How does Blood save?

reply to post by ironjustice


Iron poisoning ,high body iron stores, from meat , the 'judgement' .
"Probable that a chronically high intake of heme iron can lead to high body iron stores"

High iron leads to all disease.
The 'judgement' , disease , for killing and eating.
"The importance of iron in the virulence of mycobacteria is discussed in relationship to the development of
tuberculosis"
"Can iron depletion inside macrophages serve to prolong HIV disease progression?"
"Cancer's rapacious need for iron"

Originally posted by ironjustice
reply to post by ironjustice

 

Iron poisoning ,high body iron stores, from meat , the 'judgement' .
"Probable that a chronically high intake of heme iron can lead to high body iron stores"

High iron leads to all disease.
The 'judgement' , disease , for killing and eating.
"The importance of iron in the virulence of mycobacteria is discussed in relationship to the development of
tuberculosis"
"Can iron depletion inside macrophages serve to prolong HIV disease progression?"
"Cancer's rapacious need for iron"

I believe we are talking about two different things here...

You're talking about saving the body... I am not...

The body is a vehicle, and as with all vehicles it goes though ware and tare as it ages...

You're not suggesting that I start bleeding myself are you?

IF God wants me to bleed, something will happen that will cause me to do so... but he doesn't want me to bleed, he wants me to learn...

"Moses Spoke with God-So Can We"

That page explains how Jack Ensign Addington discovered in the Bible a teaching , one of 'enlightenment' , proving , someone did something to the Bible , inserted a provable teaching into the Bible.
It is an excerpt from his book , The Hidden Mystery Of The Bible.

"Have you considered that much of it was too colorful to be read aloud to the children? "

Originally posted by ironjustice
"Moses Spoke with God-So Can We"

That page explains how Jack Ensign Addington discovered in the Bible a teaching , one of 'enlightenment' , proving , someone did something to the Bible , inserted a provable teaching into the Bible.
It is an excerpt from his book , The Hidden Mystery Of The Bible.

"Have you considered that much of it was too colorful to be read aloud to the children? "

That doesn't explain killing animals but none the less you may be right...

you're close to your 20 posts... Why don't you make a thread on the concept?

I would definitely read it...

"You're not suggesting that I start bleeding myself are you"

I'm telling you what I found in the Bible. Removal of the iron poisoning will treat disease. Understanding why and how and why it 'works' is up to you.

Originally posted by ironjustice
"You're not suggesting that I start bleeding myself are you"

I'm telling you what I found in the Bible. Removal of the iron poisoning will treat disease. Understanding why and how and why it 'works' is up to you.

Not everything in the bible is true my friend...

Have you tested this... if so have you had any results?

Again.. make a thread on it...

I can't argue against something I don't know anything about...

"Have you tested this... if so have you had any results?"

Any disease , every disease is to be treated with iron reduction.
Just type in Google , "Iron In Disease" , or "iron in any disease" , or simply type the disease AND iron.
The 'proof' is in the pudding , every disease , even genetic.
Since we are , 'all loved as if we were His only child' , wouldn't you think the best thing you could do for your kid is to tell him how to treat his disease ? If you don't , you must not have a kid.

reply to post by ironjustice

every disease is to be treated with iron reduction

I suffer from iron deficiency, they won't let me donate blood. How else can I reduce iron more?
My blood oxygen saturation is pretty low too as a result. I'm poor in spirit.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by abeverage
This makes me believe the god of the OT is not the same GOD as the NT and that OT god is one of demands, anger and sacrifices if a animal is not available a human will do! I think that Christians have in some part left this god behind by following Jesus but should have severed the link completely.

edit on 30-5-2013 by abeverage because: (no reason given)

We Have a Winner!!

don't laugh - that's literally Marcion of Sinope's (late 1st, early 2nd century) teachings.

He was of course considered a heretic by mainstream Christianity and kicked out by the Roman community - but his views were extremely influential (some think the reaction to Marcion sparked the process of the canonization of the NT) and survived in weaker forms long after the demise of the last marcionist communities (probably in the fifth century).

