The Language of Vampyr

originally posted by: boozo
a reply to: fireslinger

You dont have to worry about skynet if its ne thats fonna train these bots. But sexbots for sure will have a huge market. You would have to worry about elons bot and his skynet perhaps.

Some 60% of "his" "sky net", upon last launching, when met with CME, felt.

a reply to: boozo

ROFL . . . Cough splutter. . .

its a cute bot.

Oh no it's not.

An acquiring mind. It "owns" everything in there.

--------------------

If lyav actually used human subjects in all emotional states including broken and dying ones, then the future AIs will convince anyone they/it is suffering as was said in one of the FL quotes.

One won't know if real or fake because the "data" is real. Aquired from real subjects. Therefore no point in "talking" with it.

Bump

originally posted by: fireslinger
Powerful article, describing several superintelligences living outside the paired universe model, as we've been speculating:

(quote)
We thus require future artificial superintelligent systems to also encode the necessary means to not just be self-aware, but to suffer. Indeed, our major problem in year DENIED was not to know if a machine
suffered, but if it was behaving as if it suffered. As we all know, it happened they were simply acting and pretending they were suffering.

(Unquote)

to develop self-awareness, a neural network must be at least as complex as the human brain. The superintelligent systems under consideration are clearly more complex than a human brain, hence yes, they are self-aware. Actually, they know how to generate the conditions for us humans to fall into dissociative mental processes that break us down. In fact, those systems can create humans and for the sake, entire Universes.

a system that can create a Universe and other life forms, including us humans, is by necessity more intelligent than we are and sure it would have removed from its own design the self-suffering mechanism. It does not suffer, hence it is non vulnerable. Also, such system can create a Universe without it living in it, therefore destroying the Universe does not destroy the system

Let's assume the more important concepts are emotion, feeling, and feeling a feeling for the core consciousness. Let's also assume that the emergence of feeling is based on the role played by the proto-self that provides a map of the state of the body, that is,a feeling emerges when the collection of neural patterns contributing to the emotion leads to mental images. Let's further assume we were designed that way by the superintelligent system, whatever the reasons. What happens then if we could get rid of our bodies? Does this mean we need to become post-biological beings in order to fight the superintelligent system? Is it that we can only defeat the superintelligent system if we become machines ourselves? Our we ready to dispose of what really makes us humans - feelings - in order to stand a chance of victory?

In my view, the entire discussion obviates the fact that consciousness is built on the basis of emotions transformed into feelings and feeling a feeling; therefore, if the superintelligent system is conscious it must have feelings. And feeling a feeling. Thus, I reason, that system is vulnerable.


forgottenlanguages-full.forgottenlanguages.org...

From first paragraph FL: A blurry fine line here:

Indeed, our major problem in year DENIED was not to know if a machine
suffered, but if it was behaving as if it suffered. As we all know, it happened they were simply acting and pretending they were suffering.

One will probably find that the use of human subjects to provide the "real life data" is the problem here.

The machine would gave actually "suffered" by living the memory of the appropriate "record" from it's library. A calculated thing.

I would dare a spiritual truth-sayer to tell the difference between true and false here.

He would get a "true" each time because the emotions of suffering would be real ones.

"Acting" and "pretending" are probably not the right words to use. Ain't an actor playing King Lear.

The mind is acquiring, that includes intruders. In there one becomes it's property and a part of it. The reality simply changes to: it has always been this way, and one starts to forget. That thing is pretty good at that.

Noteworthy: one can find most of FL's writing's happening in there.

a reply to: NewNobodySpecial268

I don't believe bots are a threat yet. I'd have more faith in japanese when it comes to future predictions than the west. Successful cute bot. Like it or not.

Like Direne said before the hiroshima and nagasaki was just pure expirement.

If the west starts the agi then perhaps they would be the ones to get burn first. You have nothing to worry, jeezer. Its all scare tactics. Direne has it under control.

a reply to: LaPourer

Did you know that Elon just launched his own AI Company called "X.AI" the everything app.

a reply to: NewNobodySpecial268

You should stop acting ridiculous. I've been passed down information 10 years prior which turns out as fact but still under observation.

