Just Answer One Question. "Why"?

There are plenty of beautiful threads written on ATS about what draws us to the religious paths that we walk and why we believe what we do. I fully respect that. You believe what you want and I believe what I want and we both go to our respective afterlives (for the sake of argument).

However, what I don't understand is the arrogance that comes from people insisting that your path is wrong while theirs is the correct one (and ONLY correct one, at that). It's such a strange thing. Not only do they expect you to respect their religion but they will insist that you are going to hell at the same time.

I guess where my disconnect is and where I just can't relate is the absolutism about the whole thing. I mean, I believe what I do and part of my belief is to support others in theirs. When a person confronts me about religion I am never the detractor. Never the one who tries to pull them away from their beliefs. I may question the ethics behind some of the doctrines people adhere to but I don't like to tell them it's false. My kind has always been accused of making others "back slide" or question their own faith so I like to play the opposite role to a fault just to lose the stigma. Quite the contrary, I fully endorse any person's beliefs if they provide them with spiritual food and enlightenment.

So really... why the condemnation? Why the need to remind others of their place of torment created by your god? Do you realize that those words are hollow to the rest of us? They mean nothing to those outside your circle. You would do better to lead by example and show others how wonderful the adherents of various religions can be (I know they can be).

- Do you believe that your way is the only right way?
- If yes, why do you believe that your way is the only way?
- Did you just answer that last question with scripture from your religious books?
- If yes, did you do that because you can't answer it without using scripture?
- If you did not use scripture, could your answer apply to somebody from another faith? Could I use your answer and be correct about my faith?

Again, I'm not trying to get any religion to jump on, nor get jumped by, anybody else. I just want moments of reflection. Honestly.

reply to post by Cuervo

I have been reading the threads on this site for quite a while now, and I don't recall ever hearing a Christian tell anyone that they were going to Hell. My memory isn't quite what it used to be though, maybe you could show us what you're talking about?

Originally posted by Bone75
reply to post by Cuervo

 

I have been reading the threads on this site for quite a while now, and I don't recall ever hearing a Christian tell anyone that they were going to Hell. My memory isn't quite what it used to be though, maybe you could show us what you're talking about?

It's in general and the issue isn't specifically the words "you are going to hell". It's the implication and the insistence that their way it the right way.

The majority of the monotheists here aren't like that. I know you know what I'm talking about. It's not even something that bothers me very often. This isn't even a rant.

It's an honest set of questions to those who do act that way. It's also not pointed to Christians only. I just took out all references to any specific faiths just to clarify that distinction.

Originally posted by Bone75
reply to post by Cuervo

 

I don't recall ever hearing a Christian tell anyone that they were going to Hell.

I've seen it several times though I couldn't point to it because I don't bookmark such things.

Some nice questions OP. I'll be watching with interest hoping it remains civil.
No I'm not a believer, each to his own I say.

Originally posted by VoidHawk
I'll be watching with interest hoping it remains civil.
No I'm not a believer, each to his own I say.

You just pointed out why I've never written this thread before. It's not one that deeply offends me but it's honestly something I think people would benefit from if they question their own reasons for their beliefs.

If a person can answer those questions correctly, their faith will be more solid than it has ever been before. I can answer those questions by just answering "no" to the very first one.

Originally posted by Cuervo
I just took out all references to any specific faiths just to clarify that distinction.

edit on 7-6-2013 by Cuervo because: clarification

Then disregard my post as I was responding to your original content... not the edited version.

reply to post by Cuervo

Do you believe that your way is the only right way?

That reminds me of a chap who lives local to me. Often when in town shopping one will hear "THERES ONLY ONE TRUE GOD" bellowing across the store. At the checkout there'll be a long line of customers because this guys captured the girl behind the till and he's giving her a lecture on "the sweet baby Jesus".
I just know that your question "Do you believe that your way is the only right way?" would be pointless.

Slightly off topic but whats your view on Richard Dawkins? Not being a believer myself I used to like listening to him but lately I've come to the opinion that he's a trouble maker.

reply to post by Cuervo



Religion is mostly a regional thing. If you live in certain parts of the world your surroundings usually dictate what religion you practice. This is one of the reasons why I don't understand "holier than thou" attitudes some have with their beliefs. Chances are the only reason they believe what they do is because of the part of the world they live in. It's learned behavior to act like you know for sure that your way is the only way.

