Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

reply to post by wildtimes

What Mohammed did with "ISLAM" is the same thing Paul did with "CHRISTIANITY" - and in my opinion, they are BOTH self-serving, politically savvy, ambitious CON-MEN. NEITHER of them has ANY credibility beyond claiming they had a 'vision' or were contacted by 'an angel' - and that is just plain crap. The "revealed religions" are BOGUS -- by definition. Sorry, but, that's my opinion. My EDUCATED opinion.

thats an EDUCATED opinion???

How do you respect my religion when you have the above opinion?

Whats your opinion about me if i say that i follow prophet Muhammad pbuh to the best of my ability?

Talk about meeting halfway otherwise we being at an impasse?

How much of what you say is for politeness sake and how much of it is what you really think?

A short video about Muhammad pbuh and what American muslims think

reply to post by wildtimes

SHAME ON WASHINGTON D.C. All of you perpetuating this, either by complicity or covert collusion, every single day - every single one of you - in the administration, JSCOC, the FBI, CIA, and NSA should be arrested for high treason, crimes against humanity, and left to rot until you die of old age getting stale bread crusts and water only.

Your predecessors should be arrested as well. You are war lords, and that is NOT what the American people want.

I just felt like quoting this. The U.S. seems to be paying terrorists quite well (Syria, Lebanon, Iran) to do its proxy dirty deeds. This isn't the first time, and not likely to be the last.

Reading this thread sometimes make me thinking how we can learn to trust and learn about each other. Generalization is the most common thing. I hope those hatred toward muslim ( all ) is only a prejudice and not a wishing.

Anyway, for some people that said no muslim against radical or extremist muslim, not condemned them here i give some to read, just need to translate it.
id.wikipedia.org...(Anti_Teror)

I come from indonesia, there are extremist in here, and yes majority people in here is muslim, as well as the cop, this special force, and the government.

Any many more achievement before 2004, since 2000 even until now. And yes majority of people in here condemned those act.

Here a sample of video

This is from a month ago

and more if you willing to search it.

But i guess like this is never enough for some people, and im sure people in here aware of news like that.

reply to post by logical7

thats an EDUCATED opinion???

Yes. It is. Sorry about that. But....yes. It is.

How much of what you say is for politeness sake and how much of it is what you really think?

What?!!! SERIOUSLY??!!!
After all this time and effort, and my conceding that most Muslims are peaceful and fine......
You are STILL going to accuse me of 'false politeness'?

Gha.

Answers to your Qs:
YOU:
"How much of what you say is for politeness' sake?"
ME:
NONE OF IT! ZERO PERCENT. 0%. Nada. Zip. Nill. Void. I don't know what other word to use to mean "NONE".
I have laid my soul and thoughts bare, and you can take it or leave it, log7.

YOU:
"How much is what you really think?"
ME:
ALL OF IT. ONE HUNDRED PERCENT. 100%. TODO. Completely that. Every bit and every word. All.

And here's another honest gem:

I'm sick and tired of you trying to make me a "bad girl" because I won't join you in demonizing Western culture.

reply to post by wildtimes

Dear wildtimes,

Congratulations for going out of your way to make concessions for the cause of peace. Allowing that American policy is wrong and that we are using despicable tactics in some cases, shows a real willingness to perform self-examination and be open about discussing solutions. All you seem to ask for from the Muslim contingent, is that they make serious efforts to shutting down the believers who do violence. In fact, you say:

we just have to get you to stop blaming "Western culture" and "lack of religion" for "immorality." Meet me halfway, at least. Because until you do, and acknowledge that "Westerners living peaceably among their communities, with their own "secular culture" are no THREAT to you and are NOT "going to hell" or immoral people, we still are at an impasse. I'm trying to respect your culture. TRY to respect mine, and stop vilifying us.

Should be easy enough for Muslims or anybody to do, right?

In response to that olive branch of peace, you get:

No one is trying to save the West. Even Jesus damns you. You are too doomed to be saved.
My point is that you don't have the moral high ground over anybody. So just think of the evils perpetrated by your people before you point fingers at anybody else.

And if it's not enough to attackt the culture, your peace offer is met by an attack on the Church:

yes, Islam came as a challenge to the sick aims of the church to impose a universal religion by force. Islam liberated the minority religions who were persecuted under christian rule and established freedom of religion and social justice.

Even I offered to step away from the criticism and offer a suggested speech of peace for Muslims and Christians to rally around. I get called a bigot:

The thread has revealed the bigotry of the bigots who persistently refuse to correct their misunderstanding about Islam, Qur'an and Muhammad pbuh and rather demand the muslims leave their views and give a bigot pleasing speech of peace.

