Just Answer One Question. "Why"?

Don't make me turn this cosmic car around, guys. Stay buckled in and keep your hands to yourselves.

Just got to say that I see three people saying very similar things. There is much about what each of you said that I've learned from in this thread.

Originally posted by AQuestion

Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

edit on 8-6-2013 by Cuervo because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
I have my own question to ask. Why did you bother making this post when you already know the answer?

I only know my answer. I want your answer.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
That sort of thing caused me to reject the Gospel of Luke from my personal New Testament canon.

You guys can do that?! If so, why not just get rid of that Paul nonsense while you're at it? We would all be better for it.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Of course, otherwise why would I believe it? Everyone should examine themselves as to why they believe something and to be alarmed if it is because 'everyone else' does.

- If yes, why do you believe that your way is the only way?

There should be some core to your belief that is absolutely true, where to think otherwise would be just wrong.

edit on 8-6-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

But that doesn't answer why you believe it is the true one when the others are not. That only tells me why you have a belief but not why it is the belief that it is.

It is like if you were to ask me why I thought the color "blue" was the only color that is ethical to wear and you, of course, would ask "why". If my response was "because everybody needs a color to lord over others" then that doesn't really answer your question, does it?

reply to post by Cuervo

- Do you believe that your way is the only right way?

When traversing a city, obviously there is no wrong way except any way leading away from your destination, but even that isn't wrong unless you are wrong for being silly about it. However, there are some paths that will obviously be quicker than others, and some paths that are more "scenic" than others. Some pose their own trials and difficulties, and some are just straight cut through and through. It all depends on what you want out of your journey, and no one can tell you that you are wrong for that.

Short answer: my way is not the only way, but it is the best way for me. I'm sure that answer is universally applicable.

reply to post by Cuervo

why not just get rid of that Paul nonsense while you're at it?

In the OP you wrote:

When a person confronts me about religion I am never the detractor. Never the one who tries to pull them away from their beliefs.

So is it only Paul that you think is nonsense? Is it only Paul that you must be the detractor from? Have you analyzed why?

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by Cuervo

why not just get rid of that Paul nonsense while you're at it?

In the OP you wrote:

When a person confronts me about religion I am never the detractor. Never the one who tries to pull them away from their beliefs.

So is it only Paul that you think is nonsense? Is it only Paul that you must be the detractor from? Have you analyzed why?

Touche. But what I did is question you because you are throwing out some of your bible. I figured, if you can do that, why not do this? And no, it's not just Paul that I don't believe but I believe that Paul is a very negative attribute to your bible when thrown into the mix of an evolved society. The OT stuff, you guys can just casually brush off because it's not the NT... I get that and I'm grateful you guys do (for the most part).

I'm really not detracting. If it hits you that way then maybe this thread is good for you. Detracting is trying to get somebody to lose their faith. What I'm doing is trying to get you to learn more about your own.

reply to post by Cuervo

First off, I'm a polytheist like you are. The Bible is only mine because all things are mine, whatever I can freely get my hands on.

1 Cor 3…21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; 22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; 23And you are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

I believe that Paul is a very negative attribute to your bible when thrown into the mix of an evolved society.

Paul did not invent Judaic Messianism, that goes back to Babylonian exile days, 400s BCE. Paul merely extends to Gentiles full membership into Judaic Messianism.

My problem with Paul is that he was still thinking in terms of post-exile prophets. Popular propaganda would like to remove Paul with his equality for all, and yet retain Judaic Messianism with non-citizen (or second class) status for Gentiles and women.

When Paul is attacked, you should ask yourself why. Do the attackers attack because of openness to Gentiles? Or do the attackers attack because of Judaic Messianism? There are two groups.

I personally do not support Judaic Messianism

reply to post by Cuervo

That only tells me why you have a belief but not why it is the belief that it is.

I have a belief because I actually think that it is true.
What I see as the problem about what people think that they "believe in" is that they don't have a rational reason for "believing" in it but they accept it as a sort of rule of "proper" behavior where not accepting it may make you a social outcast, even if it only applies to a small social group.
Some people put a lot of importance in that as a way of having a feeling of self worth.

reply to post by Cuervo

You guys can do that?! If so, why not just get rid of that Paul nonsense while you're at it? We would all be better for it.

