Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

but i do like to joke that nothing much different between love and arranged! In one the guy happily jumps in a well, in the other the family pushes him

"the guy happily jumps in a well"......
AND WHAT ABOUT THE GIRL?

in the other "the family pushes him" in a well?????

So, then, her feelings are irrelevant?

yes, her feelings are irrelevant..wait a minute, do women even have feelings?? are they even human???

SERIOUSLY wildtimes!!
You dissected a joke to try and make me look a "proper" muslim by your opinion???

reply to post by logical7


log7 -
I understand now that sometimes you are joking. But - comparing all of your posts - it is hard to tell when you are joking and when you are not.

This is not the first time you have made a "joke" that came across as "other than" a joke.

If you would be more 'forthcoming' and less 'oppositional' it would help. Really.
It would.

It would help.
I honestly WANT to get your sense of humor - and be at a place where we can joke back and forth -
yet, not more than a few pages back, I said, "Fine. I give up. Do whatever...slaughter each other blah blah yadayada"
and you accused ME of "not caring about whether Muslims live or die"!!
You remember that????? There was also the time you made the "joke" about, "If I said I'd give you $20 bucks for each time you said you were a worthless jerk....you'd say I was the devil!"
That one was not funny either. PLEASE......

So then you say something about marriage being "the guy jumping in a well voluntarily or being pushed" and I'm just supposed to say LOL!????

See the double-standard there?
PLEASE, UNDERSTAND that you are sending mixed signals. One of "peace and willingness to cooperate and have a dialogue" - and the other of "blame, condemnation, and superiority".

PLEASE....
choose one or the other.


please

reply to post by logical7


i have a question:

if a man decides or is told he has to marry so and so, does the potential bride, have a choice?

yes or no.

wildtimes

have you ever seen rawa.org... ? there's a huge page there dedicated to muslim women who have self-immolated. : /

reply to post by Akragon

Fair enough... The problem is one verse says one thing... then another verse contradicts the previous... I guess my question is how can you know what you're following if the founder of your religion switched from war to peace and they back to war?

its simple, see the background situation. He forgave everyone when he returned to Makkah with an army of 10000. He had fought for survival when it was 313 muslims against 1000 pagans.

The pagans who wanted to bring back paganism kept gathering armies and allies making it necessary to be to aware and neutralise any plan of attack.

Another question while I have your attention... Is it true that in Sharia law the penalty for stealing is to cut on the persons hand? Do you agree with this if its correct?

no i don't agree with it by itself. Its true. A punishment like that cannot be implemented until the social justice that sharia prescribes is made perfect. When a person steals even when all his needs are being provided by the state then i am ok with it. Its better than years in prison away from family and society. Its a strong deterant too.

Its like clockwork, all parts must be working to make the system tick.

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by logical7

 

i have a question:

if a man decides or is told he has to marry so and so, does the potential bride, have a choice?

yes or no.

yes,
even in a nikah(marriage ceremony) the imam 1st asks the girl and when she agrees and signs the marriage contract, then he asks the groom.

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by logical7

 

i have a question:

if a man decides or is told he has to marry so and so, does the potential bride, have a choice?

yes or no.

yes,
even in a nikah(marriage ceremony) the imam 1st asks the girl and when she agrees and signs the marriage contract, then he asks the groom.

okay so it's just the parents that put the pressure on. is there a sharia law that says the daughter has to obey the parents on this subject or risk punishment?

reply to post by wildtimes


maybe saying that i am joking should help, right?

like this..

but i do like to joke that nothing much different between love and arranged! In one the guy happily jumps in a well, in the other the family pushes him

reply to post by logical7

the imam 1st asks the girl and when she agrees and signs the marriage contract, then he asks the groom.

And...if she DISAGREES? And refuses to sign?
Then what?

reply to post by logical7

no i don't agree with it by itself. Its true. A punishment like that cannot be implemented until the social justice that sharia prescribes is made perfect. When a person steals even when all his needs are being provided by the state then i am ok with it. Its better than years in prison away from family and society. Its a strong deterant too.

Its like clockwork, all parts must be working to make the system tick.

Alright... Now what if the person getting his hand hacked of was your child?

Would you still approve if he was found to be guilty?

By the way, most times theft isn't cause for "years in prison"... Its a hefty fine, perhaps a few months in prison...

You don't think that's a "tiny" bit more rational then taking a body part as punishment leaving said person unable to work?

reply to post by logical7


Yeah. That's fine. "You like to joke that...." does help.
Just please be aware that we have some built-up tension and mutual suspicion here.....
log7. I consider you a 'friend'. Or at least, a 'friendly adversary.' ??

Or, a "somewhat occasionally friendly (but moody) adversary"??

Maybe?

reply to post by logical7

Dear logical7,

Ok, I'm willing to work with you here. Let's see what our two brains can come up with. Peace?

