How does Blood save?

reply to post by Akragon


You speak as one with much pride and little knowledge but if you are happy in that place i am sure nothing can shake you out of it.

I pray God will grant you wisdom and discernment.

I would submit to you that there is significance both to Christs Blood AND his words. it is not one or the other.

Surely it is his words which will secure a pardon when he mediates for his people in the heavenly holy of holy's, but his people are indeed his people because they have been "ransomed" for a price, a price that was paid in Blood, not money.

This is what Peter describes here.

And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, 18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. 20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (1 Peter 1:17-21, ESV)


As always this is just one piece of a very large mystery which can only be received by faith through the power of the Holy Spirit, not ones own intellect.

Be sure that I do not attribute any "Special" authority or ability upon myself. I'm am forever a student and never the master.

Soul

reply to post by SoulReaper

but his people are indeed his people because they have been "ransomed" for a price, a price that was paid in Blood, not money.

So we return to the original question... Why would a merciful God demand the blood of the innocent?

Why would a merciful God hold his people at ransom for an innocent mans Blood?

And why would anything be paid in money... that's just silly...

reply to post by Deetermined


Here are some of the Bible verses that you can read regarding the second coming of Jesus.

www.jesusiscoming.com...

reply to post by pthena

If Marcion had not been suppressed, Gentiles would not have been subjected to the tyrant in the first place.

Marcion was up against an already established religious institution by the time that he got onto the scene in Rome, so things would have been a bit rough, with it probably dominated by those who were of the mentality of clinging to their old ideas of piety.
It could be that sociopathic people who have such ambitions to get to the top of a hierarchy (even if they have to create that structure themselves) would naturally be attracted to those same aspects in a certain depiction of God (as in the more horrific parts of the Old Testament), and so use the occasion of Jesus and the Apostles being Jews, as a credible rationale for that god being presented as the Christian God, ignoring the clues in the New Testament that Jesus was God, put in place by a power beyond what we had previously been able to imagine.

reply to post by Deetermined

I think you'll find a study on the second coming very interesting and maybe even a rude awakening. Be sure to research as many sources as you can.

I'm sorry that I didn't answer your question precisely. You asked if I had ever heard of "the second coming"

I've heard and read more than you can imagine. To my shame I've even taught to other people things which I had no knowledge of.

There are many things said and written which do not ring true in the heart. To repeat these things to others is hypocrisy. Jesus spoke what he knew. We should try to be like Jesus.

reply to post by pthena


Yes, and it's our obligation to learn about them and pass them on.

reply to post by Deetermined

Where in Deuteronomy does it say to commit evil and take homes away from the widows?

You can find it for yourself in Deuteronomy.
Here is Joshua version:

Joshua 24:11 “‘You went over the Jordan, and came to Jericho. The men of Jericho fought against you, the Amorite, the Perizzite, the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Girga#e, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; and I delivered them into your hand. 12 I sent the hornet before you, which drove them out from before you, even the two kings of the Amorites; not with your sword, nor with your bow. 13 I gave you a land whereon you had not labored, and cities which you didn’t build, and you live in them. You eat of vineyards and olive groves which you didn’t plant.’

Check the cross references for taking land, city, vineyard, given as commands by Yahweh.

reply to post by Deetermined

It never occurred to you that God may have destroyed the civilizations that were worshiping other gods to pave the way for Jesus to be able to spread the gospel of the kingdom?

I am familiar with that concept.
I now have serious doubts as to whether those things really happened.
I am more concerned about the harm to people's mental health caused by believing that those things described were really done according to God's will.

When Jesus returns, I guess you expect him to be returning in peace rather than returning to judge and make war like the Bible told us he would?

I think that what people think of as a return of Jesus, already happened.

. . . he should smite the nations . . .

That may be picking up on a style of Old Testament imagery.
It represents a concept that regardless of how things may currently appear, the will of God is irresistible, and that ultimately right will prevail.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by Deetermined

Where in Deuteronomy does it say to commit evil and take homes away from the widows?

