Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

reply to post by wildtimes

Here's the thing, logical7. I do not think that "Islam" is necessary for decent, cooperative, humble people to live together with no violence. You DO think that it is. And therefore, we will never agree. What a shame.

indeed a shame wildtimes!

Religion is NOT necessary for living a good life.
Its about finding the truth.
Truth that you acknowledge is that we have a Maker.
For me its the Truth that, that Maker communicates through messengers.
you said, you don't know but mostly not.
The difference starts right from there.

I don't hate or demonise West, i do see wrongs in west and point at them, i don't consider that you are demonising Islam when you point at wrongs in muslim communities.

We can both agree that "Western Culture" is not a perfect system, it just got developed and shaped by its past. The Church, Reniassance, WWI,WWII and women moving out to replace men as a workforce when men went to fight wars, industrialization etc. Did anybody sit and question "why they do what they do?"

i have nothing to gain by just annoying you. I have my views and love exchanging them.

reply to post by logical7

Its said that he wanted women when the only virgin he married was Ayesha r.a.(she was not 9)

No. She was SIX. (6).

and all the other marriages were politically motivated to unite the tribes and clans

Yep! Just like "arranged marriages" are nowadays in Islamic areas, and among Indian people, and were in Europe in the MIDDLE AGES. "Tough toenails if you don't "like" the choice of fiance/future spouse."
What about marrying for LOVE? For COMPATIBILITY, and a MUTUAL agreement to unite and create a family?

in order to make a peaceful ummah(community/nation) of muslims when tribe mentality was still effective on the minds of new muslims.

Apparently, the "tribe mentality" is STILL effective on the minds of the 14th-level descendants of those same medieval "new muslims" (warlords?) and European 'clan-builders'.

IT
DOESN'T
WORK.

People want to marry for LOVE, not for "political alliances."

reply to post by logical7


Wait... Do you not say that Sharia law is the way things should be?



The main issue I see is that Islam seems to ignore the contradictions within their book... depending on the situation they chose to either embrace or deny passages... Which is my only real issue with the religion

Aside from the fact that I know little to nothing about it

reply to post by logical7

i have nothing to gain by just annoying you. I have my views and love exchanging them.

Cool. Good to know.

Thank you.

wildtimes

here's the problem with western civs, particularly republics. our decision process was originally based on the decisions of a panel of relatively impartial and just, law makers, who did not make laws based solely on the desire of 50% or more of the population. you can't erect sharia in such a system because sharia works on mob rules. 50% or more of the population can vote away the freedoms, livelihoods and ability to live, with just a bit of ye olde propaganda. muslims follow sharia as a form of government, which is not impartial. it's mob rule based on a system of laws which basically turn a huge percentage of the population into subhumans, which they then try to gloss over by saying women who are improperly dressed are treated even less human. sorry but having the freedom to choose is much more important to me as a human being, than the sharia alternatives.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

So how can one claim islam is a religion of peace, when its founder did not promote peace at all times?

Why did he need to play the conqueror if he wanted peace?

Why did he play the politician when that role always involves lying to accomplish the agenda?

He only
defended himself, his family and his followers; and finally vanquished his
enemies.

That statement is a contradiction in itself... :shk:

maybe you read "vanquished" as "slaughter"

being peaceful at times when its the wrong thing to do is called cowardice!

He was a role model general and statesman. Who says its a requirement to lie to be a politician?

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

So how can one claim islam is a religion of peace, when its founder did not promote peace at all times?

Why did he need to play the conqueror if he wanted peace?

Why did he play the politician when that role always involves lying to accomplish the agenda?

He only
defended himself, his family and his followers; and finally vanquished his
enemies.

That statement is a contradiction in itself... :shk:

maybe you read "vanquished" as "slaughter"

being peaceful at times when its the wrong thing to do is called cowardice!

He was a role model general and statesman. Who says its a requirement to lie to be a politician?

Uhm... everyone does...

in fact in my country one can not be a politician without first having a degree in law... which is essentially learning how to lie legally...

it is one thing to defend a friend, or family... but it is another thing to seek out and destroy ones adversaries...

reply to post by wildtimes

People want to marry for LOVE, not for "political alliances."

you'l be surprized how many do it for MONEY!

i am not going to discuss this as i myself believe in LOVE marriage

but i do like to joke that nothing much different between love and arranged! In one the guy happily jumps in a well, in the other the family pushes him

reply to post by logical7

Dear logical7,

For whatever reason, you want a reply addressed directly to you. It appears insufficient that you have my writings and opinions spread throughout this thread, you want your own special message. Fine, out of the kindness of my big, loving, heart, a heart that wants nothing but honest conversation and an occasional hug, I will grant your wish.

In addition to that, I will even comply with a second of your requests:

Maybe its just your style but if you don't want to be mistaken as a bigot then be more straightforward and not put a spin on your words where you appear to say one thing and yet try to slip in another idea too.

