Being christian while rejecting important OT figures?

reply to post by logical7

I know that Jesus pbuh was arguing with temple elders at a very young age, so he had learnt a lot, enough to correct mistakes of the priests. How do you explain that? Or you dismiss this story as a lie?

No, I don't dismiss it as a "lie" - it would show that he was gifted. Some people are gifted and able to see higher 'planes' -

but since you don't believe in reincarnation or perpetual growth of souls, you won't accept my premise there either. I'm fairly sure that Jesus existed, as a human being, and I'm convinced he was teaching Eastern Enlightenment.

So, no. His arguments in the temple make perfect sense to me. He ticked them off; so he had to go.
He would up having to leave almost anywhere he went due to upsetting TPTW at the time.

reply to post by wildtimes

but since you don't believe in reincarnation or perpetual growth of souls, you won't accept my premise there either. I'm fairly sure that Jesus existed, as a human being, and I'm convinced he was teaching Eastern Enlightenment.

Do you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin?
Do you believe that Jesus was the Messiah?
Do you believe that Jesus ascended to God alive?
Do you believe that Jesus will return in the end times?

If your answer is "no", then you are holding on to a personalized fan-fiction version of Jesus, where he was teaching Eastern Enlightenment. Either way, a debate between religious believers in Jesus and agnostic Jesus-fans are doomed to go nowhere.

On a side note, why is the Bible and the Koran quiet on Jesus' travels? Why did they try and cover up the fact that Jesus traveled to India?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Do you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin?
Do you believe that Jesus was the Messiah?
Do you believe that Jesus ascended to God alive?
Do you believe that Jesus will return in the end times?

No, no, no, and NO.

Do you not understand that I don't consider myself a "Christian"?

As for why they would suppress it - that's pretty obvious, sk0rp - to keep people under control and not allow "alien ideas" into their manipulative, oppressive dogma.

Now it's your turn to answer a question I've long since asked you and gotten to response:

Why did you leave Christianity for Islam?

My newest thread, over in Conspiracies:
Right-Wing Group Seeks Help Rewriting the Bible Because It's Not Conservative Enough

It happened before, and IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN. Same with Koran. Therefore - NEITHER of them can be considered "the Word of God" or an actual message from "God" that has not been usurped and defiled.
Like a "veggie-burger" was swapped in for a "beef-burger."

It's fake, but some people prefer it.

reply to post by wildtimes

The Bible says NOTHING about where he was. Neither does the Koran (and I'm not sure how you see the Koran as a "main source" on Jesus). LOL

The Bible says he was in the middle east the whole time. The Bible doesn't say anything about any trip that Jesus made to India.
Also, the Koran, along with the Bible are the 2 major religious scriptures that include Jesus. Even Biblical apocrypha mention nothing about Jesus different story. So your "scholars" are pulling facts out of thin air.

But you seem to want to dismiss the main sources and prefer shaky sources from "scholars" claiming things that you want to hear.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

The Bible says he was in the middle east the whole time.

WHERE? Show me where it says that.

It doesn't.

The Bible doesn't say anything about any trip that Jesus made to India.

It doesn't say anything AT ALL about where he was from age 13-29. Period. India, the loo, Palestine, hiding in a cave somewhere talking to angels....nothing. Therefore, it is a mystery. People solving it are working hard at it. Whether you want to believe that or not is up to you. It's certainly not "thin air."

Also, the Koran, along with the Bible are the 2 major religious scriptures that include Jesus.

Quite. Yes.

Even Biblical apocrypha mention nothing about Jesus different story. So your "scholars" are pulling facts out of thin air.

I don't know what you consider to be "Biblical Apocrypha", but the Nag Hammadi texts certainly DO add to the information that he taught 'Eastern' principles of enlightenment, one-ness with the Divine, and how to attain "heaven on Earth."

Just because they weren't "selected" for the "Bible" doesn't mean they are "lies". Especially the ones that the mother of Mohammed Ali (who found the jar next to a corpse in a cave while mining for fertilizer) threw a few of them into the fire.
Perhaps THOSE were the ones that contained the "from there to, from there to, from there to" (simliar to the "begats").