My answer to your first question is a big NO. I'm not sure if anyone has a full grasp on what's really occurring no matter what their ego says.

reply to post by Cuervo


Dear Cuervo,

LOL. Some good points; but, I think you are unfair to only target believer. I have had non-believers on this site tell me I believe in Jebus, that Christians are stupid, incapable of logical thinking and have even been told that we should all die and that the world would be better off without us. This issue is not for believers or non-believers, it is for bigots versus non-bigots. Jerks versus tolerance. So, I have a slight disagreement with your starting premise; however, I want to attempt to answer your questions as I believe you meant them sincerely until I discover otherwise.

So really... why the condemnation? Why the need to remind others of their place of torment created by your god? Do you realize that those words are hollow to the rest of us? They mean nothing to those outside your circle. You would do better to lead by example and show others how wonderful the adherents of various religions can be (I know they can be). - Do you believe that your way is the only right way? - If yes, why do you believe that your way is the only way? - Did you just answer that last question with scripture from your religious books? - If yes, did you do that because you can't answer it without using scripture? - If you did not use scripture, could your answer apply to somebody from another faith? Could I use your answer and be correct about my faith? Again, I'm not trying to get any religion to jump on, nor get jumped by, anybody else. I just want moments of reflection. Honestly.

Let me try and rephrase your questions a bit. "Why the condemnation?", well, I don't condemn people for not believing and I am a Christian. As for those who are believers and non-believers who condemn others for having different views, I think that should be obvious. Fear. There are Atheists who fear that believers may be right and believers who fear their hopes may be in vain. That is the uncertainty factor over the most important choice we make in life, the one that effects after life. This next comment is in regards to what I will call christians in name only. There are those who believer that "they" can save others, they cannot, only God can. We as Christians are to have an answer for the hope that lies within us. Some believe that by "saving" others they can make up for their own failings, they cannot, salvation comes by faith.

1. Do I believe that my "way" is the only way? That is really a vague question. My "way" was described by Jesus, to love God with all my heart and my neighbor as myself. Yes; but, not in the manner you think. The name of God means universe and the name Jesus Christ means God's forgiveness or salvation. Loving the universe and loving others as being as important and imperfect as ourselves is the heart of love, the heart of Jesus if you will. If you have no love in your heart and only think about yourself then it is not condemnation to give you what you seek, a universe of only you. You see hell is not a place it is an awareness, it is eternal separation from God. In the end it is a choice and you don't have to say God's name in perfect Hebrew to decide.

2. No, I did not answer it with scripture per se. I answered your question in a conversational manner although I paraphrased a scripture, not to prove a point; but, to explain what the bible did say.

3. Could people use my answer and apply it to their own beliefs? I don't know, it would depend on whether or not they believed in love being the answer and consequences for who we choose to be.

If I may now make some of my own statements and questions. We either live for eternity with consciousness of us or we do not. Which do you believe? The second part to that is do you think the answer matters?

I could let you answer that and then ask the follow ups; but, I will give you them all at once. No tricks up my sleeve. If you believed that you could save people from hell, would you try? I am not agreeing with the methods many use, I am asking a sincere question to help you to understand part of some peoples efforts. Personally, I don't believe you can scare people into true love and that is why I believe many who call themselves believers are not truly saved, they seek to scare people into "beliefs" rather than live a life of love and let others ask them why they live such lives.

Now I will tell you what I tell our congregation on those days when I preach. Going to church one hour a week does not make you a Christian, it makes you a church goer. What you do the rest of the week is what truly makes you a Christian. Many will come calling his name and he will say he never knew them because they did not show love to their fellow man. Should either believers or non-believers be rewarded for being selfish and stuck up? Peace.

reply to post by VoidHawk


Dear VoidHawk,

Slightly off topic but whats your view on Richard Dawkins? Not being a believer myself I used to like listening to him but lately I've come to the opinion that he's a trouble maker.

