How does Blood save?

reply to post by pthena

The solution to the wrath problem seems quite obvious by dispensing with the notion that the clan deity is the Universal God.

That is what the New Testament is all about, Moses introduced Israel to this entity ready to do whatever it took to 'grasp the kingdom by violence', Jesus introduced the world to the God that he knew, and like Moses, gave a law, and made a covenant. Jesus brought us a redemption from the tyranny of an outdated concept of God.

reply to post by jmdewey60


It never occurred to you that God may have destroyed the civilizations that were worshiping other gods to pave the way for Jesus to be able to spread the gospel of the kingdom?

When Jesus returns, I guess you expect him to be returning in peace rather than returning to judge and make war like the Bible told us he would?

Revelation 19:11-16

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

Isaiah 63:1-4

63 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

reply to post by Deetermined


Luke 24:44

4 And he (Jesus) said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Jesus brought us a redemption from the tyranny of an outdated concept of God.

Us
If Marcion had not been suppressed, Gentiles would not have been subjected to the tyrant in the first place.

The superstitions about the old gods was already being replaced with increased Aristotelian natural history and natural science and Metaphysics.

Then comes along some new god being preached.
Just an old god pretending to be new.

Down goes natural history
down goes natural science
down goes metaphysics

Comes the Dark Ages

Read this piece here. It zips through the beginning rather quickly, just a couple of paragraphs, but read the whole article then read the first few paragraphs again.
THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE PRESENT WESTERN WORLD-VIEW origins.swau.edu
Actually, I only read as far as Aquinas replacing Augustine, but seeing a reversal of the process helps to see the process happen.

Edit to add:

And just to bring the blood into this:

The OT old god did not have the vitality to compete.
So he latched himself to Jesus and started sucking his blood.
the blood of, not his son, but the blood of Another's.

The above verses are metaphor. The process occurs in the mind and heart of people who link together Jesus and story book OT deity. It's a form of demon possession.

reply to post by Deetermined

God may have destroyed the civilizations that were worshiping other gods to pave the way for Jesus to be able to spread the gospel of the kingdom?

Now you are starting to get it! It's all about destroying.

I'm sure you are familiar with the story of why Araunah's threshing floor was chosen for the site of Solomon's temple.

II Samuel 24: 17 David spoke to Yahweh when he saw the angel who struck the people, and said, “Behold, I have sinned, and I have done perversely; but these sheep, what have they done? Please let your hand be against me, and against my father’s house.”

18 Gad came that day to David, and said to him, “Go up, build an altar to Yahweh on the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.”
. . .
25 David built an altar to Yahweh there, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings. So Yahweh was entreated for the land, and the plague was stayed from Israel.

I Chronicles 22:1 Then David said, “This is the house of Yahweh God, and this is the altar of burnt offering for Israel.”

Then after the alter was built by Solomon:

I Kings 8: 62 The king, and all Israel with him, offered sacrifice before Yahweh. 63 Solomon offered for the sacrifice of peace offerings, which he offered to Yahweh, two and twenty thousand head of cattle, and one hundred twenty thousand sheep. So the king and all the children of Israel dedicated the house of Yahweh.

Originally posted by pthena

And just to bring the blood into this:

The OT old god did not have the vitality to compete.
So he latched himself to Jesus and started sucking his blood.
the blood of, not his son, but the blood of Another's.

The above verses are metaphor. The process occurs in the mind and heart of people who link together Jesus and story book OT deity. It's a form of demon possession.

edit on 2-6-2013 by pthena because: (no reason given)

Under this premise we would have to consider Jesus to be Demon Possessed. Christ identified himself with the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

What is interesting about this, is that your contention that it is a form of Demon possession is exactly the same line that the jews promoted in response to Christ. Consider

Before Abraham Was, I Am

48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. (John 8:48-59, ESV)


If Christ is "possessed" to connect himself to the God of the OT.. then I'll gladly welcome the same possession.. I would call it a possession of the Holy Spirit rather then a demon.

Soul

reply to post by SoulReaper

What is interesting about this, is that your contention that it is a form of Demon possession is exactly the same line that the jews promoted in response to Christ.

If Jesus had come preaching Abraham, the Jews would have embraced him.

They called him demon possessed because he claimed to be before Abraham.

According to Jews, there was no knowledge of g.d. before Abraham.(except they claim Adam and Noah, yet no "Apostolic succession" Abraham was a polytheist receiving a new revelation)

The knowledge of g.d is not knowledge of God.

The existence of God does not depend upon Abraham or Moses.

reply to post by pthena


Exactly what do you think Jesus is going to do when he returns?

reply to post by Deetermined

What he is doing now.

Do you think he left us orphaned?

reply to post by SoulReaper


Did you happen to notice Jesus telling the Pharisee's their father was the devil?

The very same people who loved Moses and Abraham... and promoted their so called "laws"

reply to post by Akragon


That was because the Pharisees weren't doing what they were appointed to do.

Jesus accused them of stealing from the poor and taking homes away from the widows instead of protecting them.

They were doing evil. Remember all the verses for those who didn't practice what they were supposed to be preaching and what would happen to them?

reply to post by pthena


What, you've never heard of the second coming? What do you think the second coming is about?

