Just Answer One Question. "Why"?

I'm on my phone so sorry for the poor image link, but I feel the picture describes my feelings pretty well.

reply to post by sacgamer25


unfortunately it sounds to me like you're drifting off the rails of rationalism... and falling slightly into Fanaticism...

You will not forgive yourself for deliberate sin against yourself, when you had the foreknowledge not to. You will be worse off than before you had such knowledge.

Why wouldn't one forgive himself?

Perhaps another might not forgive you for "sinning against love"... but you don't know of a person "can not" forgive himself...

I changed the words believe in to obey. Although I think if you say you believe in Christ than you must obey him, otherwise you don't truly believe him. But I stand by the way I interpret this passage.

See this is why people quote scripture... for reinforcement of their theories... But when you change the words that are written you're being deceptive towards those that might not know better... These are the tactics of a false teacher...

Luke 12:10 Anyone who speaks against Christ will be forgiven and may still find Grace, the Spirit of Love & Forgiveness. However, anyone who doesn't obey the Spirit of Love will not find God's love, he will not receive forgiveness.

Exactly what I mean... Jesus didn't teach "grace" that was Paul which touted grace... Jesus didn't even use the word... And in a previous reply... many actually... you said specifically "Christ is the spirit of love"

SO speaking against Christ, and not obeying the spirit of love is the same thing...

And when you said they will not be forgiven... That is just incorrect....

Read the lords prayer... IF you forgive, you will be forgiven...

You're making up your own rules... that only apply in your own mind...

I know you have the best intentions... but when you start changing the words you might as well write your own book...

Originally posted by Cuervo
- Do you believe that your way is the only right way?

Speaking as a sort of mystical, new-agey pantheist, I would say yes; my way is the only right way for me. I am admittedly quite biased toward my own subjective view of spirituality. I came to my views through my own life experiences, listening to the views of believers of various faiths and incorporating some of their views after testing them against my internal moral compass.

- If yes, why do you believe that your way is the only way?

I feel that my way is the only moral and rational method of developing one's own system of belief. This is not to say that I believe my particular views fully encompass the whole truth and are infallible. One should never take the word of spiritual teachers at face value, but rather examine their teachings and test them. You may find that some of what they say is untrue, you may also find truth in their words. Take that truth and throw it in with the rest of your truths, repeat as necessary, and you may soon find you've got a solid and unshakeable volume of truth.

- Did you just answer that last question with scripture from your religious books?

No, but I could have.

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1 John 4:1

Do not treat prophecies with contempt but test them all; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil.

1 Thessalonians 5:20-23

Even though the Bible is not "my holy book", I still value it for its wisdom.

- If yes, did you do that because you can't answer it without using scripture?

Nope

- If you did not use scripture, could your answer apply to somebody from another faith? Could I use your answer and be correct about my faith?

Abso-freakin'-lutely.

reply to post by Akragon


Let me merely suggest that you don't understand what these verses mean.

Hebrews 6:4-6 4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.

2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

Grace = Unconditional love and forgiveness for all. Jesus did teach that the father loves and forgives all. Stop hating the word Grace, because you don't understand Paul. Saying that one cannot understand or feel Grace if they have not believed in it is a true statement. If I believe I am not forgiven for sin, then most assuredly in my mind, in my spirit, I am unforgiven.

We know that the father is faithful even to those who do not seek him, but without seeking him you cannot understand him. This is why Paul says it is necessary to believe in Grace, and it is, if you are to understand the gift you have been given.

You can believe me in a fantasy world, you can believe I am insane, although I am neither in fantasy or insane. I merely make the suggestion that there is a wisdom that can come to a man who has accepted Jesus Christ as savior that he cannot go against.

Peter, Paul and I all agree. To know the truth and then to fall away from the truth and go back to a life of sin, would be more than I would forgive myself for. If you do not feel this way it simply means that I have been given a different understanding than you.

I did pray to be held to the highest standard that God sets for a man when I prayed to be given the ability to teach. So I imagine if anyone truly has the desire to teach others, he should both obtain the knowledge to do so, and the wisdom to use such knowledge only for the good of others.

This is the standard that I believe that has been set for me, because of what I hope to accomplish. And I don't think it too much to ask of myself to always "turn the other cheek" like Christ commanded. Maybe things opposed to love still come up from time to time, but they are more a reminder of who I was and not a sign of who I am.

Since I am a son of God who believes that we have the power to overcome sin, I do indeed have the power I believe that I have. Since I have been given the power to overcome all obstacles to love, why would I still purposely put in obstacle of sin in my own way?

reply to post by Akragon


Dear Akragon,

You always ask the best questions even if we do not always agree on the answers.

reply to post by Akragon


I can only be a false teacher if I lead someone away from Christ.

Obey, believe in, they are the same for anyone who is a disciple of Christ.