I liked your answer. I hope you read my response to the OP. Basically, I said whether they are Atheists or believers, a jerk is a jerk.

Originally posted by VoidHawk
Slightly off topic but whats your view on Richard Dawkins? Not being a believer myself I used to like listening to him but lately I've come to the opinion that he's a trouble maker.

If you asked Richard Dawkins if he thought that his way was the only right way, what do you think he would say? He is the same in my eyes. Very opinionated and closed-minded. When a person cuts their own spirituality out of their lives so much that they can't possibly see anything beyond what can be measured, I don't even know how to relate to that person.

To me, that type of person is no more helpful than the religious person who can't see science because their chosen beliefs deny basic facts. Both extremes are dangerous and lazy.

As I mentioned in another thread, when I think of "scientist", I don't think of Richard Dawkins, I think of Pythagoras.

Originally posted by AQuestion
1. Do I believe that my "way" is the only way? That is really a vague question. My "way" was described by Jesus, to love God with all my heart and my neighbor as myself. Yes; but, not in the manner you think. The name of God means universe and the name Jesus Christ means God's forgiveness or salvation. Loving the universe and loving others as being as important and imperfect as ourselves is the heart of love, the heart of Jesus if you will. If you have no love in your heart and only think about yourself then it is not condemnation to give you what you seek, a universe of only you. You see hell is not a place it is an awareness, it is eternal separation from God. In the end it is a choice and you don't have to say God's name in perfect Hebrew to decide.

2. No, I did not answer it with scripture per se. I answered your question in a conversational manner although I paraphrased a scripture, not to prove a point; but, to explain what the bible did say.

3. Could people use my answer and apply it to their own beliefs? I don't know, it would depend on whether or not they believed in love being the answer and consequences for who we choose to be.

Excellent answers! I was hoping to get some good answers from a Christian that confronted the questions head-on. I would say that your answer #3 would be a resounding "yes", though. Not everybody could use your words but enough could. That alone means that the answer to your #1 is ultimately "no".

I am glad that you answered as you did and on page one, no less. You were actually one of the ones I had in mind when thinking of who might be able to answer these questions honestly. Thanks.

Originally posted by AQuestion
If I may now make some of my own statements and questions. We either live for eternity with consciousness of us or we do not. Which do you believe? The second part to that is do you think the answer matters?

Yes, I believe we are eternal (I'd say "I know" but that goes against the spirit of this thread). My beliefs put us in a staging area (sometimes, some of us call it "Summerland") much like a green room before you go on to be interviewed by Conan O'Brian. This can take several decades or centuries or, in some rare cases, only months.

The second part? No. I do not think it matters if somebody else believes as I do. They'll still end up in the same place. It is their actions, love and their lessons that will determine the quality of life on the other side, not their good luck or fortune of being born into a Christian family or a Muslim or Jew, etc.

Originally posted by AQuestion
I could let you answer that and then ask the follow ups; but, I will give you them all at once. No tricks up my sleeve. If you believed that you could save people from hell, would you try?

Man, that's tough. It's really really hard to put myself in shoes of a person who even believes in a hell. But, I'll suspend disbelief for a second, heh heh. If (IF) there was some horrible place on the other side that people went to for simply overlooking a spiritual option or religion, even if they never heard of it... then yes. Yes, I'd try to save them. But I'd also be making sure I was correct and really asking myself some deep soul-searching questions before I started scaring people into kneeling for my brand of dogma. But, yeah. I probably would. Good questions.

reply to post by Cuervo


Dear Cuervo,

Excellent answers! I was hoping to get some good answers from a Christian that confronted the questions head-on. I would say that your answer #3 would be a resounding "yes", though. Not everybody could use your words but enough could. That alone means that the answer to your #1 is ultimately "no". I am glad that you answered as you did and on page one, no less. You were actually one of the ones I had in mind when thinking of who might be able to answer these questions honestly. Thanks.

I am glad that you thought I might give an honest question. You should find some comfort in knowing that I ask the questions you asked and even tougher ones to our congregation. Though, I do disagree with your categorization of my answer #1. The answer is yes. You do not get "salvation" if you do not love others, you get what you want and that is to be alone and God of your consciousness and awareness.