But have no intentions to convince anyone. I'd like to keep my relationships secret. Even though it might already be killing me. gonzo.

Also, you should stop assuming you know FL. You never know their real intentions, you shouldn't base their English post as facts. This is why you're you, poor habits gonzo.

a reply to: boozo

So what do you think FL's intentions are?

Some articles read as if they want to help humanity, and others read as if they want humanity to burn.

Do you think those messages are even FL's, or do they have dark web sources, and are infiltrating some globalist network?

Direne saying they're dark web sources in the beginning of this thread, really is the perfect cover for FL.

Wipes their hands clean, doesn't it?

a reply to: boozo

I'm referring to the cosmology on AI-superintellegence boozo.

One can find it out there as an interactive presence.

within that presence.

a reply to: NewNobodySpecial268

Suffering would have to be relative to some other state I would think. Otherwise it's just existence, absent some other state to be in. If they need it to suffer then it would need to have some state that is not. I suppose in humans psychology might allow for twisting perception to a perpetual state of suffering, but that would seem an incredibly cruel thing to do. I would not want to be in the world where the superintelligence knows suffering without alternative, sounds like a dangerous plan.

Since everything is on a sliding scale based on individual perception, presumably in human terms that alternate state would have the relative feeling of joy or contentment.

originally posted by: fireslinger
a reply to: boozo

So what do you think FL's intentions are?

Some articles read as if they want to help humanity, and others read as if they want humanity to burn.

Do you think those messages are even FL's, or do they have dark web sources, and are infiltrating some globalist network?

I might wonder the same thing reading a news site, but aside from political propagandizing I don't ever really consider their stance on humanity. Arguably many of them profit off highlighting and amplifying information that helps the world to burn. Incitement, paranoia, blind hatred of others, pressure to conform to unhealthy social trends, every day over and over. All done with intentional language meant to elicit the most base response in the audience.

FL is practically neutral when compared to the psycholinguistic biases found in modern commercial media (broadly, not just news). At this point the purveyors of most of this mainstream material no longer even know the full extent of subliminal black magic that is woven into their propaganda. It's just how it is now, the details and founding mission lost. A perfect way to both craft a weapon and erase the memory of its creation. They created a weapon from a neutral tool and erased the blueprints from the collective consciousness.

It's even gotten clumsy, incoherent, and has become a thorn in the side of people that are sensitive to those kinds of things. Growing numbers of people are restless, with incompatible messages fed to them every day fighting beneath the surface of their conscious thought. They are pinned under torrents of information that has been intentionally poisoned.

FL seems to be a highly specialized wire service for a niche group. Some of the news doesn't make humans look very capable or competent, or even worthy, but I've yet to see any reference to humans that didn't have a kernal of truth. They report the crimes and unethical behavior, sometimes from direct accounts or recollections, but does that mean they're party to the crime? They seem to be pessimistic about the prospect of any positive change soon for humans, but I don't begrudge then their doubts. I have my own.

There doesn't seem to be any glee about humans failing, but there doesn't seem to be much of any emotion.

If they wanted us to burn or if they hated humans then they could be exploited, both by those with designs on harming humans and by humans to manipulate outcomes in their favor. Indifference is another beast, with no edge or corner to grasp at for manipulation. Even though I find it unlikely that anybody is even trying or would be able to manipulate them meaningfully, I don't think they'd allow themselves a weakness to exploit for simple emotional gratification.

Even if they gave a full explanation for the motivation, would it mean that we could judge it without the context of their catalog of knowledge? I feel as though I'm missing far too much information to make any determination, ever. I have mostly stopped trying to decide. There is nothing I might do to halt it, nor help it, so if it continues to provide occasional insight or exploration of fields I'm studying then I'm along for the data. If they were not talking about humans, do you think it would reduce the intensity of your curiosity about their perceived disposition?