Please show me where I have contradicted the Christ. Because although you don't believe my interpretation I believe it will be impossible for you to show me anything that I have said in my interpretation that is against Christ. I have even taken a passage that you believe is against Christ, and interpreted it in a way that agrees with Christ.

If Paul was truly an Apostle, and I know he was, then his words must not truly contradict the Christ. But rather it is only a poor interpretation of Paul that contradicts Christ. The reformation started with Martin Luther, who believed the Catholic Church to be the Anti-Christ. So why is it hard to believe that the movement that started with Martin Luther would not result in the correct interpretation?

All these things won't happen until the gospel is preached to the whole world. You know that Christianity in itself is anti-Christ so you must know that the gospel has yet to be preached to the whole world. I would go as far to say that most people who call themselves Christians have very little real understanding of Christ, because the church teaches, self-righteousness, judgment, Original Sin, and many other things that are false teaching.

Romans 10:14-15 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

Since those who call themselves Christians don’t know the Christ and those who call themselves Jews don't recognize their savior I would say that they have yet to hear the truth. Thus the Gospel has yet to be preached to the whole world.

reply to post by Cuervo


I just wanted to point something out to all who have participated in this thread. Paul speaks of a church in which all people actively discuss religion, within one boundary. We maintain love and discuss our religions without attacking them. Fully understanding that one's religion is personal and if it guides them to love than it is acceptable.

This is Paul's Church, a kind of open forum, where those of us who may be consider "elders" of sorts, merely because the length of time studying answer the questions of those who are still seeking. If one man's path to love worked for him than we should all want to understand why, instead of trying to convert.

When we look at the why and how someone found the spirit of love within it is marvelous. No two religions need to be the same, but all religion should point down the same path. It is only when one is obviously off the path, that we should try to interject our religion to help them better develop their own understanding.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Although I believe Paul was a Universalist who assumed everyone ascended to heaven after the physical body passes.

Christ = The Spirit of Love = The Love of Man = The love within a man = Heaven the dwelling place for God = God is within man and so is his son.

The Spirit of Love is alive in all who believe in and pursue love. If you believe in love the Christ is within.
This is what Paul believed, this is Paul's religion. This is also my religion. If you are interested this should clear up any supposed contradictions.

That is not Paul's message. Here's Paul's message...

Ephesians 2:5-9

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The faith Paul is talking about is FAITH IN CHRIST is that which leads to all things. He's saying that having faith in Christ is a gift in itself given to us by God.

edit on 8-6-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

Do not be preaching "faith alone.' Christ nor the Apostles taught faith alone. Here is the fella that did.

www.catholicthinker.net...

..."The doctrine of sola fide is an anti-Scriptural invention of one man, Martin Luther, who through out the teachings of the Apostles and the Catholic Church that Jesus Christ founded because of his personal confusion – his personal demons. This man went so far as to preach “sin boldly” to his followers, assuring them that none of their sins mattered – a teaching so grotesque and at odds with Scripture it is almost impossible to find greater madness. Such is the fruit of his twisted doctrine – a doctrine authored ultimately by the father of lies, who cackles with pleasure as souls descend into his grasp by believing they don’t have to obey the Lord to be saved."



See also www.catholic.com...



And www.catholic.com...



And www.scripturecatholic.com...

reply to post by colbe

Do not be preaching "faith alone.' Christ nor the Apostles taught faith alone. Here is the fella that did.

I understand what you're saying, but I used these verses to show that when Paul spoke to people he wasn't talking about a universal religion as Sacgamer keeps trying to claim. He spoke only of Christ.

When Paul visited the "Jews" and the Gentiles, he practiced their customs along with them, because the "Jews" kept practicing the Mosaic law even after Christ died, but these were the "Jews" who had been converted to Christianity, not the ones who hadn't. To make it sound like Paul was accepting of the Jews who didn't convert to Christ is misleading. Somewhere along the line, the disciples all decided that it was not a sin for the converted Jews to keep practicing their customs/laws.

Paul was very clear about the fact that faith led to repentance, obedience and good works. He never said that you only needed faith alone. However, true faith would lead people to do that which was needed. That is what Paul taught.

reply to post by sacgamer25

I just wanted to point something out to all who have participated in this thread. Paul speaks of a church in which all people actively discuss religion, within one boundary. We maintain love and discuss our religions without attacking them. Fully understanding that one's religion is personal and if it guides them to love than it is acceptable.

You do realize that when Paul was speaking to these people that they were all arguing about issues within Christianity, not other belief systems. Paul was speaking to the churches that they started. The churches that were already practicing Christianity.