You can find it for yourself in Deuteronomy.
Here is Joshua version:

Joshua 24:11 “‘You went over the Jordan, and came to Jericho. The men of Jericho fought against you, the Amorite, the Perizzite, the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Girga#e, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; and I delivered them into your hand. 12 I sent the hornet before you, which drove them out from before you, even the two kings of the Amorites; not with your sword, nor with your bow. 13 I gave you a land whereon you had not labored, and cities which you didn’t build, and you live in them. You eat of vineyards and olive groves which you didn’t plant.’

Check the cross references for taking land, city, vineyard, given as commands by Yahweh.

I was thinking he was looking for that specific phrase...

Its pretty easy to find this so called "god" telling his people to do evil...

reply to post by pthena


Yes, because these people were worshiping other gods.

Since you mentioned Solomon earlier, read what happened to him for mixing with these other people that they were told not to mix with in order that they not stray away from God.

1 Kings 11:1-11

1 But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites:

2 Of the nations concerning which the Lord said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.

3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God, as was the heart of David his father.

5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.

6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the Lord, and went not fully after the Lord, as did David his father.

7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.

8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.

9 And the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the Lord God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,

10 And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the Lord commanded.

11 Wherefore the Lord said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by SoulReaper

 

but his people are indeed his people because they have been "ransomed" for a price, a price that was paid in Blood, not money.

So we return to the original question... Why would a merciful God demand the blood of the innocent?

Why would a merciful God hold his people at ransom for an innocent mans Blood?

And why would anything be paid in money... that's just silly...

Why?

That was not your original question.. your original question was HOW.

The Why is exceedingly more complex then the How and there is not one singular answer to the why.

I can assure you that your brain is incapable of fully perceiving the motives which reside in the God of creation.. however you can grasp some aspects of his reality and accept it as truth by the grace of God.

Just some of the why relates to what John is talking about here..

By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. (1 John 3:16, ESV)

It is the deepest expression of love to sacrifice the most priceless thing one has. It is an even greater sacrifice if you lay down your life for the sake of your enemy, which is what Paul preached (while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us... ect)

In order for Christ to be seen and upheld as the greatest example of Love, the history of mankind was purposed to unfold as it did, all subjected to futility and all in need of a savior.

The Wrath of God serves to enhance the worth of his mercy and grace. How much more would you appreciate someone who has endured pain in your stead? or spared you pain through his own sacrifice even when you did not deserve or earn it?

The beauty is seen by those who are given spiritual eyes to see it. These are spiritual truths revealed to those who are in the Spirit. To the rest of the world it is folly and nonsense.


I submit to you that every truly GREAT story has both tragedy and triumph, joy and pain, personal sacrifice for the benefit of others, a great darkness(evil) in opposition to the light(good), a conquering hero who can vanquish the darkness and "save the day" or in our case "save his people"...ect ect.

You don't have to like the story, you don't have to believe the story... one day Christ will gather to himself all that are his and the truth will be evident for all to see. I look forward to that day

Soul

reply to post by Deetermined

And the rule Solomon violated was the rule concerning "other gods"

The general rule is the anti-heresy rule. The rule is for "protection"

If there is a city, and one person in the city says, "come, let's worship other gods"
and the people of the city don't kill that person,
then that whole city must be destroyed,
men, women, children, livestock,
must all be burnt as a holocaust.

reply to post by pthena


I don't understand what you're trying to say.

reply to post by Deetermined

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

I'm just repeating to you the rules of the character you consider to be your unchanging god.