Why does God "demand" blood?

* When you commit injustice against your neighbor you make him some sort of retribution payment (usually in the form of lifestock). When you commit injustice against God (by violating your covenant with Him through sin) you make him a penalty offering for reconciliation.

* Tradition - sacrifices were probably common long before anyone started believing in YHWH, they were also common in contemporary cults in the same area. That sort of traditions and magical beliefs tend to survive for very long times supported by ever changing rationalizations (to accommodate the current worldview, religion, ..).

* That rationalization in Iudaism and Christianity being that man doesn't have a claim to blood - all life (=blood) is given by God and he retains his claim to it (-> Gen 9, the Kashrut, Acts 15,29, ...).
He isn't "demanding" a sacrifice from man as much as man is offering him what is already his.
Some Christian fundamentalists reject blood transfusions as overstepping into God's domains for this reason.

* The OT opinion on blood sacrifice is divided. On the one hand sprinkling the altar with blood to ask forgiveness for sins was a crucial part of the temple cult (-> Lev 5,1-13) on the other hand faith tends to trump "empty" rituals and there is no magical automatism (follow the recipe and say the right things and magic will happen/your sins will be forgiven) at work.
Isaiah 1,9-20 is quite impressive as it decouples the forgiveness of sins from the necessity of blood sacrifices.

10 Hear the word of the Lord,
you rulers of Sodom;
listen to the instruction of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!
11 “The multitude of your sacrifices—
what are they to me?” says the Lord.
“I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
12 When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?
13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your worthless assemblies.
14 Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals
I hate with all my being.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15 When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I hide my eyes from you;
even when you offer many prayers,
I am not listening.

Your hands are full of blood!

16 Wash and make yourselves clean.
Take your evil deeds out of my sight;
stop doing wrong.
17 Learn to do right; seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.[a]
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
plead the case of the widow.

18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,”
says the Lord.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the good things of the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword.”
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

(however, it would definitely go too far to use this text to argue that God doesn't want blood sacrifice in general - note, that He shuns prayer in much the same way under these circumstances. It does, however, show the relative nature of the necessity of blood sacrifice (conditions regarding faith and lifestyle have to be met in order for the sacrifice to be accepted) and it clearly shows that forgiveness of sins is possible without blood sacrifice 1,18-19.)

reply to post by hakona


Well said...

but if God wanted animals to be "sacrificed"... wouldn't nature be able to do that for him?

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by hakona

 

Well said...

but if God wanted animals to be "sacrificed"... wouldn't nature be able to do that for him?

the argument would not be that God hates animals and wants to see them dead but that he wants you to bring him a sacrifice (as a sign of your reverence, penance, ...).

(You could read the attempted but ultimately prevented sacrifice of Isaac as a sign that the willingness to bring the sacrifice is more important than the actual sacrifice itself.)

Why that sacrifice is blood and not, say, a fruit basket is probably mostly due to tradition - people through all times recognized the link of blood and life and ascribed magical powers or a special sacredness to blood.
Iudaism didn't develop in a vacuum and didn't emerge as a fully formed monotheistic religion (as the Asherah fans on this site like to remind us ).
When everyone else thinks that only animal/blood sacrifices are worthy of a god then do you want to offer your god (who you hold to be more powerful than other gods, e.g. Ex 12,12) anything less?

reply to post by hakona

Iudaism didn't develop in a vacuum and didn't emerge as a fully formed monotheistic religion (as the Asherah fans on this site like to remind us ).
When everyone else thinks that only animal/blood sacrifices are worthy of a god then do you want to offer your god (who you hold to be more powerful than other gods, e.g. Ex 12,12) anything less?

Then during the Bronze Age, the tribal religion was a Bronze Age religion, just like other tribal religions, and the tribal deity was a tribal deity that didn't have aspirations to rule the World. He couldn't care less what was going on 500 miles away.

reply to post by hakona

When everyone else thinks that only animal/blood sacrifices are worthy of a god then do you want to offer your god (who you hold to be more powerful than other gods, e.g. Ex 12,12) anything less?