Fine, straightforward and spinless it is.

Why don't you talk to me Charles? Why have i not seen a reply post from you, directly to me?

Because what I have seen from you in this thread leads me to believe you do not want, or can not participate in, an honest reasonable discussion. You are good at denying, deflecting, and insulting. Since I am not being paid to turn you into a thoughtful, rational person on the subject of religion, there's really no point in trying much more. I do hope to meet you on another topic, though, I'd bet you'd have something to offer.

nice misquoting Charles those are Scorpie's and my reply to some other posters not to wildimes, a living example how editing can make someone appear to say what they didn't meant.

You miss the point, and my intent. I took quotes which were posted, after wildtimes posted her peace offering, to show how it was being accepted by you and others. Actually, it wasn't being accepted well at all.

Asking muslims to give a peace speech is fine but i am not going to agree that there is a "fault" in the religion itself.

Ok, fine, don't. Will you admit that there is no fault in Christianity either? If not, how do I talk with someone who starts with "My religion is perfect, and yours is condemned to Hell?" And do you think Muslim leaders should give the peace speech as written? If not, what do you object to?

Will you at least agree that 75%-90% of the Muslim population is Sunni? Therefore, Sunni is basically Islam? And that Sunnis stage more terror attacks then everybody else in the world combined? And that their terror attacks kill more than twice as many people as all other terrorist attacks combined? And yet they go around blowing things up because they say Islam tells them to? It may be that Islam is perfect, it's just that the followers seem to have it wrong. If you can't agree to those facts, you have another reason why I'm less than excited to talk to you.

The fault is in muslims and i admit it. I condemn all terrorist acts that were responsible for loss of innocent lives. I even apologise to you on behalf of my faith if action of any of its followers has wronged you or hurted your feelings in any way.

Thank you, I appreciate the apology. Two things, however. One, what is the Muslim world doing to stop it? And two, what do you mean by "innocent?" If I send a case of toothpaste to boost the morale of American troops, thereby helping them to win more fights, am I still innocent? If I was a soldier, but haven't been for years, am I still innocent?

I hope this is sufficient for now. If I was unclear anywhere, let me know and I'll try to fix it.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

Wait... Do you not say that Sharia law is the way things should be?

The main issue I see is that Islam seems to ignore the contradictions within their book... depending on the situation they chose to either embrace or deny passages... Which is my only real issue with the religion

Aside from the fact that I know little to nothing about it

sharia is a framework, a guideline its not cut and dried laws.

You should know more, Qur'an was revealed in 23yrs commenting and guiding muslims on real situations as they unfolded and also was generalised enough to provide lessons in it for future followers. The central theme is One God. Its 2/3rd spirituality, 1/3 rules and ethics.

Taking a verse by itself and then another somewhere else may cause confusion.
The right approach is to take all the verses on a certain topic and then make an opinion.

reply to post by Akragon

it is another thing to seek out and destroy ones adversaries...

what if they are stirring up an army to attack?

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

Wait... Do you not say that Sharia law is the way things should be?

The main issue I see is that Islam seems to ignore the contradictions within their book... depending on the situation they chose to either embrace or deny passages... Which is my only real issue with the religion

Aside from the fact that I know little to nothing about it

sharia is a framework, a guideline its not cut and dried laws.

You should know more, Qur'an was revealed in 23yrs commenting and guiding muslims on real situations as they unfolded and also was generalised enough to provide lessons in it for future followers. The central theme is One God. Its 2/3rd spirituality, 1/3 rules and ethics.

Taking a verse by itself and then another somewhere else may cause confusion.
The right approach is to take all the verses on a certain topic and then make an opinion.

Fair enough...

The problem is one verse says one thing... then another verse contradicts the previous... I guess my question is how can you know what you're following if the founder of your religion switched from war to peace and they back to war?

Another question while I have your attention...

Is it true that in Sharia law the penalty for stealing is to cut on the persons hand?

Do you agree with this if its correct?

it is another thing to seek out and destroy ones adversaries...

what if they are stirring up an army to attack?

Why are they attacking in the first place?

i read an article regarding sharia dress codes in saudi. a couple of american military soldiers
(a male and a female) went into a nearby town, to a restaurant. the female wore the coverings to keep from stirring up trouble but a muslim fellow happen to be walking by her table and saw her wrist showing while she was at the table. he had a stick and thwacked her on the wrist, to indicate she needed to cover her wrist again. it shocked her and she let out a yelp. well she happened to have as her companion, a rather tall, muscle bound black fellow of the american variety, who nearly caused an international incident over it, in defense of his companion. he was on his feet in a flash and was prepared to beat the guy to a pulp as a response. fortunately, the restaurant had other soldiers there and they jumped up and stopped the soldier from potentially causing the whole thing to blow up into a huge mess.

and you want to bring that stuff to america? whew.

in america, other men do not touch other women, without the woman's approval or unless they are very brave (potential jail time for sexual assault), a friend or family member or both belong to a religion where hugging, touching and so forth, are common. the muslim fellow who blessed my baby, is an exception since it was a thoughtful gesture although some women would still view that as inappropriate behavior. but to hit another person's wife or friend, over a wrist? you've got to be frackin' kidding me.

reply to post by undo


That is a very scary thought actually...