It does no good to say Christians and Muslims are equally at fault in the terrorism game.

Sunni extremists accounted for the greatest number of terrorist attacks and fatalities for the third consecutive year. More than 5,700 incidents were attributed to Sunni extremists, accounting for nearly 56 percent of all attacks and about 70 percent of all fatalities. Among this perpetrator group, al-Qa‘ida (AQ) and its affiliates were responsible for at least 688 attacks that resulted in almost 2,000 deaths, while the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan conducted over 800 attacks that resulted in nearly 1, 900 deaths. Secular, political, and anarchist groups were the next largest category of perpetrators, conducting 2,283 attacks with 1,926 fatalities, a drop of 5 percent and 9 percent, respectively, from 2010.

If we're talking about religious terrorism in the world, we're really talking about Muslim terrorism. 80% of the attacks were either Sunni or non-religious.
www.state.gov...

May I say I applaud those governments who are willing to take significant actions against people committed to the death of others. Someone mentioned Mali. I'd like to point out that the French have sent in troops to assist the government in their fight. I'm perfectly fine with beleagured governments asking the West for help in fighting this menace.

So, what do we get from the thread so far? That there are verses in the Koran that are peaceful. That there are verses in the Koran that are not. However Islam is interpreted by scholars, there are many Muslims who use it to justify terror attacks. I'm more concerned with how Islam is acted out in life, than in how it is described in libraries.

Islam is responsible for twice as many terrorist attacks than any other cause, and far more than any other religion. As you say, wildtimes, we have to have a meeting at least halfway. I am waiting for a sign of willingness from Muslims here. I'm not interested in hearing, "We will talk when you admit the truth of Islam and it's teachings, and submit to it."

Eh, maybe this is just my frustration showing.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by mindlessbrainpower89

I'd like to offer a suggestion with the sole goal of making you a better poster. It rarely works to make several false or silly statements in the same post. One, maybe, two. More than that and you start damaging credibility and hurting your cause.

I can't believe so many people are buying into this "Islam is dangerous" crap.

Because it is, especially if you look at terrorism stats such as i just provided.

Why is it the same way people like you don't like Islam, don't like Jews, Christians or any other religious faiths?

See, that's what I mean by both false and silly. Wildtimes may not be a supporter of any particular faith, but I will place everything I own on the fact that she cares about Jews, Christians, and other faiths.

Why does it even matter to people like you posting provocative pictures as your profile avatar?

Please go back only a couple of pages to read her lengthy explanations of why it matters to her. As far as your worry about her avatar, perhaps Orthodox Jews would care, and oh, Muslims. You don't happen to be one of those, do you?

You apparently don't care about anything anyways.

If that is apparent to you, then I will say to anyone and everyone, "You are blind." She cares more deeply, and about more things, than anyone I can think of right now.

This is why I may not mind Muslims taking over this country anyways. Decency doesn't exist no more. Neither does morals, ethics, and values.

Nor grammar. And according to you, freedom does not appear to be a value. As an aside, how do you envision Muslims taking over America? If it is a good idea for them to impose their value on us, maybe we should go and impose Christianity on Iran, Egypt, Afghanistan, etc. We haven't tried that yet, thanks for the idea.

By the way, Neanderthals had red hair.

Those weren't random letters you typed. You were trying to insult wildtimes. Anyone accepting that as proper morals, ethics, and values, deserves to be a slave of the pagans in the world to come.

I wish I could have signed off with my customary "With respect." After that insult to wildtimes, I find I can't. I await your apology to her.

reply to post by charles1952

In response to that olive branch of peace, you get:

And if it's not enough to attackt the culture, your peace offer is met by an attack on the Church:

nice misquoting Charles
those are Scorpie's and my reply to some other posters not to wildimes, a living example how editing can make someone appear to say what they didn't meant.

Even I offered to step away from the criticism and offer a suggested speech of peace for Muslims and Christians to rally around. I get called a bigot:

you got called a bigot because you appear one although a very subtle one!
If you are not, you would not twist replies to suit your desired conclusions. Maybe its just your style but if you don't want to be mistaken as a bigot then be more straightforward and not put a spin on your words where you appear to say one thing and yet try to slip in another idea too.

Asking muslims to give a peace speech is fine but i am not going to agree that there is a "fault" in the religion itself.

The fault is in muslims and i admit it. I condemn all terrorist acts that were responsible for loss of innocent lives. I even apologise to you on behalf of my faith if action of any of its followers has wronged you or hurted your feelings in any way.

