Are Native Americans Considered Foreigners in America?

Do not cry for native americans, they are only special because they are in america..... There is actual genocides and displacements of peoples happening right now! In current history! WTH are you going to do about it? Weird that now we're such a civilized world but this still happens on a world stage without a bat of an eye but then we'll cry about it 500 years later!

Righteous words from the OP. Your empathy for a culture destroyed by Europeans is commendable. Your depiction of how the real history has been distorted and excused by the winners is true.

You are totally right that more people should remember these events in their proper context.

"the struggle against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting" -- Milan Kundera

"nobody got it worse than the American Indian"

Originally posted by jheated5
Do not cry for native americans, they are only special because they are in america..... There is actual genocides and displacements of peoples happening right now! In current history! WTH are you going to do about it? Weird that now we're such a civilized world but this still happens on a world stage without a bat of an eye but then we'll cry about it 500 years later!

It was white European men that did the damage 500 years ago, and white European men that did a lot of damage to each other and minorities in the 500 years between (dwarfing the damage of any other culture), and it the same people in power now. If you are a white man of European descent, it is your duty to remember this stuff so we can avoid having it happen again.

Originally posted by ParanoidAmerican
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

As I said as well there is plenty of evidance to support this and further back...
The Clovis culture appears around 11,500 RCYBP

Indeed. How does this relate to what you said in your earlier post:
"You are wrong! Clovis Culture were Europeans that migrated to this continent Over 12,000 Years before the wave of migrants from Asia. Does it bother you that the Caucasoid Race were here first and this is their Continent and they just repopulated what was rightfully theirs? "

If we figure 11.5 KYA for your 'wave of migrants from Asia'...well, you do the math. You seem to have left out Monte Verde (give you a tip...they're thinking 40 KYA but the proof ain't in) and the traverse North. To use your terminology, I'm not going to 'spoonfeed' you knowledge. Let's just say that you have an incomplete grasp of a complicated subject, but you seem interested so I would encourage you to dig (figuratively) further.

Originally posted by HelenConway

I think Native American's are pushed out and sidelined in their own lands.
BUT I do not think it will always be like this.

I do hope you are right. Only time will tell.

Originally posted by jheated5
Do not cry for native americans, they are only special because they are in america..... There is actual genocides and displacements of peoples happening right now! In current history! WTH are you going to do about it? Weird that now we're such a civilized world but this still happens on a world stage without a bat of an eye but then we'll cry about it 500 years later!

It is that exact sentiment right there that is the problem. Have you bothered to read anything in the op?

There is no recognition in the education system in America, how does this make Natives special?

I am well aware of what is happening across the globe to other people. I can only wonder how many American Soldiers would be participating in these oversea wars repeating history if we only spent more time looking at the effects of what happens to these people after being displaced.

If you do not remember history than you are doomed to repeat it.

The American Public Education system has chosen to ignore the things I have spoken about in this thread, and we can see the effects that it has had on people’s opinions of the American Indian.

There's an interesting development regarding Native American populations and that is evident when you look north into Canada in that they are the fastest growing demographic in my country.

Our government never declared war on them like the US of A did either. They preferred to just deal with them in sneaky ways instead, which, while it's an underhanded way to deal over the centuries, the fact remains that the treaties that were signed have an effect through the Supreme Court of Canada and they are protected under our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Yes... it's always a legal scrap, but at least they still have a modem of power in this land.

The point I'm trying to make is that Native Americans throughout South, Central and North America are very much alive and kicking regardless of how badly they have been treated.

If anyone is truly interested in this topic, two contemporary books are very informative-

The US of A perspective by Thomas King:
The Inconvenient Indian

-and-

The Canadian perspective by John Ralston Saul-
A Fair Country

Originally posted by IntrinsicMotivation

Originally posted by MidnightTide
reply to post by IntrinsicMotivation

 

Done with your righteousness?