I think so.
Too many people are pressured into believing that the Bible is an "all or nothing" proposition.
I think that is ridiculous, to feel locked into a decision that was arrived at by a particular group that had a political victory in the 'religion wars' in the fourth century.
On its face, Luke and Acts do not meet the criteria for canon acceptance because it does not even claim to be of Apostolic origin.
As for Paul, I go with the latest scholarship as to the likely authorship of books of the New Testament purported to be by Paul, and reject 8 or 9 of them from the ordinary NT canon.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by Cuervo
The Bible is only mine because all things are mine, whatever I can freely get my hands on.

Daaaaamn, I like that answer.

As to the rest of what you said, I'm too ignorant of the bible to truly understand your stances on Paul. When I speak of him in a negative light, it is from a base level understanding. I compare what he says with what Jesus says and I see a huge disconnect.

reply to post by Cuervo

I compare what he says with what Jesus says and I see a huge disconnect.

Jesus was at a unique time and place. His moral teachings challenged the validity of not only Moses, but also the popular teachings of Moses "get arounds".

When Jesus said, "No man comes to the Father but by me", that was most likely true for that time and place. Is it true now? I tend to doubt that.

When Paul, having taken seriously the challenge Jesus made to Moses and the experts in the Law, taught "Jesus alone", was he correct to do so in a more advanced integrated society of competing philosophies? I tend to doubt that too. He did challenge Jewish hegemony of overlordship, which I do approve. Yet he never got beyond post-exile Judaic teaching. That, I find makes me very sad.

Now that that is out of the way, I will address the OP questions:

- Do you believe that your way is the only right way?

Yes, because I didn't see anyone else doing what needed to be done.

- If yes, why do you believe that your way is the only way?

Because I chose it from the perspective of seeing what needed to be done.

- Did you just answer that last question with scripture from your religious books?

I don't think so.

I don't think that the rest of the questions apply.

As far as I know I am the only person on Earth today that has my religion. I therefore am not beholden to my followers to keep any part unchanged. I change it as often as I think necessary in order to do what I see needs doing. I inadvertently find myself on a warrior's path. So I must be the best polemicist that I can manage to be. It gets rather complicated.

Maybe this will help: Someone started a thread asking what song personifies your spirit. My response is here

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

If you truly believe everything past love is religion then you wouldn't believe the bible is the work of a loving god.

Cognitive dissonance, look it up. It means holding two contradictory beliefs as being true. The bible is much more than just love, MUCH more, which means it is religion.

You contradicted yourself AGAIN. Lol. You say that your "religion" is compatible with mine, then go on to say that anything beyond love is religion. Do you dislike religion or are you part of one? Make up your mind.

By the way, I am not part of a religion, I have told you that NUMEROUS times. Do you not listen or what? Geez dude, clean your ears out.

edit on 8-6-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Your interpretation of the bible is against love, mine is not. Please stop accusing me without at least trying to understand me.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by AQuestion

 

Because there is no truth in this world. Look around you, what do you see? Truth? If so, you have blinders on.

Let us compare our understanding, our religion.

You say there is no truth, you have also at times shown a more depressing depiction of how you see the world. Then you say your way is the right way. So although you say you believe that love is the right way, you don't by your own words even consider it possible to love. Maybe you believe that you have the ability to love, but you have no belief in a greater power that can save those who are lost.

Essentially you have created a religion for yourself, that is hopeless and without truth. Since by your own words you prove that you believe there is no truth and the possibility of finding said truth is without possibility in your view.

I am man who believes that the all things have happened for the purpose of love. To elevate man to the state of truly loving one another. I believe in the Christ, the Spirit of Love, who at the authority of the father will come to anyone who seeks love. It is the belief in the supernatural and the love and care that our father has for us that makes me believe in the supernatural, the messianic age.

I am at one with my religion. For me it is both possible for me to love and for everyone else to love me. I hold that love is not too great or elusive for anyone. And by belief in the supernatural love, Christ Jesus, I believe in a time where all men will love one another. It is my greatest hope and belief that this is possible here and now. But if I am wrong than I am certain I will ascend to this place with Christ after this life.