We have met on other topic before but sure can't wait.

I'm looking forward to it as well.

you mean me denying the islamophobic video as a representation of real Islam?

Actually, no. I realize that those who support Islam are not going to look at it. Opinions on it aren't too valuable if they don't go deeper than "Islamophobic." I've pretty much given up on a discussion of that.

Do you agree on it as wildtimes did?

I'm not sure that wildtimes agreed with it, but to open myself to you, I think it raised a lot of questions and articulated fears non-Muslims have. I see it as important, but I don't know how much of it i agree with. We got off that discussion long ago.

Whats your personal opinion about Islam now? After 25 pages of this thread. Did it change or you got more certain?

Again, complete openess? My biggest change in attitude is toward Muslims and not toward Islam. It doesn't seem to me that the Muslims in this thread acquitted themselves very well in attempting to discuss the real worries raised here. Non-Muslims feelings were brushed aside as irrelevant. I have a fear that Muslims are perfectly willing to brush aside non-Muslims themselves as inferior and irrelevant, unless they serve Islam in some way.

Was your point only directed at muslims or you noticed that the offer was also not accepted by posters from the other side?

The video included the notion that Islam was not a religion of peace. People here worried that the video might be correct. Accepting the speech would have been an easy way to provide evidence that Islam is peaceful. They chose not to. That says a lot.

If i admit that Islam is true and Christianity is also true then i am insulting my id here. Its not logical.

Please reconsider what I wrote:

Ok, fine, don't. Will you admit that there is no fault in Christianity either? If not, how do I talk with someone who starts with "My religion is perfect, and yours is condemned to Hell?"

Fine, you have established that Muslims and believers in any other religion are wasting there time if they talk about religion.

You are also explaining the reaction of Muslims to the real world. If some Imam says Islam orders a terrible thing, or when Muslims tear down UN historical sites, or when Muslims burn churches with children inside, that must all be brushed aside. The refrain must always be, "There is nothing in the slightest wrong with my religion. Anything bad must be from some other cause. I know, I'll blame it on corrupt Imams, or insane individuals, or the provocations of the West, or it didn't really happen, or it's translated wrong.

I hope you can see why a conversation can sometimes be difficult.

And do you think Muslim leaders should give the peace speech as written? If not, what do you object to? Will you at least agree that 75%-90% of the Muslim population is Sunni? Therefore, Sunni is basically Islam? And that Sunnis stage more terror attacks then everybody else in the world combined?

Again, please answer those questions. You didn't, you know.

Muslim leaders have already done that.

(Given the peace speech) I was really hopeful that you had found an opening here. I liked the idea of finding common ground between Christianity and Islam. I honestly thought, wonderful, this is it. So I read the whole thing. (That "acommonword" document)

The position taken was twofold. One, be nice to your neighbor. Really good start. Two, Christians should give up the idea that Christ was God. They should also give up the idea that Jesus was the perfect teacher or prophet. Muhammad was much better. Of course Islam could not give up anything because their religion is perfect. They just wanted to show that Christians could embrace Islam. That's not "a common word," that's a flat insult.

and how you reached that sunni muslims cause majority acts of terror?

I included the link to the analysis directly below my comment.

As i said i condemn killing of any innocent person and killing, raping of non combatants in war.
Its just what my religion teaches me.

Please tell me if the people in my two examples are innocent. While you're at it, is a person who stands on a street corner in the US insulting Islam innocent? Or is he a fair target?

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by undo

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by logical7

 

i have a question:

if a man decides or is told he has to marry so and so, does the potential bride, have a choice?

yes or no.

yes,
even in a nikah(marriage ceremony) the imam 1st asks the girl and when she agrees and signs the marriage contract, then he asks the groom.

okay so it's just the parents that put the pressure on. is there a sharia law that says the daughter has to obey the parents on this subject or risk punishment?

no, sharia law will back the daughter if her parents force her.

The Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi wassallam) said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)." (Volume 7, Book 62, Number 67: Narrated Abu Huraira)

the silence part is due to the fact that a girl maybe shy to say yes.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

the imam 1st asks the girl and when she agrees and signs the marriage contract, then he asks the groom.

And...if she DISAGREES? And refuses to sign?
Then what?

then the groom goes back alone wildtimes!

logical7

okay just wondering since the rawa site has some picks of muslim women who set themselves on fire so they didn't have to marry someone, and others who have tried to or succeeded in, commiting suicide for the same reason. so it must be a muslim cultural artifact then. cause for some reason, these women are being forced into marriages.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

no i don't agree with it by itself. Its true. A punishment like that cannot be implemented until the social justice that sharia prescribes is made perfect. When a person steals even when all his needs are being provided by the state then i am ok with it. Its better than years in prison away from family and society. Its a strong deterant too.