I don't need to step up my game, I realize that to the winners go the spoils. It is you that needs to take a look at history. Essentially people look to Natives as foreigners because their culture lost out. They were displaced and the Europeans moved in.

You have provided another example of the problem I pointed out in my op

So we lost a war and should just go ahead and accept European ways and shut are mouths and be good servants to the European ways.

I am so sorry, but I never got that memo….

Oh, I expect you to complain about it, write some WOE IS ME speeches about it.....and you will get some token sympathy that you are fighting the good fight but at the end of the day it won't mean a thing.

Start looking at reality, the Native Americans lost - just face it, adapt to it and at least keep some of your culture. Or hey, be like the Natives in Canada - cry about the injustice of it all, live on the reserves and the government dime and let the tribal chiefs rip you off.

Your decision.

Originally posted by IntrinsicMotivation

Originally posted by HelenConway

I think Native American's are pushed out and sidelined in their own lands.
BUT I do not think it will always be like this.

I do hope you are right. Only time will tell.

The US has been eating its own tail for want of knowledge or cultural cohesion for a long time. Not to mention lacking any sense of being nourished by the natural world that they are destroying. The universe is about balance and, IMO, that balance will either be restored or mankind will go the way of the dodo bird.

In regards to a day of commemoration for the indigenous peoples, you'd probably have to read about that in the Iranian Press and do your celebrating in Venezuela. That's how out of touch we are.

Venezuelans have celebrated the Day of Indigenous Resistance to commemorate the Native American people’s battle against the European occupation.

www.presstv.ir...

Originally posted by Kashai
reply to post by WhiteAlice

 

The Spanish applied the same perspective as what was existent in the Spanish Inquisition to Western Hemispheric Indigenous Society. Further all those US States that have Spanish names once had
Indigenous names.

Any thoughts?

I'm not sure what you're asking me to share my thoughts on. I would agree that the Spanish did engage in a kind of "Spanish Inquisition" routine on indigenous tribes. I know that in the SW, there was such an extreme disregard for humanity by one of the Spaniards, Juan de Onate, that did some very repugnant stuff to the Pueblo tribe, including killing women and children by the hundreds and dismembering appendages and other cruel punishments. What he did was so grotesque that he was recalled from New Mexico to face hearings on the matter. The activities by the Spanish actually were bad enough to illicit sympathy from the Apache and the "Mountain Apache" (probably Navajo).

I noted that you used the word "nagual" in another post so you may get a kick out of this part. The Spanish were terrified of the Apachean tribes and there are accounts written by Spanish priests that declared them to be 'brujo" or witches because they were shape shifters. Both the Apache and the Navajo have their own version of the nagual and the priests' accounts are undoubtedly about them. The Apache variant retained the name "brujo" and the Navajo version is yenaldlooshi. Both have immense mastery of animal mimicry and the usage of poisons that can literally drive a person out of their mind even today so it's no wonder that the priests were just about driven out of their mind by fear of the Apache. I know a great deal on this particular subject, including oral accounts from the Navajo themselves, including a medicine man, of interactions between the same spiritual portion of the Navajo and the US Calvary but it is a very sensitive subject for the Navajo. It's taboo.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Nothing because I didn't say that, that was the other guy you debating with request proof yet providing none yourself......

If you would have finished reading you would have seen I too covered per-clovis as well. I personally think debate of who was here when and who should be here now and the like ridiculous because we have incomplete history for one and people have been migrating and moving for longer than we have records and evidence to explain it. The sooner we accept that we are ALL just humans trying to navigate the sooner we will know our common history. I am confidant that we as humans populated the globe several times in the past as we are again now. 40k is not solid yet give it a little more time. We even have site that date back to 197k years ago, Calico sites and artifacts.