You believe in a world where you have found a purpose, but you see that everyone else is lost and incapable of finding purpose.

In modern psychology, cognitive dissonance is the discomfort experienced when simultaneously holding two or more conflicting cognitions: ideas, beliefs, values or emotional reactions. In a state of dissonance, people may sometimes feel "disequilibrium": frustration, hunger, dread, guilt, anger, embarrassment, anxiety, etc.

reply to post by sacgamer25


If that works for you, then more power to you. Just remember two things: 1) consider all people equally in your deliberations, and 2) you can be your own miracle. There is nothing you need that you cannot give yourself or obtain for yourself.

You are not helpless. You are not worthless. You are as perfect and powerful as you need to be. Remember this. Believe it.

reply to post by Cuervo

- Do you believe that your way is the only right way?

As a Christian, yes.

- If yes, why do you believe that your way is the only way?

Yes, because the Bible teaches it and because I've never experienced anything that should lead me to believe differently.

- Did you just answer that last question with scripture from your religious books?

Yes and No.

- If yes, did you do that because you can't answer it without using scripture?

No. The power of the Holy Spirit can be found through reading scripture, but it doesn't mean much if you're not able to actually experience it for yourself.

- If you did not use scripture, could your answer apply to somebody from another faith? Could I use your answer and be correct about my faith?

That's pretty much the way it works today, doesn't it? Everyone has a personal experience that leads them to believe that their way is the truth.

Now we just have to compare our religious books and experiences together.

Does your religion have a book?
Does your religious book teach you the importance of said religious book and how it came to be and why?
Are there other books to back up claims in your religious book?
Does it contain prophecy?
Have those prophecies come true?
Have there been large numbers of people in your religion/faith who were willing to die for what they believed in?

I personally have a problem with "Christians" picking apart the Bible. I think it's sad that people don't give enough credit to their God or think that He has the power to keep such scripture intact and to be able to override the power of men in this one particular area of writing. There's nothing that Paul taught that contradicted what Jesus taught. The God we saw in the Old Testament is the same one we see in the New Testament, but people don't want to believe it. People today only want to believe the parts they want to believe and they want to teach others to do the same. This is how it gets divided. This is how the truth get buried and hidden.

Here's what I definitely see in the world around me....

2 Timothy 4:3-4

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by Cuervo
The Bible is only mine because all things are mine, whatever I can freely get my hands on.

Daaaaamn, I like that answer.

As to the rest of what you said, I'm too ignorant of the bible to truly understand your stances on Paul. When I speak of him in a negative light, it is from a base level understanding. I compare what he says with what Jesus says and I see a huge disconnect.

edit on 8-6-2013 by Cuervo because: (no reason given)

You seem quite open so I will try to give you something. Not to try to change your religion, because your religion appears to lead you to love already. But so that you may understand how someone could be lead to the truth by Paul.

People accuse Paul of creating the Idol Worship religion centered around "Original Sin". Paul believed that Christ Jesus was the Holy Spirit, better understood I believe as The Spirit of Love.

If you can accept Paul's religion without judgment then you can see how he agrees with Christ. When he says things like you must worship the Christ. What he is saying is you must pursue and obey the Spirit of Love that is within you. So if the bible says that without Christ you are condemned, what it is saying is that if you do not possess the Spirit of Love than you are without love. If you do not believe in love, than you will always be condemned to be without love. Although I believe Paul was a Universalist who assumed everyone ascended to heaven after the physical body passes.

Christ = The Spirit of Love = The Love of Man = The love within a man = Heaven the dwelling place for God = God is within man and so is his son.

The Spirit of Love is alive in all who believe in and pursue love. If you believe in love the Christ is within.
This is what Paul believed, this is Paul's religion. This is also my religion. If you are interested this should clear up any supposed contradictions.

reply to post by Deetermined

I personally have a problem with "Christians" picking apart the Bible. I think it's sad that people don't give enough credit to their God or think that He has the power to keep such scripture intact and to be able to override the power of men in this one particular area of writing.