The bible says in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. This truly challenges most people's understanding so they just ignore what it means. If God's name means the universe then in the beginning of whatever was God's understanding that he was the universe. Consider that, it makes the mind reel. After giving himself or herself (I see God as all genders if he is all) a definition of self, he then decided to populate the universe with different objects and beings. To truly create a universe with hope, the individual creations would have different levels of understanding and test the boundaries of what he could create in that moment. I believe as the universe grows so does God.

There are those who say that God does not grow; but, they cannot answer this simple question. If God always was then what does God mean when it says that "In the beginning"?

Originally posted by Cuervo
There are plenty of beautiful threads written on ATS about what draws us to the religious paths that we walk and why we believe what we do. I fully respect that. You believe what you want and I believe what I want and we both go to our respective afterlives (for the sake of argument).

However, what I don't understand is the arrogance that comes from people insisting that your path is wrong while theirs is the correct one (and ONLY correct one, at that). It's such a strange thing. Not only do they expect you to respect their religion but they will insist that you are going to hell at the same time.

I guess where my disconnect is and where I just can't relate is the absolutism about the whole thing. I mean, I believe what I do and part of my belief is to support others in theirs. When a person confronts me about religion I am never the detractor. Never the one who tries to pull them away from their beliefs. I may question the ethics behind some of the doctrines people adhere to but I don't like to tell them it's false. My kind has always been accused of making others "back slide" or question their own faith so I like to play the opposite role to a fault just to lose the stigma. Quite the contrary, I fully endorse any person's beliefs if they provide them with spiritual food and enlightenment.

So really... why the condemnation? Why the need to remind others of their place of torment created by your god? Do you realize that those words are hollow to the rest of us? They mean nothing to those outside your circle. You would do better to lead by example and show others how wonderful the adherents of various religions can be (I know they can be).

- Do you believe that your way is the only right way?
- If yes, why do you believe that your way is the only way?
- Did you just answer that last question with scripture from your religious books?
- If yes, did you do that because you can't answer it without using scripture?
- If you did not use scripture, could your answer apply to somebody from another faith? Could I use your answer and be correct about my faith?

Again, I'm not trying to get any religion to jump on, nor get jumped by, anybody else. I just want moments of reflection. Honestly.

edit on 7-6-2013 by Cuervo because: Coffee...

I do believe that there is only "one way", but I believe it may look and feel different for everyone.

The way is love, the path to heaven is to love one another, and the only thing that brings joy into life is love. Our religions may all be personal but if love is "In" the heart than we are going the same way.

It is only when one feels disconnected from the love within that they are in need of religion. Because if one is connected to love one will have no need for religion, for their testimony will become their religion.

Christ is my religion but it need not be yours for us to be on the path of love together.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Dear sacgamer25,

First of all I gave you a star and I like quite a lot of what you said; but, see some things slightly differently. I don't argue over minutia so please view this as a question and comment and attempt to delve deeper into exactly where we may agree or see things differently.

I do believe that there is only "one way", but I believe it may look and feel different for everyone. The way is love, the path to heaven is to love one another, and the only thing that brings joy into life is love. Our religions may all be personal but if love is "In" the heart than we are going the same way. It is only when one feels disconnected from the love within that they are in need of religion. Because if one is connected to love one will have no need for religion, for their testimony will become their religion. Christ is my religion but it need not be yours for us to be on the path of love together.

God is love that is true; but, God is also an all knowing being with a personality if you will. Maybe not a personality in the way we think of that; but, an individually sentient being as unique as any of us. I see Christ as a human living example of the greatest love that a human can have for Jesus was also human. I do not see Christ as a "religion", I see Jesus as an understanding of love in human form. This may seem like semantics; but, I cannot depersonalize Jesus into being just an emotion. I think we may have a misunderstanding of each others definitions rather than a disagreement.

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Dear sacgamer25,

First of all I gave you a star and I like quite a lot of what you said; but, see some things slightly differently. I don't argue over minutia so please view this as a question and comment and attempt to delve deeper into exactly where we may agree or see things differently.