This is the image I was trying to post earlier. It exemplifies my feelings regarding reliance on a higher power. None of us needs a god. We are all the progenitors of our own fates. You, sir. You. Right there. Yes, you. You are the key to your own door. You are the map, the compass, and the path. You are the obstacles and you are the shortcuts. You just have to open your eyes and walk.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

I just wanted to point something out to all who have participated in this thread. Paul speaks of a church in which all people actively discuss religion, within one boundary. We maintain love and discuss our religions without attacking them. Fully understanding that one's religion is personal and if it guides them to love than it is acceptable.

You do realize that when Paul was speaking to these people that they were all arguing about issues within Christianity, not other belief systems. Paul was speaking to the churches that they started. The churches that were already practicing Christianity.

You don't understand biblical Christianity; you only understand the modern churches version.

Biblical Christianity.
1. God unconditionally loves us
2. By the spirit of love all things were created
3. Free will is freedom to make choices.
4. Sin is using our free will against love.
5. All sin is forgiven, based solely on the fact that God unconditionally loves you.
6. We are all sons of God, and sin is to be defeated, so that love can reign on earth.
7. Hell is emotional separation from love
8. Heaven is the state of being at one with love
9. Anyone who pursues love will find heaven, the spirit of love, within.
10. The one, who finds the love within, realizes that the spirit is eternal, and thus can acknowledge their own immortality.

Throughout history, using our own inborn morality, men have come to these same conclusions apart from Christ. These are men who truly found righteousness through observation of self and environment. They become a law of their own; they obey the law of love merely because they have accepted love as the only emotion worth having.

Jesus Christ said he came to save the sinner not the righteous. He said that all have sinned, what he didn't teach is "original sin". So for the ones who did not believe in their own broken state, but rather believed in the call to be righteousness, they could become righteous apart from the words of Christ. Not because they do not believe his message, but because through meditation, prayer, and self reflection the spirit itself interceded on their behalf.

Thus the one who found the love within through self discovery found the same spirit as the one who found love through Christ.

So it is true only the sinner needs Christ, because the righteous, the truly enlightened, have already found him. He is the spirit of love. The one who finds the spirit of love within who is truly enlightened should be able to accept my religion even if they do not believe that the Spirit of Love within is Christ. Simply because they have received the Spirit of Love, one can know for certain that God considers them clean.

I was a sinner, who believed in the fall of man "original sin". I convinced myself that I was incapable of becoming like Christ. Because Christ said "sin no more" and my belief in "original sin", I was without the ability to follow Christ.

There are many verses in the bible that directly teach against "original sin", however it took me a long time to accept that these verses, that seemed to describe a life free from sin, that somehow seemed unobtainable to me. I tried church but they only reinforced my belief that I was born fallen, never to be free from sin, until after physical death.

When I finally submitted to myself that Christ died and was resurrected to prove that God did not consider me a sinner, but rather his son, was when I accepted that I was a son of God, created to overcome the sin of this world, that I was able to "see" sin for the first time. Once I was able to "see" sin for what it is, I was able to overcome it.

Jesus Christ provided a way out of sin for the sinner. The righteous, the truly enlightened, either accepted the path the Christ provided or found another path that lead to the same "Spirit of Love" that is within me.

It is impossible for the one who is not "enlightened" to lie about their "enlightenment". Not that they cannot lie to those who are themselves stuck in the confides of a sinful world, but they cannot lie to the ones who are truly "born again, enlightened". There are certain things that one cannot know or understand until they have been enlightened, born again, thus making it impossible to tell the lie.

If you do not understand that last bit, then I suggest you are still on your journey toward being truly born again. This is not to say that anyone is better than anyone else, because we are equally loved by the father, and he will reveal himself when you are ready. This is the only way; the decision is always up to the father.

The son can only interject for those who follow him. However some have found the "light" that do not need the physical body of Christ to save them, they have become one with Christ apart from the physical sacrifice, much like those who were filled with spirit, the profits.

Or do you still believe it impossible for someone to believe in and pursue love without knowing the physical body of Christ Jesus? Buddha, Gandhi and others who did not believe in the physical Christ, most definitely found and believed in the "the light within", "the love within", "The Christ within".

While many Christians sit at church each Sunday and "The Spirit of Love" says I don't know you. Meaning you don't pursue love, therefore love is not "in" you. Until you decide to pursue love Christ will continue to say "I don't know you".

I needed the death, and resurrection of Christ, and the subsequent message that was protected and handed to me by others who believed. But my religion need not be your religion to accept that the same "Spirit of Love" that is in me is also in you. Like I said the one without "The Spirit of Love" simply does not have the knowledge to lie to the one who has received "The Spirit of Love". Some things remain unknown until they become known. Once truth becomes known it can't be unknown.

reply to post by colbe


The fall of Man, Original sin, the inquisition, pedophilia and the cover up.

If Catholics are truly led by the Spirit of Christ, who is the Pope, the Vicar of Christ, how do you explain these things? Christ taught none of them, and the OT laws teach against all of these things.