More Clovis

Calico Early Man Site/s

Now that we clearly agree that people were here long long before 'Native American' populations....what exactly is it you do not agree with, why are you still debating semantics with out providing your sources? Do we know what race cavemen were?

reply to post by IntrinsicMotivation


I took an ancient history class in grade 9 to 10, literally one page mentioning Columbus landing in Cuba. After that it was just how the Spanish and Europeans worked the land. (i am not sure if the book is updated now, have not been in school for 8 years now) and nothing about what they did to the Natives and how they did it, i mean they mentioned the sickness which was a technically chemical warfare if you think about it, that wiped out most First Nations people.

But that was it, there are thousands of years of history that just isn't taught or even recognized, thus some American citizen's believe that the Mexicans are Natives, and some believe European Americans are the rightful owners to this land (which is impossible).

I am still trying to find time to go to a pow wow in a town not to far away from, i got invited, i was told they speak of their past and history that was passed down generations (some drinking and herbal medicine intake, yay), finally have a chance to go on Monday It would be nice to hear it then to read it from somewhere.

reply to post by IntrinsicMotivation

Are Native Americans Considered Foreigners in America?

Ahh No Just a Minority !!

WOW Europeans Asians Africans Middle Easterns Pacific Islanders Etc... are All Foreigners Still are ..



Natives Had A National Secrurity At One Point since 1492

But the Europeans British Danish French and Spainish were Far more Advanced ...

in Technolagy of Warfare

Originally posted by IntrinsicMotivation

Originally posted by Kashai
reply to post by IntrinsicMotivation

 

Hello Brother

Actually my culture was nearly wiped out but we still survive.

Puerto Rico has been found to contain Ballcourts and my training takes that into consideration.

To be clear of the Aztecs thought Cortez was Quetzalcoatl, one possible issue is related to the direction he came from.

To Thanksgiving it is the celebration of the harvest before winter and is no longer celebrated in every country.

Rocks that can move in a place without human or animal influence is the basis for Mayan Sound Technology.

Kashai is a Toltec name.

*Opens arms in warmest regards to his fellow brother*

The Borinquen later to be called Puerto Rican, it is the same story all over.

The Hopi encountered conquistadors. Here is an excerpt from a term paper I wrote on the subject last semester.

Like the Aztecs, the Hopi believed, at first, that the Spanish conquistadors were the return of their lost White Brother. Unlike the Aztecs, the Hopi decided to test the Spanish to determine if they were Pahana.

Frank Waters, who had spent many years living with the Hopi, recorded their oral traditions in what would become The Book of the Hopi. In 1540, conquistador Don Pedro de Tovar and his men on the Coronado expedition encountered the Hopi. According to Waters, “They were met by all the clan chiefs at Tawtoma, as prescribed by prophecy, where four lines of sacred meal were drawn. The Bear Clan leader stepped up to the barrier and extended his hand, palm up, to the leader of the white men. If he was indeed the true Pahana, the Hopis knew he would extend his own hand, palm down, and clasp the Bear Clan leader's hand to form the nakwach, the ancient symbol of brotherhood. Tovar instead curtly commanded one of his men to drop a gift into the Bear chief's hand, believing that the Indian wanted a present of some kind. Instantly all the Hopi chiefs knew that Pahana had forgotten the ancient agreement made between their peoples at the time of their separation” (252). The Hopi fed the Spanish, but having found no gold in the area, the Spanish went on with their quest.

About thanksgiving I am trying to show that it does not count as a day of observance of Native Americans as you have kindly pointed out that it is observed all over the world.

About the rocks and the Mayan Sound Technology, my cousin has always felt that a lot of the megaliths and pyramid stones were moved by sound, can you send me some links regarding this?

Thanks Kashai

I sent you a PM in relation to links though in general a search of, "Mayan Sound Technology" will provide you with much information.

By our traditions the Spanish carried coins from different cultures such as the Romans,and Greeks and so on. This was because our cultures did not trade for Spanish gold but they accepted coins from these other cultures as having value.

I know of at least 3 other accounts that were a part of my upbringing that presents formal relations between both hemisphere's prior to the European invasion.