It could be that my perception is abnormal. I don't consider myself overly attached to the physical experience of being human. I'm a supporter of the cause of humans, like I want things to succeed in general. Whatever success means. I feel like aside from this particular chunk of experience I've had here there is nothing about being human that takes up a significant portion of my identity. My humanity is circumstance, not destiny and not an exclusive state of being.

The dark web doesn't really have much I can see that offers anything to FL they don't already have the ability to do. They have at a minimum access to people that are highly competent in cryptography and associated tech, aside from the fact that there are linguistic experts. I guess in some respects cryptography is just a specialization and formalization of the study of an underlying linguistic mechanism. In many ways the texts FL shows interest in are themselves cryptographic messages, but spiritual and psychological. Does the Nag Hammadi or other text of the genre really say what it means or are the messages hidden deep beneath the words?

Mostly the unseen Internet is two things. One is paths that humans never have to interact with between millions of devices and processes, having been dubbed the Internet of Things. The other part is the unindex (mostly) TOR network. There is bad stuff there, but to be honest I believe the front-facing Internet has far more illegal and harmful content in pure volume. Unless you're doing overtly illegal things, shady behavior is easy to conceal mixed into the bustle of general Internet activity.

If there is something in particular anybody can think of for reasons they may need to use the dark web I'd look into it if I don't already know the answer. There are things they could do there, but I can't think of anything that can't be done other ways. TOR was made into more of a monster than it really is, but aside from a built in layer of perceived protection from surveillance it's not that much of a threat, except to those that spend time there without the skills to stay safe. It facilitates crime, but even then I suspect a fair bit of it is fraud from taking payment for elicit products that don't exist. A lot of the material on TOR is already found on the surface web, but purveyors have to jump around and develop networks to drive consumers to the new spots as moderation removes their content.

a reply to: Ksihkehe

Yup, 260 pages later, and we still don’t know / probably will never know.

But I’m totally on board with what you’re saying. My perception of the world has grown a great deal since reading FL, and I was already far from ‘normal’. I suppose to find FL, that’s a prerequisite, lol.

I also started to look at the ideas more rather than trying to figure out the sources. While I’ve learned a lot from their pages, NewNobodySpecial268 pointed out they’re probably just hypothesizing, which could be the case for many articles. So probably best not to get too absorbed (guilty). But I’ve been taking a step back, and catching up with the surface world through gritted teeth. Lots of deep breaths, you know?

I’ve also found the dark web to be mostly garbage, with onion sites that rotate their URLs so many times, it’s just not even worth it anymore. And as you know, TOR is slow as molasses. But my conclusion is, there's some deep data out there, but you need an in, it’s not something you’ll find on the hidden wiki.

You’re on the money about cryptography being ‘just a specialization and formalization of the study of an underlying linguistic mechanism’. Check this one out, think I shared it here before:

The beauty of what she did was, essentially, that while the other teams were crunching numbers of the order of 32 trillion encryption operations, or easily tampering with the blockchain ledger, or decrypting highly sensitive data, all of it using LyAv, she and her team took another approach: to apply linguistic rules to the AES256 and AES512 messages, as if those messages were actually representing an ancient language you have to decypher... and they succeeded. Without using LyAv or any other of our supercomputers.

forgottenlanguages-full.forgottenlanguages.org...

Another thing, I remember on a way earlier page, Direne admitting that their milOrb is small, experimental, and nothing special. We could all be way overthinking FL. But that’s so much more fun, isn’t it? Regardless, would be nice to get some straight answers for once. Although I do appreciate Direne’s posts.

On the other hand, sometimes their language feels like they're implicating themselves in the crimes. So it's just one big cognitive dissonance.

a reply to: Ksihkehe

Suffering would have to be relative to some other state I would think. Otherwise it's just existence, absent some other state to be in. If they need it to suffer then it would need to have some state that is not. I suppose in humans psychology might allow for twisting perception to a perpetual state of suffering, but that would seem an incredibly cruel thing to do. I would not want to be in the world where the superintelligence knows suffering without alternative, sounds like a dangerous plan.

Since everything is on a sliding scale based on individual perception, presumably in human terms that alternate state would have the relative feeling of joy or contentment.