It sounds like what you are saying is that if someone considers God to be all-powerful and all-loving, and then concludes that He hypothetically could have (according to your definition of God and your ideas about how the world works) done things to have a book that is properly Him just talking through human writers, and if you believe that such a thing is really something that we need, then we should go ahead and take the leap of faith in believing that it did happen just like that.

reply to post by Deetermined

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

That is universally applicable. It's more a quote of convenience than a quote of practicality. An idea I had that no one has bothered to refute:

Has it ever occurred to anyone that:

1. Perhaps Satan and God are bound by rules similar to the prime directive of the Star Fleet Command in Star Trek.

In the universe of Star Trek, the Prime Directive, Starfleet's General Order number 1, is the most prominent guiding principle of the United Federation of Planets. The Prime Directive dictates that there can be no interference with the internal development of alien civilizations.

2. Satan, being the evil one, had no qualms about breaking the rules - in the process, painting himself as his counterpart and God as the one with the corrupt nature.

3. God, in keeping with his rules, is unwilling to directly violate the code in order to correct the damage inflicted by Satan's deception and instead sends messengers to spread the truth in the form of "false prophets".

4. Satan would want to encourage ignorance and division in order to ensure conquest, while God would understand exactly how we work and would encourage us to make mistakes in order to learn to fly.

5. One of the two has never been able to tell his story from his own mouth. Out of the two, who is most likely to fear the word of the other? And therefore, who is most likely to place all the attention on himself in order to limit opportunity for competition?

6. One of the two is a fine liar, but the thing about lies is, words and actions are set apart by their meaning. One may claim to tell the truth, but the truth is in how they act. One of the two has made promises in exchange for power; one of the two has demonstrated love through cruelty; one of the two has painted obeisance as humility; one of the two has inconsistently demonstrated their priorities, as one would when balancing agendas - one for appearance, one for profit.

Psychology at its finest. Just something I wanted to throw out there.

Originally posted by Deetermined
Now we just have to compare our religious books and experiences together.

Does your religion have a book?

Mine has several. It's an evolving religion, one for the folks and one that never accepted the priest class. It's the oldest religion there is and also the newest. As far as the gods I believe in, their oldest texts are what much of the bible is derived from. In fact, I actually reference the bible in my personal path occasionally. It's as much a part of my history as it is a Christian's.

But does it have a book that every practitioner references universally? Not at all. That's a good thing in my eyes.

Originally posted by Deetermined
Does your religious book teach you the importance of said religious book and how it came to be and why?

Some do, yes. But virtually none of them discourage you from exploring other books. If they did, I'd probably not read them with much confidence.

Originally posted by Deetermined
Are there other books to back up claims in your religious book?

Yeah. Many. Some ancient, some contemporary.

Originally posted by Deetermined
Does it contain prophecy?

Originally posted by Deetermined
Have those prophecies come true?

Most adherents to witchcraft have personal prophecies and, at least for me, they come true. I read books to know what happened, not to know what will happen. Divination is a large part of what I do and believe. Books that I have read that have predictions are hit and miss, much like the bible. Unless you count prophesies that came true within the context of the actual texts but that's kind of like cheating. For example, I do not count Jesus being born as proof of any fulfillment because they are two events in the same books. If it were proof, you wouldn't have Jews today.

Originally posted by Deetermined
Have there been large numbers of people in your religion/faith who were willing to die for what they believed in?

Many have. Over and over. Some still do in Africa. The "willingness" doesn't really come into it.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

If that works for you, then more power to you. Just remember two things: 1) consider all people equally in your deliberations, and 2) you can be your own miracle. There is nothing you need that you cannot give yourself or obtain for yourself.

You are not helpless. You are not worthless. You are as perfect and powerful as you need to be. Remember this. Believe it.

edit on 8-6-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Thank you, that actually means a lot coming from you.

Since I hold that God is in complete control of the decisions placed in front of all men it becomes very easy for me to empathize with you. Because I hold to the belief that likely if I was born you and you were born me, I would become exactly who you became and you would have become exactly what I became.

I think we are all created equal in a spiritual since, hence everyone is a part of the body of Christ. Meaning at least we are all equally necessary in the process, meaning no one should lord over anyone else.

I believe religion should be left a personal experience, where people are free to think and debate. But I do hold to one truth, love is the way. Any choice that one makes against love is against God.
And the fact that we are, is enough of a miracle for me to believe in miracles.