When you read Matthew 6 do you feel that it tells the reader to "go with the crowd"?

When "God" asked Abraham to kill his son... why didn't this so called god just say be merciful?

For he is a sinner like the rest of you...

This god seems to forget "forgiveness is divine"...

reply to post by Akragon

When "God" asked Abraham to kill his son... why didn't this so called god just say be merciful?

I hate to butt in here, but there is a very important element to the Isaac sacrifice story that gets completely missed. Even Søren Kierkegaard missed it when he wrote Fear and Trembling, wherein someone goes over the story over and over in his head, playing out various scenarios.

Genesis 22:
2“Now take your son, your only son,
12 ...you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.”
16 ... have not withheld your son, your only son,

Isaac never was Abraham's only son. Ishmael was once Abraham's only son, but Isaac never was.
Somewhere along the line of development of the tribal religion, the idea of first son being the throw-away son entered in. Isaac instead of Jacob, Jacob instead of Esau,

All the firstborn males had to be redeemed with blood and money. I guess if they weren't redeemed, they were either killed, sent away, made slaves, or something.

reply to post by pthena

Does the "sin sacrifice" trick them into putting themselves under this wrath?
Sounds like a vicious circle that is best avoided by refusing the sacrifice.

What I was commenting on earlier was something Akragon said in the OP, involving the quoting of Romans 5:9.
I was saying that Paul was using Passover imagery, based on the fact that in this one verse, it has a mention of: 1 blood, 2 being saved, and 3 some sort of future wrath.
I don't see Passover as being a sacrifice.
It may be that in the time of Christ, it was seen as a sacrifice, since it was reserved at that time to something done by the priests in the temple of Jerusalem, or it wasn't considered of much use as a ritual to make you member in good standing in the nation of Israel.
What I meant had more to do with the original concept where every householder killed their own lamb to place the blood of it over its doorway, to protect those inside from the angel of death.
You mention in your reply this concept, that some Christians promote, of a sin sacrifice.
Interestingly, Robert Jewett has something to say about that in his commentary on Romans 5:9,

"Nowhere does Paul link the blood of Christ with remission of sins, as some maintain."

So, though some people do see Jesus' death as a "sin sacrifice", Paul never says that (according to the authority on Paul that I am presenting as such and quoting), and that hopefully will take that option off the table, of Paul 'tricking' gentiles into putting themselves under God's wrath.
And as far as "God's wrath" goes, the KJV just says "wrath", while other translations say "God's wrath".
Jewett translates it as just "wrath".
I don't really know what kind of "wrath" it might be otherwise, unless I use my imagination a bit and think of it as something natural that is part of how the universe works, that has to be overcome by supernatural forces.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I don't really know what kind of "wrath" it might be otherwise, unless I use my imagination a bit and think of it as something natural that is part of how the universe works,

I did a word search for "nations" on my electronic Bible, very alarming results. Very much wrath from Yahweh against the nations in about half of the Psalms, and most of the prophets.

So in addition to all that wrath against Sinai Covenanters, which drives them into the nations to escape, somehow, that transfers over to the nations, suddenly they come under the wrath.

Romans 15 I find very disturbing.
8 Now I say that Christ has been made a servant of the circumcision for the truth of God, that he might confirm the promises given to the fathers, 9 and that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy.

then there are a bunch of OT quotes

16 that I should be a servant of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, serving as a priest the Good News of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be made acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

This verse is very horrendous. The Gentiles become the offering. I can't find the verse, but I've seen it somewhere, either Psalms or post-exile prophets, wherein the Nations are a holocaust offering in order to redeem the Israel. It sounds to me like Paul is directly alluding to that.