You don't know, and pretending you do is disingenuous.

reply to post by FlyersFan

1 - Important to some Christians does NOT EQUATE to being a belief requirement to be a Christian.

Not "some".
ALL Christians consider it a belief requirement to believe in the OT figures. See these links :

UCG.org - The Importance of the Old Testament
Christianity.net.au - “why is the Old Testament so important
thesword.ca - The Importance of the Old Testament
gotquestions.org - Why should we study the Old Testament?
catholic.com - How important is the Old Testament for Catholics?
The Importance of The Old Testament for the Christian Faith
(Those are the first 6 results that came up in a google search)

Try addressing the above links.
Then try posting links to a handful of Christian groups that share in your dismissal of the OT, the Adam, Noah, Abraham etc. it might help your argument. Hint : You can't. Because such groups don't ex

I gave information showing that 1/2 of Christians don't read the bible literally and don't have to.

And I just showed you that all your own source believes in a literal Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham etc, thereby proving that belief in them is important to Christianity.
Also, this is about whether or not a Christian can reject the OT figures and prophets. So far, every Christian source, both yours and mine, show that that the belief OT is important to Christianity.

sk0rpi0n
ALL Christians consider it a belief requirement to believe in the OT figures.

Dead wrong. Already proven wrong by pages 2 & 3 . Thick much?

reply to post by wildtimes

WHERE? Show me where it says that. It doesn't.

You claim Jesus went to India. Where does the Bible say he went to India? It doesn't.

It doesn't say anything AT ALL about where he was from age 13-29. Period. India, the loo, Palestine, hiding in a cave somewhere talking to angels....nothing. Therefore, it is a mystery.

The Bible also doesn't say anything about the younger years of many prophets. That doesn't indicate they went elsewhere and to study a foreign religion.
Also, if the Bible doesn't say anything about where he was from age 13-29, it simply means he led a quiet life among his own people, probably running little chores for Joseph and Mary, like any other kid. It doesn't magically lend credibility to the claim that he went to India, or anywhere else. Besides Jesus career started in his 30's, so there was nothing to write about him until then.

But of course, the idea that Jesus went on an adventure to India is more exciting to some.

People solving it are working hard at it. Whether you want to believe that or not is up to you. It's certainly not "thin air."

Its "thin air" because the people solving it have conveniently chosen to ignore what the main sources of Jesus says. They operate on the idea that "since it doesn't say anything, he must have been upto something in another country".

sk0rpi0n
You claim Jesus went to India. Where does the Bible say he went to India? It doesn't.

Where does the bible claim that Abraham built the Kabbah? It doesn't.
Where does the bible claim that Jesus survived the crucifixion? It doesn't.
WHere does the bible claim _____ (Insert muslim fabrication here) ? It doesn't.

You fail.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Already proven wrong by pages 2 & 3 . Thick much?

Well, you've been proven wrong by your own source, that teaches belief in a literal Adam, Noah, Abraham etc.

Also, the verdict is in from Christians : Contrary to what you believe - consider the Old Testament to be important to Christianity. (See links here )

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Also, if the Bible doesn't say anything about where he was from age 13-29, it simply means he led a quiet life among his own people, probably running little chores for Joseph and Mary, like any other kid.

Um, NO. It simply means THE BIBLE DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT IT.

It doesn't magically lend credibility to the claim that he went to India, or anywhere else.

It also doesn't magically mean he never went anywhere. The Silk Road was heavily traveled, and merchants shared news from afar. Even if he stayed put, he'd have heard of the Eastern thoughts. He was not living in a bubble.

How do you NOT KNOW THAT? I think you do, and you're just grasping at straws to build a strawman.
FACT IS, he would have known about Eastern religions EITHER WAY. And what teenager doesn't go through a "rebellion" phase and discard his parents' ideology in search of his own? The "oppressed, abused" kind.

Besides Jesus career started in his 30's, so there was nothing to write about him until then.

Says you. Assuming much? Were you on the Council?
In those days, boys were married off at 13. He wasn't "still a kid" after that. NOWadays we know that maturity doesn't occur until, mmm...about AGE 30.