The fall of man and original sin are anti-Christ, this should be enough to eliminate the claim that Catholicism continues the message of Christ who was without sin, and told those he healed to sin no more.

Coble, you are a son of God; there is no fall of man, no original sin. But Christ died and was raised to life for you to know that all your sins are forgiven, now sin no more. If you truly believe in the power of Christ to transform a man, be transformed, let go of your religion so you can hold onto Christ.

None of the rituals bring anyone closer to love, and God is love. His son is the Spirit of Love, if you want them "in" your life you must pursue love alone. You have staked your salvation on a set of rituals that do not fill the spirit with love. You should rather just love one another like Christ Commanded.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Here's what I believe in a nutshell...

Philippians 2:9-11

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The truth is, Ghandi didn't believe that Jesus Christ resurrected in order to make it possible for all of us to be able to experience eternal life with God/Jesus.

So, what do you believe is going to happen? Will every person preaching good works be resurrected and brought back during the time of the Millennium to come to a mutual understanding of who Jesus was or what? Will everyone who didn't understand who Jesus was be refined with fire like the Old Testament says of the Jews? What are your thoughts on this?

My belief is that everyone whether dead or alive will come to the realization about who Jesus was and what his purpose was on earth, but I'm not going to claim to know what God's definition of "righteous judgement" is until I face it myself to know what comes afterwards.

reply to post by sacgamer25


I'm not sure I understand what your hang up is regarding "original sin".

The truth is, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and there are no exceptions but for Christ. In the Bible, it's never been an excuse to keep sinning, so why do you have an issue with it?

Sacgamer, are you really going to try and convince us that since you've found Christ that you haven't sinned one time since? If you do, nobody is going to believe you. No, I am not excusing sin, I'm merely pointing out reality.

reply to post by sacgamer25

5. All sin is forgiven, based solely on the fact that God unconditionally loves you.

That's not what the Bible says. You must consign your life and destiny to "God", as well as believe in Jesus, in order to earn your salvation. The grace of Jesus only applies to believers and those who have purchased the premium package - that is to say, signed over the rights to everything they are.

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
I have my own question to ask. Why did you bother making this post when you already know the answer?

I only know my answer. I want your answer.

Cuervo, you should have called the Opening context title--JUST ANSWER 'AQuestion' "Why"?-- and everything would fall directly into place making sense.

reply to post by sacgamer25

5. All sin is forgiven, based solely on the fact that God unconditionally loves you.

You just got finished telling me "people that disobey the spirit of love will not be forgiven"

Which is it?

See what I mean when I said... Don't change the words?

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

5. All sin is forgiven, based solely on the fact that God unconditionally loves you.

You just got finished telling me "people that disobey the spirit of love will not be forgiven"

Which is it?

See what I mean when I said... Don't change the words?

How can you not see that sin done in the darkness is not the same as sin done in the light? If you are unaware of your ability to control your emotions, then you live in the darkness. How can one who has no control over their emotions possible be condemned any more than they already are. Those who cannot control their emotions cannot by nature continuously obey love. They have become sinners, thus they have admitted to not having control over their emotions. Therefore they cannot commit a sin against emotions, since they do not even understand what they are.

If you understand emotions, if you are in control of them, "enlightend", "born again", than you can "see" clearly that you posses control over your own emotions. The one who is "fully" aware and in "control" of his emotions has no excuse. I can no longer claim that I don't know if I claim to be "enlightened".

Understand even the "enlightened" could be ignorant in certain situations, but the truly "enlightened" will always accept when someone's wisdom has surpassed theirs and thus they adapt their religion to the one who is more "enlightened".

The one thing we seem to agree on is Christ was at minimum, the most "enlightened" individual to ever walk the earth. And even if he is not real, someone was who had a perfect understanding of love wrote this story. And we can believe that the words in the 4 gospels tell men the truth, if they would just open their ears enough to hear.

There is no contradiction; those who have control must keep themselves in control, so that others may believe in the ability to control.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

5. All sin is forgiven, based solely on the fact that God unconditionally loves you.

That's not what the Bible says. You must consign your life and destiny to "God", as well as believe in Jesus, in order to earn your salvation. The grace of Jesus only applies to believers and those who have purchased the premium package - that is to say, signed over the rights to everything they are.

And how heavy is that yoke to bear. Im feeling as if I am "ATLAS". I cannot consign my life and destiny to God or Jesus to placate an invisible thing. Grace is for the believers as you say and have (bought the premium Virgin Tour). Signing over rights equates to "A SELLING OF ONES SOUL" Carnival Cruise Lines does not dump you in the Figi Islands capsized for you to drown, or be unexpectedly BABTIZED in whos name exactly, John, Jesus or the Midwife that cleaned up your birth water.