Its like clockwork, all parts must be working to make the system tick.

Alright... Now what if the person getting his hand hacked of was your child?

Would you still approve if he was found to be guilty?

By the way, most times theft isn't cause for "years in prison"... Its a hefty fine, perhaps a few months in prison...

You don't think that's a "tiny" bit more rational then taking a body part as punishment leaving said person unable to work?

Book 017, Number 4187:
'A'isha reported that the Quraish had
been anxious about the Makhzumi
woman who had committed theft, and
said: Who will speak to Allah's
Messenger (may peace be upon him)
about her? They said: Who dare it, but Usama, the loved one of Allah's
Messenger (may peace be upon him)?
So Usama spoke to him. Thereupon
Allah's Messenger (may peace be
upon him) said: Do you intercede
regarding one of the punishments prescribed by Allah? He then stood up
and addressed (people) saying: O
people, those who have gone before
you were destroyed, because if any
one of high rank committed theft
amongst them, they spared him; and it anyone of low rank committed theft,
they inflicted the prescribed
punishment upon him. By Allah, if
Fatima, daughter of Muhammad, were
to steal, I would have her hand cut off.
In the hadith transmitted on the authority of Ibn Rumh (the words
are):" Verily those before you
perished."

reply to post by charles1952

You are also explaining the reaction of Muslims to the real world. If some Imam says Islam orders a terrible thing, or when Muslims tear down UN historical sites, or when Muslims burn churches with children inside, that must all be brushed aside. The refrain must always be, "There is nothing in the slightest wrong with my religion. Anything bad must be from some other cause. I know, I'll blame it on corrupt Imams, or insane individuals, or the provocations of the West, or it didn't really happen, or it's translated wrong. I hope you can see why a conversation can sometimes be difficult.

actually no, if an imam says to do something unislamic, its the imam to be blamed. Right?

3:7
He it is Who has
sent down to
thee the Book: In
it are verses basic
or fundamental
(of established meaning); they
are the
foundation of the
Book: others are
allegorical. But
those in whose hearts is
perversity follow
the part thereof
that is allegorical,
seeking discord,
and searching for its hidden
meanings, but no
one knows its
hidden meanings
except Allah.
And those who are firmly
grounded in
knowledge say:
"We believe in
the Book; the
whole of it is from our Lord:"
and none will
grasp the
Message except
men of
understanding.

Please tell me if the people in my two examples are innocent. While you're at it, is a person who stands on a street corner in the US insulting Islam innocent? Or is he a fair target?

he/she is rude but innocent, insulting any religion is rude.

I do not agree with the statistics of your terrorism link. I do condemn it even if sunnis are doing it.
You did not define "terrorism"

the common word between muslims and christian can be only One God with no partners/son.
Many people agree to it even if they are culturally christians.

reply to post by logical7


I wasn't asking your book....

I asked YOU directly...

Even Jesus said if something offends you cut it off... but it was meant metaphorically... He didn't mean we should go around hacking off body parts when we don't like what we see...

Lost a little respect there bud...

Originally posted by undo
logical7

okay just wondering since the rawa site has some picks of muslim women who set themselves on fire so they didn't have to marry someone, and others who have tried to or succeeded in, commiting suicide for the same reason. so it must be a muslim cultural artifact then. cause for some reason, these women are being forced into marriages.

yes, its a cultural problem.
When islam was adopted as a religion in many territories, the local traditions and cultures got assimilated and over centuries became impossible to distinguish without having a good knowledge of Qur'an and hadiths.
Like female circumcision, its done in africa, its not a compulsion in Islam, african muslims who are doing it for generations think it is.
The same with arranged marriages in india and pakistan etc

reply to post by logical7

Dear logical7,

Please tell me that your response is coming out a little at a time. Otherwise, is that all you've got to say?

actually no, if an imam says to do something unislamic, its the imam to be blamed. Right?

Right. So how come we don't hear of Imams getting removed left and right?

he/she is rude but innocent, insulting any religion is rude.

You did answer one of my three examples, I guess that's a start.

You do know that six British Muslims just confessed in court to planning a pipe bomb, shotgun, and sword attack on a gathering of at least a thousand people just for "blasphemy?" The only reason it didn't come off was because they got there too late. So the punishment for being "rude" is death by bombing?

I do not agree with the statistics of your terrorism link. . . .You did not define "terrorism"

No I didn't define it. I let the report define it. Have you got better statistics? Some reason to object to these other than "I disagree with them?"

I do condemn it even if sunnis are doing it.

Well, then, do you condemn the Sunni sect?

the common word between muslims and christian can be only One God with no partners/son.

That's not a common word. It's a surrender demand. No one who is a Christian can deny Jesus is God's son. The presenter of the "common word" is either unimaginably ignorant about Christianity, or arrogant beyond all belief.

With respect,
Charles1952