25 But now, I say, I am going to Jerusalem, serving the saints. 26 For it has been the good pleasure of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor(Ebionites?) among the saints who are at Jerusalem. 27 Yes, it has been their good pleasure, and they are their debtors. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, they owe it to them also to serve them in fleshly things. 28 When therefore I have accomplished this, and have sealed to them this fruit,

I really should have been taking notes while looking at all the OT nations verses, because what Paul says here is stuff that Post-exile writings pretty much develop as "Jewish secret agent mission to fleece the Gentiles"

Ironic that Neo-Judaisers hate Paul and yet he was "doing his Jewish duty" among the Gentiles.

I fail to see how I owe the Jews for some spiritual blessing. What spiritual blessing?

reply to post by pthena

Romans 15 I find very disturbing.
8 Now I say that Christ has been made a servant of the circumcision for the truth of God, that he might confirm the promises given to the fathers, 9 and that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy.

While you were doing word searches, I've been looking at Jewitt's book to see what he has to say about that section of Romans. (which is more difficult than it may seem on the surface, just "reading a book", right?)
Jewitt seems to be the first biblical scholar to determine what the reason, or occasion, was for Paul writing Romans.
It has to do with Spain being a colony where the Empire divided up the land into estates and giving them to retired legionaries to create an early type of feudal system. (you see the same sort of thing when Spain later colonizes America) Also the other important thing was a lack of any number of Jews there, or any synagogues, that would function as a support base for any future missionary work.
He would have to work through the Imperial system to accomplish anything, and he would have to rely on patronage from the established Jewish/Christian community in Rome.
What he is doing is creating an argument for his gospel and tying it into the OT prophecies as its going out being the fulfillment.
What his gospel is about, is people who have the faith, accepting others and welcoming them into the new Israel represented by the church communities and their "love feasts" where everyone are equals in Christ.
There really doesn't seem to be anything else involved than that, with Paul.

As further commentary on that verse, Jewett makes an interesting remark about the 'glory' thing, where he quotes himself from an earlier book, paraphrasing a psalm, 149:4-5,9.

"To give glory to God is to place humans in their rightful place as creatures whom it is always dangerous to glorify."

The part about Jesus becoming a servant is important, as I noted in an earlier post, in that it is in the Perfect tense rather than the Aorist, so it does not necessarily mean that Jesus continues to be that servant, but that he was at a fixed historical point.

Another point worth commenting on would be the word, confirmed. Jewett gives an example for an argument to that meaning "fulfilled", with a speech by Hannibal where he is talking about this being the time for action rather than words, and that if it is the will of the gods, he would fulfill his promises, using the same word as found in Romans 15:8.
That would be the bases for my originally commenting on that verse in this thread, which is that Jesus has already fulfilled the promises made to the Patriarchs that the world would be blessed by their seed, that being Jesus.

reply to post by hakona

Isaiah 1,9-20 is quite impressive as it decouples the forgiveness of sins from the necessity of blood sacrifices.

These verses are clearly pointing out that prayers, sacrifices and rituals mean nothing if you're not doing them for the right reasons and continue to commit evil.

They are not proof that blood sacrifices were decoupled from the forgiveness of sins, at least not back in that day before Christ came along.

reply to post by jmdewey60

"Nowhere does Paul link the blood of Christ with remission of sins, as some maintain."

So, though some people do see Jesus' death as a "sin sacrifice", Paul never says that (according to the authority on Paul that I am presenting as such and quoting), and that hopefully will take that option off the table, of Paul 'tricking' gentiles into putting themselves under God's wrath.

What???!!!

Ephesians 1:1-7

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

reply to post by pthena


Regarding Romans 15:16, "offering up" is used in this large sense to denote the "offering" which the Gentiles who were converted to Christianity made of themselves; their "devoting" or dedicating themselves to God. The "language" is derived from the customs of the Jews; and the apostle represents himself "figuratively" as a priest presenting this offering to God.

Regarding Romans 15:27, it was through and by means of the Jews that the Gentiles were brought to the knowledge of God and the Gospel of Christ. These were the spiritual things which they had received; and the monetary contribution was the carnal things which the Gentiles were now returning to help the poor saints in Jerusalem to continue the spreading of the gospel.