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon

 

That was because the Pharisees weren't doing what they were appointed to do.

Jesus accused them of stealing from the poor and taking homes away from the widows instead of protecting them.

They were doing evil. Remember all the verses for those who didn't practice what they were supposed to be preaching and what would happen to them?

That is my point... the givers of "the law"... were those that worshipped the OT God....

Anyone who wasn't of the Judaic beliefs system... were taken advantage of, because that is what this God told them to do... Look at the usury laws In Deuteronomy...

reply to post by Deetermined

What, you've never heard of the second coming? What do you think the second coming is about?

John 20: 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus therefore said to them again, "“Peace be to you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”" 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "“Receive the Holy Spirit!

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "“My Father is still working, so I am working, too.”" 18 For this cause therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God his own Father

Anything beyond this, I know nothing about.

Originally posted by Akragon

And my personal opinion is that Jesus had the right answer... God doesn't want blood.

But my opinion of the issue only matters to myself... so...

So Curious then why did Christ say the following??

for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Matthew 26:28, ESV)


The issue here is a matter of perspective, you need a foundation of theological study to begin to grasp the significance of Christs words here and much of that foundation is built off the revelations given to and through the nation of Israel.

To have any hope of understanding why Christ speaks of his blood bringing forgiveness of sins or why Peter calls it "precious blood" you need to spend some time developing an understanding of a wealth of other concepts.. some of which include..

The nature of divinely ordained Covenants
The origin and purpose of "evil" which breeds rebellion against authority and leads to sin
The over arching purpose of Creation including the reason why man was created in the first place.
The unique and preeminent nature of Christ himself. (this is beyond difficult to grasp with our human intellect)
The exceedingly complex nature of God himself which cannot be boiled down to a silly statement such as "God does or does not want blood."

and that would just get you started...

If you hear the statement that "Christs blood brings forgiveness of sins and salvation from Gods wrath" and scoff at it then you have no part of Christ, or his redemption.

Perhaps you don't care, but one thing you should consider,

You readily admitted that you "are not an authority" on these matters, perhaps it would be wise to consider that there is a very real authority figure and he is no mere man with a human intellect. Rather he speaks of himself in this way

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9, ESV)

Thus just because you find something unreasonable or silly or unnecessary, you perhaps should still pause to consider that God might have his own purposes which are not human-centered, but rather carry a deeper meaning to himself which we can never fully grasp or understand.

It is far more likely that God reveals to us only what we need to know and only when we need to know it. Indeed it is likely that there is far more about God that we are incapable of comprehending and very little that we can potentially grasp.

imagine trying to teach a chimp not to touch a live un-shielded electric wire. You should indeed be able to teach him to stay clear of it for his own good through experience, he can understand cause and effect. Good luck trying to explain to him the actual properties of electricity or the physics behind it.

Consider that your intellectual capabilities are much closer to that of the chimps then they are to that of God and perhaps you will gain some appreciation for the task God undertook to reveal a portion of his divine nature to us.

Is it any surprise that we often don't "get" the message and utterly fail to perceive him correctly? Are we really in a position to judge his motives and intent??

There is truth to be seen if we would just open our eyes to see it.

Soul

reply to post by SoulReaper


So let me get this straight...

I don't understand Jesus because I disagree with the dogmatic views of Christian theology... and because I disagree with a man that didn't know Jesus, didn't teach anything that Jesus taught... and factually taught his own doctrine which has nothing of Jesus words... I have no part in "Christ's salvation"?



How typically Christian of you... And while its true... I am no authority... Who exactly are you to judge me and say what part of salvation I may or may not have?

So Curious then why did Christ say the following??

for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Matthew 26:28, ESV)

Simple... He sacrificed himself for the needs of the many... That does not mean because of the fact that he was executed anyone is saved by such a horrid act towards an innocent soul...

His words are what saves a person... Not his blood... Though his words one receives the knowledge of how to love... How to be selfless...

reply to post by Akragon


Where in Deuteronomy does it say to commit evil and take homes away from the widows?

This had nothing to do with the O.T. God. This had everything to do with humans who committed sin and evil from their own free will.

Stop making up stories.

reply to post by Akragon

So let me get this straight... I don't understand Jesus because I disagree with the dogmatic views of Christian theology... and because I disagree with a man that didn't know Jesus, didn't teach anything that Jesus taught... and factually taught his own doctrine which has nothing of Jesus words... I have no part in "Christ's salvation"?

You don't understand Jesus because you don't understand God.

Jesus said if you knew one then you would know the other.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon

 

Where in Deuteronomy does it say to commit evil and take homes away from the widows?

This had nothing to do with the O.T. God. This had everything to do with humans who committed sin and evil from their own free will.

Stop making up stories.

edit on 2-6-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

lol fair enough...

Do you believe they just stormed into widows homes and said get out?

Or do you think its possible... they took the homes from these widows because they could no longer pay for them?

Similar to what still happens today... Interest builds up when one can't continue to pay the bill...

You don't understand Jesus because you don't understand God.

Jesus said if you knew one then you would know the other.

That is your opinion... And it seems your God is not my God in any case...

reply to post by pthena

Anything beyond this, I know nothing about.

I think you'll find a study on the second coming very interesting and maybe even a rude awakening. Be sure to research as many sources as you can.