You are REALLY stretching to say that "since it wasn't mentioned in the Bible or Koran, it can't possibly be so."
Whatever. Your arguments are getting weaker, sk0rp.

reply to post by FlyersFan

FlyersFan
Where does the bible claim that Abraham built the Kabbah? It doesn't.
Where does the bible claim that Jesus survived the crucifixion? It doesn't.
WHere does the bible claim _____ (Insert muslim fabrication here) ? It doesn't.

You fail.

Didn't really want to step in on the catfight you have going on with sk0rp, but your point doesn't really make sense. The Bible isn't really relevant to muslim beliefs. It IS relevant to Christian beliefs, however.

Also, you keep going on about how only 50% of muslims believe in the quran literally, but that is very much of a non-issue (even disregarding your argument with sk0rp over the exact percentages). The Quran itself states that parts of it are metaphorical, and parts of it are literal.

reply to post by babloyi

The Quran itself states that parts of it are metaphorical, and parts of it are literal.

First off, that poll is irrelevant to this thread as it only reflected how people approached their scriptures.
It has no bearing on as to what the actual religion requires of its adherents... as in this case, a belief in the Old Testament figures as real people.

Also, you keep going on about how only 50% of muslims

50% of Muslims from 1050 people polled.
36% of them believe the Koran is the word of God, but that they don't believe its literally "true word for word". Its a minor and rather vague speculation.

reply to post by wildtimes

Do you not understand that I don't consider myself a "Christian"?

Then I am not interested in debating peoples personal beliefs, whether yours or FF's. People are entitled to their fan-fiction versions of Jesus, its not worth my time debating them. I don't even have to because the point of this thread was to determine whether "Christians" can reject Old Testament figures (as the title says) Every Christian source posted in this thread shows that belief in the OT and its figures are foundationally important to Christianity.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


How about this:
Right-Wing Group Seeks Help Rewriting the Bible Because It's Not Conservative Enough

reply to post by wildtimes

Um, NO. It simply means THE BIBLE DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT IT.

Then just leave it at that. There is no reason to assume that he went out to India. Cool?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


No, not cool.
We all have to "assume" he was somewhere. No harm in finding out where. (Well, there's harm ONLY if you are concerned that the fairy tales and omissions are okay.)
You don't have to like it, but it's worth exploring when one is searching for THE TRUTH.

For some glitchy reason, this part of my above post with link to a new thread got truncated:
It's a link to a thread I just made about an article showing that Conservative Thumpers are in the process of rewriting the entire Bible to suit their fancy.

You spend LOTS OF TIME debating people even while you say you don't have time. No amount of "neener neener" and "finger-pointing" and "ad hominem" attacks change it. You are wrong, sk0rp.

@wildtimes... ''We all have to "assume" he was somewhere. '' Well, christians and muslims are going to assume he was at home. Or does being ''home'' not qualify as being ''somewhere''? _________________________________________

''You spend LOTS OF TIME debating people even while you say you don't have time.'' - I don't mind debating theology with people who see eye to eye with me on at least the basic premise. Agnostics and special cases with personal self-contradicting theologies aren't really worth my time, though they recieve more than their fair share of my time.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

I don't mind debating theology with people who see eye to eye with me on at least the basic premise.

The basic premise that lack of information means he was home? He was MIA. You are ASSUMING, and assuming others will assume the same things you do. Lack of information is LACK OF INFORMATION.

LOL! Yeah, try that on a witness stand after someone has disappeared and then returned 19 years later:
Well, I don't know where he was, so he must have been at home.
LAME

And "debate" isn't debate if you only talk to people who agree with you. So - what do you call it then, this thick-headed, belligerent thing that you do?

Let's see......how about
.
.
.
Attack?
.
.
.
Yeah, that will work.

sk0rpi0n
People are entitled to their fan-fiction versions of Jesus, its not worth my time debating them.

That would be the Qu'ran version.

sk0rpi0n
Well, you've been proven wrong by your own source, that teaches belief in a literal Adam, Noah, Abraham etc.

Dead wrong. Pages 2 & 3 prove it.

sk0rpi0n
Then just leave it at that. There is no reason to assume that he went out to India. Cool?

Cool? Since when does Skorpion say that?
Didn't sound like him in the past few pages but ...
That's it. Someone else is using skorpions account today ....