Again do not misunderstand me Thanksgiving is a celebration of the harvest. something that in ancient times most if not all cultures celebrated.

Yes I was referring to Lughnasadh in relation to my earlier comment regarding a European Harvest god.

Originally posted by ParanoidAmerican
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

Nothing because I didn't say that, that was the other guy you debating with request proof yet providing none yourself......

If you would have finished reading you would have seen I too covered per-clovis as well. I personally think debate of who was here when and who should be here now and the like ridiculous because we have incomplete history for one and people have been migrating and moving for longer than we have records and evidence to explain it. The sooner we accept that we are ALL just humans trying to navigate the sooner we will know our common history. I am confidant that we as humans populated the globe several times in the past as we are again now. 40k is not solid yet give it a little more time. We even have site that date back to 197k years ago, Calico sites and artifacts.

More Clovis

Calico Early Man Site/s

Now that we clearly agree that people were here long long before 'Native American' populations....what exactly is it you do not agree with, why are you still debating semantics with out providing your sources? Do we know what race cavemen were?

The time scales on the Mayan Calendar are substantive.

Hypothetically speaking it is possible that at least one other tribe existed in Tibet at some point in time in history.

Like the current Tibetans they also were a part of the land and it is possibly that day the Tibetans wiped them out from the face of the Earth..

Then they never did that again.

The term Hispanic means Spanish blended with Native American. As I mentioned earlier many, many people living in the wester hemisphere can trace there ancestry to a Native of this Hemisphere.

Terrible things have happened between cultures and the only real chance for that to change is for people to
change.

Well said

Any thoughts?

I always wondered why Native Americans didn't have a national holiday to at the very least acknowledge and honor the fact that the white man with his superiority complex stole this land from the natives. Its simple they just don't give a crap. Indians teach them how to live off land in order to survive and in return they rape,pillage, and systematically slaughter the natives. Worst part is you don't even have the decency to at the very least give natives there own month of the year where they to can feel a little appreciated hence black history month and Latino heritage month.

Fast forward to present day and you have so many Americans that yell and complain about how we need tighter immigration laws and are completely hypocritical to the fact that at some point in there heritage they too were immigrants. This country was built off of imigration last time I checked. Nobody has any place to say who should or shouldn't be allowed to live here because if that's the case, then all you crackers need to leave along with the rest of us minorities... Hypocrites.

reply to post by beastnwokillah


As I understand it the reason that Native Americans currently own the "Hard Rock Cafe" is because of a certain law suit that occurred recently in the United States.

The details of which are available on the Internet, granted this does not replace the lives lost or the harm caused.

But today several Native American tribes are provided with financial compensation.

As I explained the Cherokee fought in WW2 and if you address the US military roster you
will find us as well.

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by Kashai

 

I used to have this really cool write up about "the Beeah Tribe" making fun of the BIA. Totally Indian humor. Wish I could find that thing again.

I always think of Alex White Plume of the Pine Ridge reservation. He knows all about the business model of FBI and Associates.
nativesunite.org...

I could tell you some stories about the BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs).

Originally posted by MidnightTide

Oh, I expect you to complain about it, write some WOE IS ME speeches about it.....and you will get some token sympathy that you are fighting the good fight but at the end of the day it won't mean a thing.

Start looking at reality, the Native Americans lost - just face it, adapt to it and at least keep some of your culture. Or hey, be like the Natives in Canada - cry about the injustice of it all, live on the reserves and the government dime and let the tribal chiefs rip you off.

Your decision.

If I did not know any better I would say you have some pent up aggression towards Native Americans. Did you get taken for a ride by one in the past?

I pray you are never in any type of governmental position. We do not need people with your sentiment in positions of power.

Originally posted by Kashai

Terrible things have happened between cultures and the only real chance for that to change is for people to
change.

Well said

Any thoughts?

Very well said Kashai

The trick is for people to want to change and not invade thier land and force this view on them.