I would have bitch slapped that guy...

Edit: Now that I think about it... the GF would have buddy in a headlock well before said slap could occur...

reply to post by Akragon

Dear Akragon,

A slightly scarier thought? The Saudi had every reason to believe he was acting in a perfectly appropriate manner, because that's how his society behaves.

I'm sure he, and every other Saudi present, was astonished that anyone would challenge his defense of Islamic morals.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by logical7

but i do like to joke that nothing much different between love and arranged! In one the guy happily jumps in a well, in the other the family pushes him

"the guy happily jumps in a well"......
AND WHAT ABOUT THE GIRL?

in the other "the family pushes him" in a well?????

So, then, her feelings are irrelevant?

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Akragon

 

Dear Akragon,

A slightly scarier thought? The Saudi had every reason to believe he was acting in a perfectly appropriate manner, because that's how his society behaves.

I'm sure he, and every other Saudi present, was astonished that anyone would challenge his defense of Islamic morals.

With respect,
Charles1952

oh i'm sure they know american soldiers are not going to be prepared for that type of behavior. although in all fairness, it was probably hard to tell she was american or a soldier, while draped in a burkha. i mean that place was a frequented hang out of american soldiers, both male and female. i think he was looking for a fight. it was a challenge, cause he knew that if the guy tried to defend his female companion the base and local police would get involved and all kinds of trouble would ensue.

reply to post by undo


The really sad part is that she had to put on a 'burka' to go and have a meal and some relaxation.

What a mess.
Thanks for sharing that.
Yeah, my husband would have decked the guy.....no questions asked.
GET YOUR HANDS 9(Switch, stick, whatever) OFF!
Wow.

just wow
thanks for participating here, undo.

reply to post by charles1952

Because what I have seen from you in this thread leads me to believe you do not want, or can not participate in, an honest reasonable discussion. You are good at denying, deflecting, and insulting. Since I am not being paid to turn you into a thoughtful, rational person on the subject of religion, there's really no point in trying much more. I do hope to meet you on another topic, though, I'd bet you'd have something to offer.

you mean me denying the islamophobic video as a representation of real Islam? Do you agree on it as wildtimes did?
Whats your personal opinion about Islam now? After 25 pages of this thread. Did it change or you got more certain?
We have met on other topic before but sure can't wait.

You miss the point, and my intent. I took quotes which were posted, after wildtimes posted her peace offering, to show how it was being accepted by you and others. Actually, it wasn't being accepted well at all.

a very cheap point then, why should i change my reply to a certain poster because wildtimes posted a peace offering? I'l accept the offer in a reply to her. Makes sense?
Was your point only directed at muslims or you noticed that the offer was also not accepted by posters from the other side?

Ok, fine, don't. Will you admit that there is no fault in Christianity either? If not, how do I talk with someone who starts with "My religion is perfect, and yours is condemned to Hell?" And do you think Muslim leaders should give the peace speech as written? If not, what do you object to? Will you at least agree that 75%-90% of the Muslim population is Sunni? Therefore, Sunni is basically Islam? And that Sunnis stage more terror attacks then everybody else in the world combined?

If i admit that Islam is true and Christianity is also true then i am insulting my id here. Its not logical.

I am a muslim because i find islam true. Islam is not true because i am one of its followers, thats just ego Charles.

Muslim leaders have already done that.
www.acommonword.com/the-acw-document/

So let our differences not cause hatred and strife between us. Let us vie with each other only in righteousness and good works. Let us respect each other,
be fair, just and kind to another and live in sincere peace, harmony and mutual goodwill. God says in the Holy Qur’an:
And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which God hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a law and a way. Had God willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto God ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. (Al-Ma’idah, 5:48)

Wal-Salaamu ‘Alaykum, Pax Vobiscum.

can you define terrorism for me? and how you reached that sunni muslims cause majority acts of terror?
Is killing innocent muslims an act of terror?

As i said i condemn killing of any innocent person and killing, raping of non combatants in war.
Its just what my religion teaches me.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by undo

 

The really sad part is that she had to put on a 'burka' to go and have a meal and some relaxation.

What a mess.
Thanks for sharing that.
Yeah, my husband would have decked the guy.....no questions asked.

most people's husbands, friends, acquaintances, family members, would have an instant reaction to someone assaulting a lady in their presence, even other females (particularly military trained) would be inclined to do so, although in saudi, she had to go with a male military member. fortunately they did not make him prove he was a family member. i suppose they relaxed the laws enough where american military men could escort female soldiers to places off base without being a relative.

clash of cultures, big time.