Why don't you talk to me Charles? Why have i not seen a reply post from you, directly to me?

reply to post by wildtimes

I'm sick and tired of you trying to make me a "bad girl" because I won't join you in demonizing Western culture.

i am not trying that wildtimes!!
And i am not demonizing Western culture!

I asked you,
1)if you have those opinions about prophet Muhammad pbuh
2)and on the other hand you acknowledge that majority muslims are peaceful
3)i say that i and all muslims know and try to imitate the beloved prophet Muhammad pbuh to the best of our abilities.

Don't the above three create a conflict for you?
Either 1) is not true
or 2) is not true

you need to change a view or explain the inconsistency.

reply to post by mindlessbrainpower89

Why is it the same way people like you don't like Islam, don't like Jews, Christians or any other religious faiths?

Erm, because religion is responsible for millions of deaths, and billions of tales of suffering? And...
*slaps forehead twice, waking up the common sense*.....

wait......

OH!! I know this one.....erm, because ...... ALL OF THEM are based on HEARSAY, ancient mistranslated documents that are mostly disintegrated and only represent a FRAGMENT of what once existed and are missing integral components that were written in dead languages by scribes listening to wandering shepherds DECADES after the supposed 'prophets' and 'messiahs' lived?

Because NONE of it can be proven?

Ummmmm.........OOhhh! oh oh...because I'm TIRED of children being indoctrinated into hateful, vengeful, finger-pointers who think they are "special" and everyone else not only can, but will go to "hell"?
*bites lip*
Did I pass the quiz??

What did we do to those people who are atheist or who are like them?

Erm, well, do you count 'polytheists' and 'agnostics' and 'pagans' in "people like them"?
Okay, yeah, me too.
"What did 'you' DO?"
You slaughtered them and forced them to convert on pain of death, rape, slavery, subjugation, poverty, and torture? Is that right??

Why does it even matter to people like you posting provocative pictures as your profile avatar?

*clears throat*
Oh, wait.

*checking*
Oh!! Are you new?
*double checking*

*slaps forehead again* Yes!! You ARE brand new!! Welcome to ATS.

Any more questions, just let me know!

How's DC holding up, bro?
Oh. Not so good? Yeah, that's what I thought, too.

reply to post by logical7


Wouldn't the inconsistency be that Mohammad wasn't always peaceful even on to his death from his death bed?

IF muslims actively try to imitate him, how are we to know that muslims will always be peaceful?

reply to post by charles1952


One of the basic tenants of Islam is to spread it far and wide, buy any means necessary. Military jihad is believed by a significant portion of Muslims - and no matter how you try to ignore that, it is indeed a fact of Islam.

Won't see me hating all Muslims, I call some friends but to ignore that the traditional doctrine of jihad remains alive to this day....don't think so.

reply to post by charles1952

If it is a good idea for them to impose their value on us, maybe we should go and impose Christianity on Iran, Egypt, Afghanistan, etc. We haven't tried that yet, thanks for the idea.

how about imposing pro-west puppet governments?
How about imposing the coca-cola, fast food culture?
The missonaries follow later with bags of money in hands and lies on their lips.. (ask Wildtimes, she'l confirm)

Are you a Christian Charles? If you are, then it does explain a lot of your opinions, reactions and demands.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

Wouldn't the inconsistency be that Mohammad wasn't always peaceful even on to his death from his death bed?

IF muslims actively try to imitate him, how are we to know that muslims will always be peaceful?

my point Exactly!

FACT-Muslims are suppose to follow him.

So now me being a muslim have to act against peace at least at some point if i have to follow him.

If i am peaceful always then either i didnt follow him or he was a peaceful man who had to do the right things due to the circumstances

maybe thats because he was sent as an example to everyone and played the roles of a husband, a father, a statesman, a general and left a legacy to learn from for everyone.

Its said that he wanted power, while he live with bare minimum and went hungry for days or survived on dates when he was the ruler of Madina.

Its said that he wanted recognition when it was not possible to know/recognise who Muhammad pbuh was in a group of his companions.

Its said that he wanted women when the only virgin he married was Ayesha r.a.(she was not 9) and all the other marriages were politically motivated to unite the tribes and clans in order to make a peaceful ummah(community/nation) of muslims when tribe mentality was still effective on the minds of new muslims.