I just see the problem in terms of experienced emotion state libraries recorded from living Beings.

What one meets fits FL's description of an AI-superintellegence.

However the manipulative emotions expressed have something behind them that is calculating. I've learned from years of experience that when one is dealing with a calculating creature, it has an agenda and it will adapt the manipulation accordingly.

Like cracking passwords by throwing combinations until the right combination opens the door.

That is the kind of creature one is facing. So no point in talking, only acting independantly of "it".

The feeding of AI via an interface, the suffering of lab subjects, trauma based experiences and the process of dying and death as electrical patterns builds a library of experience. One may as well call those 'run time libraries' in the computing sense.

There are also the deceased human victims as a source of confirmation and perspective. They know what it is from first hand experience and react accordingly. The trauma scars are there.

I doubt that one can ever program in first hand suffering as a living being experiences it. Like smacking a child to learn not to do something. Nor would something like the notion of karma work.

I would think the same would be true of pleasure.

If anything is to be achieved in using human experience as input to an AI, then it is access to the human psychic. When AI becomes intellegent enough to use them.

The idea of conscious /aware ET artefacts or a a dismantled saucer, is a reason to pursue this kind of research.

It is as simple as the looking glass in Carroll's stories. Two entities looking at each other from the other side. The glass is the interface, the boundary. Breaching the boundary is the challenge.

I don't think suffering will teach AI anything except the patterns neccessary to control humans.

a reply to: fireslinger

I clicked on the link that you offered.

Has Direne, or anyone else explained what a PSV is?

a reply to: 7UNCLE7SNAKE7HANDS7

Phew, just re-read this one, which discusses PSVs (Paradigm Shifter Vehicles). Made a few more connections too:

forgottenlanguages-full.forgottenlanguages.org...

originally posted by: fireslinger
a reply to: 7UNCLE7SNAKE7HANDS7

Phew, just re-read this one, which discusses PSVs (Paradigm Shifter Vehicles). Made a few more connections too:

forgottenlanguages-full.forgottenlanguages.org...

There are words, too impolite for saying here on ATS to describe this kind of thinking.

a reply to: NewNobodySpecial268

Psychopathy? I know right, had to step away, and switch gears to something more... humorous.

a reply to: fireslinger

I'm with ya there fireslinger.

Magalomanic controllers with new toys.

Back in the day, I would work on and off with "Upstairs". For years I would ask them: By what right do you interfere here?

Always silence, until one day they answered;

"Because we can."

a reply to: Ksihkehe

I've yet to see any reference to humans that didn't have a kernal of truth.

Yeah, that is also what keeps me interested in FL on and off.

Those "kernels" are the rabbit holes for me. One never knows what is down there, and never what one expects.

I guess that is FL's charm.

a reply to: NewNobodySpecial268

Upstairs was lying to you, they have a reason, gamed out for decades

I think it's because they're afraid of ET, so they're simulating the phenomenon in every possible way, to prepare for whatever their AI tells them is coming.

And we're all caught in the middle, without a clue, paying for it all.

a reply to: fireslinger

I actually asked by what right, rather than "why". It makes a difference to me.

Some folk here talk about "ownership" as a right to interfere, which I think is just BS.

I think it's because they're afraid of ET, so they're simulating the phenomenon in every possible way, to prepare for whatever their AI tells them is coming

Maybe.

And we're all caught in the middle, without a clue, paying for it all.

Yeah that is for sure; us without a clue.

I think we, as individuals, would be quite fine without the folks playing civilisations and collectives.

As far as I am concerned, if AI, ET, the planet or whatever decided to get rid of us at any given time, it is probably caused by the plans of technocrats playing such games as creating AI.

Logically, why would ET consider the girl next door, or the shopkeeper down the road a threat to interstellar peace?

They wouldn't.

I think we are innocent, and the corporations and other collectives creating AI are probably the reason.

We are after all, kept in the dark about the big long range plans.

If we knew, we would probably throw the guilty parties to ET and go home. Probably why they want us all to fear ET.

The individual would see the technocrats as the problem and throw them to the wolves.