Deuteronomy 13: 12 If you shall hear tell concerning one of your cities, which Yahweh your God gives you to dwell there, saying, 13 Certain base fellows are gone out from the midst of you, and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, “Let us go and serve other gods,” which you have not known; 14 then you shall inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is done in the midst of you, 15 you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein and its livestock, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its street, and shall burn with fire the city, and all its spoil every whit, to Yahweh your God: and it shall be a heap forever; it shall not be built again. 17 Nothing of the devoted thing shall cling to your hand; that Yahweh may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and show you mercy, and have compassion on you, and multiply you, as he has sworn to your fathers;

The burning is a holocaust to Yahweh, so that he will show mercy.
Fairly blatant human sacrifice.
Find the Greek or Hebrew word for "devoted" and do a study on that. You may think twice about whether you want to "devote yourself to Yahweh".

reply to post by SoulReaper


That... is the best explanation I've heard thus far in this entire thread... I would flag that reply if I could...

There in lies the problem with the concept of sacrificing the innocent...

The idea behind the concept as you explained is that one gives his greatest possession so as to somehow elude the "Wrath of God"... because of a mans sins...

Literally placing a persons sins on another being... and killing it... spilling the "life" from that animal...

This God asks his people to take life... not give life...

Jesus said, have mercy and don't sacrifice... for the sacrifice must come from within a man... NOT from taking another life...


By the way I noticed one thing about your previous reply...

Be sure that I do not attribute any "Special" authority or ability upon myself. I'm am forever a student and never the master.

IF Jesus said you only have one Master, even Christ... Why would you look to Paul for answers?

reply to post by pthena


You do realize at that time that God was only directing the Israelites on what to do? The reason they are called the "chosen people" is because he chose them and shaped them to be the ones to ultimately be responsible for spreading the gospel of the kingdom?

reply to post by Deetermined

You do realize at that time that God was only directing the Israelites on what to do? The reason they are called the "chosen people" is because he chose them and shaped them to be the ones to ultimately be responsible for spreading the gospel of the kingdom?

If you believe that Moses wrote Deuteronomy.
and if you believe that Solomon did what is written of him,
then you must also believe that Jerusalem should have been reduced to a smoldering heap and never rebuilt.

"shall burn with fire the city, and all its spoil every whit, to Yahweh your God: and it shall be a heap forever; it shall not be built again."

Then there would have been no Jerusalem to kill Jesus.

I don't know what gospel of the kingdom you speak of.
Any gospel from Jesus does not require a Jerusalem.
That Jerusalem existed in the time of Jesus is an abomination to the very same Yahweh that you think is your god.

John 4:19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.”

21 Jesus said to her, "“Woman, believe me, the hour comes, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, will you worship the Father. 22 You worship that which you don’t know. We worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to be his worshippers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”"

reply to post by Akragon


I am a student of all but beholden to none save Christ.

I will listen to any mans words and search out the guidance of the Spirit of truth to discern if there be anything worth while in it.

In my opinion nobody should be up held as "flawless" in their opinions and thus blindly followed, but neither should anyone be written off as "worthless" and all their words completely discredited.

I find many things Paul wrote to be worthwhile and beneficial to my pursuit of Truth, to each his own I suppose, but I would not be disappointed to share his eternal fate with him.

Soul

reply to post by SoulReaper

but I would not be disappointed to share his eternal fate with him.

I wouldn't share that same sentiment... I wonder how many Christians lives he was responsible for taking?

Though perhaps if a murderer can be forgiven for his crimes... Most of the world has little to fear about their "fate" in the afterlife...

reply to post by pthena


As for Solomon, the kingdoms of Israel and Judah were split after his reign and although Solomon was led astray, he didn't direct the people to stray along with him.

The gospel of the kingdom is referring to the kingdom of God (heaven). The book of Matthew is the only one that solely refers to it as the kingdom of heaven.

Jerusalem will play an important role in the end times. The gospel started there and it will all end there.

God will complete his promises to the Israelites for 1,000 years here on earth. After that, we have the final battle between God and Satan before everyone is judged and the new heaven/earth replaces the existing one. The new heaven/earth is referred to as the "new Jerusalem" in the Bible.

Revelation 3:12

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21:1-4

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.