you take the Bible literally?" The correct answer is: "I take the literal parts literally, the figurative parts figuratively, and I use common sense, my experience, my knowledge of language and grammar, and the techniques of hermeneutics to know the difference and help me interpret the statements.

Debate.org ... Should the Bible Be Read Literally or Figuratively?
Arguments and responses from people are given.
30% say it is to be read literally through and through.
70% say it is to be read figuratively.

Catholic Exchange - Should we take the bible literally or figuratively

Many themes and purposes arise in its pages, but the overall goal shows the salvation and redemption of man by the Almighty God, beginning in Genesis and going all the way through the final Amen in Revelation. So as you study the Bible, don't worry about whether you should take the words literally or figuratively. Just take them. Read them. Study them, and get to know what the Biblical record shows about the ongoing relationship between human beings and the God of love.

Protestant Rev. Dr. Rock Schuler - One minute VIDEO - Should the bible be read literally or figuratively?
Answer - Neither. The bible contains a whole array of literature ... a collection of many different books. Each book should be read understanding the purpose of the book. Some are myths; some are literal; some are historical. It takes a whole lot of study to understand which books are literal and which are figurative and which are myth with a lesson ....

reply to post by racasan


The God Virus: How Religion Infects Our Lives and Culture
is an interesting book that describes this phenomenon very succinctly.

I have a signed copy by the author, who I met last April.

reply to post by FlyersFan

There is no one Christian group. They all have different thoughts. And they are all still Christian under the Christian umbrella.

Then the Westboro Baptist Church and the Ku Klux Klan are as "Christian" as you are, merely because they call themselves "Christian". What about "Christians" who don't believe in the trinity? Or "Christians" who don't believe in the virgin birth? Let me guess, they are all "Christians", right?

1 - Facts that counter your argument isn't 'spam' ... it's facts.

It doesn't "counter" my argument, but simply proves that hundreds of Millions of Christians don't believe their own Bible. Its actually great material for a different thread I just thought of.
I could use those stats in a different thread titled "Facts that prove Christians don't believe their own Bibles". But you will probably show up in there and argue against the facts that you yourself posted.

Also, another Christian who posted here in this thread lamented over Christians not accepting the OT. This is normal behavior for a Biblical Christian. You on the other hand are proudly flaunting statistics on Christians not believing their own Bibles.

sk0rpi0n
Let me guess, they are all "Christians", right?

They are all Christian. So why did you even ask?
As for the Westboros ... they are disgusting and twisted.
But if they profess Jesus, then they are Christian.

It doesn't "counter" my argument, but simply proves that hundreds of Millions of Christians don't believe their own Bible.

And again .. you just have proven what I said and have proven your whole premise wrong. Many Christians don't take the Old Testament literally and they are still Christians. You even just said so, calling them Christians ... again.

The entire bible is not to be read as a literal historical document. Parts are literal. Parts are historical. Parts are allegorical. Parts are myth with a 'lesson'. Parts are folklore with a 'lesson'. You've been told this before and yet you still engage in armchair theology and expect Christians to act like Muslims and read the entire bible like you muslims read your Qu'ran ... in one literal lump. But that's not how the bible was written and it's not how it's supposed to be read. I gave links in the previous post. They are there for you to learn how to read the bible from ... although I doubt you'll actually listen to them.

Its actually great material for a different thread I just thought of.

Yet another thread by you trying to tell Christians how to be Christians ... and of course your version of Jesus and the O.T. is the 'muslim version'. Dude, hang it up. You aren't going to kill Christianity and make the Christians buy your Muslim version of Jesus.

sk0rpi0n
Also, another Christian who posted here in this thread lamented over Christians not accepting the OT. This is normal behavior for a Biblical Christian.

It's normal behavior for SOME Christians. But not for the majority. You know that. Congratulations. You found one fundamentalist Christian who thinks like you do.

So called 'normal behavior' for a Christian ranges from taking the entire bible literally (fundamentalists), to those who see the bible as historical and literal and figurative and myth and folklore, to those who just accept the New Testament .... and they are all 'normal christians'.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Dude, hang it up. You aren't going to kill Christianity

Well, looks like Christianity is going to kill itself.
Look at all those hundreds of millions of people NOT believing their own Bibles. (Refer to facts you posted earlier on this thread.)

reply to post by FlyersFan

Jeez, took me 20 minutes to figure out how, but here is a captured screenshot of the Pew Forum Research on how religious people view the "holy book." Notice how only 50% of Muslims believe the Qu'ran to be the literal word of God?

religions.pewforum.org...

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


boo ya

SEE THE ABOVE FOR ACTUAL DATA

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

YOU said 'go ask a priest or minister'. I posted information straight from them.
You didn't read the links. You didn't watch the video. You are just spewing.

Anyways, you just destroyed yourself - Your post here

sk0rpi0n
People don't usually learn science from those opposed to science. So there's no reason for people to learn Islam from those opposed to it.

People don't usually learn science from those opposed to science. So there's no reason for people to learn Christianity from those opposed to it. And since you have said that you can't wait for Christianity to die .. I'd say you are absolutely opposed to it.