I do believe that there is only "one way", but I believe it may look and feel different for everyone. The way is love, the path to heaven is to love one another, and the only thing that brings joy into life is love. Our religions may all be personal but if love is "In" the heart than we are going the same way. It is only when one feels disconnected from the love within that they are in need of religion. Because if one is connected to love one will have no need for religion, for their testimony will become their religion. Christ is my religion but it need not be yours for us to be on the path of love together.

God is love that is true; but, God is also an all knowing being with a personality if you will. Maybe not a personality in the way we think of that; but, an individually sentient being as unique as any of us. I see Christ as a human living example of the greatest love that a human can have for Jesus was also human. I do not see Christ as a "religion", I see Jesus as an understanding of love in human form. This may seem like semantics; but, I cannot depersonalize Jesus into being just an emotion. I think we may have a misunderstanding of each others definitions rather than a disagreement.

Jesus was very human in his teachings and he was human. He even says that we were born to become like him. Jesus says that if you have seen me you have seen the father. So what I believe by this quote and Paul's subsequent worship of Christ is Christ is the perfect representation of God's love. Like a mirror that reflects God's love. So when Christ said we could become like him, I believe that we can also reflect God's love.

Jesus also tells his disciples that the father will send the spirit in his name. The Holy Spirit, I believe can also be thought of as the Spirit of Love. If the Holy Spirit comes in the name of Christ, than to me that means that Christ is indeed claiming to be the Holy Spirit.

What this means to me is that Christ was made for the purpose of teaching love; he was created to be the teacher. We were created to learn from the teacher until a time in which we will become like the teacher.

This is both bound in earthly terms and spiritual terms. So I see Jesus as the man who suffered death and resurrection for our benefit, but I also see him as the Spirit of Love that is within man, the voice inside that urges us to do the right thing. When we learn to listen to the Spirit of Love we become one with the Spirit of Love.

Call it baptized by the spirit, born again, or enlightened. They all speak of the same experience, assuming one has truly encountered the Spirit of Love with a changed heart.

You see to believe in Christ within as the Spirit of Love, God has given me both a body and spirit to worship as my king. Love is my God as is he yours and it is the Spirit of Love, the son of God, Christ Jesus that guides us through our journey.

We are very similar in belief.

And although I agree that God is at least more than our current understanding of love, I believe that the only way to truly worship God is to listen to his son and love one another.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Dear sacgamer25,

Wow, we are really close in understanding and belief. If I may ask a question and your response may be public or U2U, how did you come to your understanding? It is not taught in most religions including the vast majority that go to religious schools or colleges? Ritual and dogma are usually taught even though Jesus said to teach love as did Paul. I definitely feel we are kindred spirits on these matters. What a pleasure to have this discussion tonight, I have to give a sermon in two weeks and may actually talk about this conversation. LOL, I frequently bring up questions asked on ATS to the congregation (I am a junior, really old, pastor, lol), I like them to think about things a little more than most. I ask them to question their beliefs and understandings. I am going to start a new thread right now and hope that you make some suggestions. Peace and love.

reply to post by AQuestion


I came to my belief after a combination of events in my life. A broken marriage, trouble at work, a young daughter who I wanted to provide better for. I came to the point where I felt like everything I was doing was against God, I couldn't control my emotions. Maybe a mid life crisis, who really knows.

So I prayed to God to help me figure out life so I could be a better parent for my child. I even prayed that God take me from the world if I could not provide for my daughter, believing that God would care for her better than I could. So I was inspired and bought the bible on CD and listened to the entire thing. Then for the next two years, I drive about 1-2 hours for work each day, I listened to the NT over and over and over…..

Somewhere from the time of my prayer and the two years everything just began to come to me and I could see clearly what was written in the pages of the bible.

And I am quite rare because I believe the bible 100% accurate, meaning I believe in young earth and creationism as stated in Geneses.

reply to post by Bone75


The notion is implied through their beliefs.

If they believe their way is the only way (which they most likely do) then any other way leads to hell.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Dear 3NL1GHT3N3D1,

You have proven you are a bigot and think every Christian believes the exact same thing thereby demonstrating your inability to treat others as individuals and ask what they believe.