Maybe this sums it up

Edward Gibbon - History of The Decline
and Fall of the Roman Empire London
1788:

…. The greatest crime, the greatest
“sin” of Mohammad in the eyes of the
Christian West is that he did not allow
himself to be slaughtered, to be
“crucified” by his enemies. He only
defended himself, his family and his followers; and finally vanquished his
enemies. Mohammad’s success is the
Christians’ gall of disappointment ….
He did not believe in any vicarious
sacrifices for the sins of others.

reply to post by logical7

And i am not demonizing Western culture!

Yes, you are. And have been, consistently, throughout your threads and posts blaming 'Western culture' and saying "they have no morals because they are secular"

I asked you,
1)if you have those opinions about prophet Muhammad pbuh
2)and on the other hand you acknowledge that majority muslims are peaceful
3)i say that i and all muslims know and try to imitate the beloved prophet Muhammad pbuh

Yep! You do say that!

And you 'blame' the ones who are hacking each other to pieces, stoning and beating women, refusing to let them have their skin/hair show, of being IGNORANT.

to the best of our abilities.

Speaks to "improving your abilities"

Don't the above three create a conflict for you?

ONLY WHEN "you and all muslims" try to say that Western "culture" is indecent, depraved, sick, bound-for-hell, and perverted. ONLY WHEN those who are killing others for being a different "sect" or a different "religion" are excusing themselves 'in the name of Islam.'

And don't EVEN try to say you do not hold 'Western culture' as a demonic, Godless, horrible thing!
You have said it TOO MANY TIMES for me to NOW believe that you 'respect' Western culture.

You have blamed 'Western culture' and its lack of 'theocratic religion' for everything from 'rape' to 'ham-and-beer-consumption.'

What a disappointment.
What a MAJOR disappointment.

Here's the thing, logical7. I do not think that "Islam" is necessary for decent, cooperative, humble people to live together with no violence. You DO think that it is. And therefore, we will never agree.

What a shame.

reply to post by logical7


So how can one claim islam is a religion of peace, when its founder did not promote peace at all times?

Why did he need to play the conqueror if he wanted peace?

Why did he play the politician when that role always involves lying to accomplish the agenda?

He only
defended himself, his family and his followers; and finally vanquished his
enemies.

That statement is a contradiction in itself... :shk:

the usa is a secular government with a population of christians and other faiths, all stuffed into one continent.

whenever our government does something unpopular, they always blame it on the american christians (probably because the cia is jesuit, but who said jesuits were christians? they are, afterall, the vatican's army and secret police. don't recall jesus having an army and secret police force). remember what i said earlier -- the vat threw their own followers under the bus, so why would they be any different to protestants or muslims or anyone else for that matter.

You have blamed 'Western culture' and its lack of 'theocratic religion' for everything from 'rape' to 'ham-and-beer-consumption.'

ironically, pigs do not have to be fed as many hormones or antibiotics as beef and other livestock. as a result, their meat is less physically damaging (in moderation of course) than other livestock. only remaining options are to become a vegan, a vegetarian or only eat livestock you've raised yourself on organic, non-gmo food and minus all the drugs and hormones

currently, i also wouldn't eat anything from the ocean. fukushima is still pumping radio active waste into the pacific.

reply to post by logical7

Asking muslims to give a peace speech is fine but i am not going to agree that there is a "fault" in the religion itself.

The fault is in muslims and i admit it. I condemn all terrorist acts that were responsible for loss of innocent lives. I even apologise to you on behalf of my faith if action of any of its followers has wronged you or hurted your feelings in any way.

Well, THAT's a relief! Thank you.

Now, please retract your 'subtle bigotry' indicated by your ongoing vilification of the "immoral" 'West'.

I do NOT want to start arguing with you again. I DO appreciate that you recognize that SOME Muslims have hurt others.
I also recognize that SOME Americans/Westerners have hurt others.

Therefore, it goes BOTH WAYS. ALL of the violence needs to STOP.
ALL OF IT.

imagine the implications -- the vat's secret police are infiltrating muslim nations, posing as muslims, gaining position and respect, using the power of the vat's endless supply of stolen monies from centuries of conquest and slavery, to grease the skids, then sliding right up into positions of authority where they can instigate rebellions and overthrow governments, watching their own parishoners die, and blaming the whole thing on american christians. it's mind bogglingly brilliant and diabolical, on a magnitude that few would think possible.

i mean, you would think (especially since everyone suspects the media to be complicit in all this) that when the talking heads started downgrading their own government's wars of conquest, that people would realize that there are other groups here besides christians. this is not a "christian" nation. it's a melting pot. why isn't it blamed on atheists or agnostics or jews or hindus or buddhists or pagans or american muslims? give you 3 guesses, first 2 don't count.