Are Native Americans Considered Foreigners in America?

reply to post by Granite


Do you even use your brain sometime "White European scum"?
Back on topic - I know many people from US and every single time they are wrong on trying to understand who are real americans.
Back here we say - Go home - Oh no you don't have a home!

reply to post by WhiteAlice


I was under th e impression that the local tribes helped the jamestown residents ? This prevented them starving to death.

I do not believe the early English settlers came to the ' new world ' for a fight.

The ' lost colony' was either integrated / relocated / assimilated or died in war or of starvation - it is debatable from what I have read.

I do not deny in any sense that as time went on ... particularly 1700s and 1800s and now - that the American Indians were treated very very badly and the ruling elite wanted them ' out of the way' in many senses.

Hence the wars / the forced relocations/ the small pox blankets/ etc.

This was way into the futire though.

Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!
reply to post by IntrinsicMotivation

 

I reciently did a thread, which recieve little notice, about the NATIVE AMERICANS, well Native Americans and our Government. I feel sad for them regularly, but I'm not willing to go back to the way things were and, really, no one else is either. Some people look down on them because they are tired of being, basically harassed, about something that happened hundreds of years ago. I feel bad for what happened to them, but I wont apologize for something that I didn't have anything to do with.

Look at the Treaty (in the link above) that was signed by the Native Americans. 80 stacks and some horses and BOOM now you got to leave. People who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

MOTF!

I have read many things by you MOTF and I tend to agree with you, but I must point something out to you.

First I made the thread because Natives get no recognition in America, you said it yourself “I recently did a thread, which will receive little notice”

So you realize the issue at hand but go on to say that it is because ”Some people look down on them because they are tired of being, basically harassed, about something that happened hundreds of years ago.”

No one is harassing you. You do not hear me complaining about having to learn about other people’s conquest. I am only voicing my thoughts because I never got to learn anything relevant to Native Americans going through the school system. I had to spend time in a library or on an actual Reservation.

Public Education made sure I knew the White history.

You stated that ”People who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”

I am making sure it is not forgotten!

reply to post by HelenConway


Helen, really? How many times do we need to go through this? That quote is straight from Capt. John Smith's writings, himself from 1609. He did not get along with the Powhatan. He compared Powhatan to the devil and any assistance that the settlers of Jamestown received from the Powhatan was begrudgingly given due to threats of "English might" aka guns. Things did not go on peaceably from the very beginning and in the 1620's, the English colonists had so little regard for the local tribe whose lands they were on, they began to seize more and more of the land not just to grow food but the highly lucrative tobacco until it reached an incredibly violent point where the Powhatan slaughtered 1/4 of the population of Jamestown. In retaliation, the survivors of Jamestown went into the native's settlements while the Confederacy was not there, killed women and children, destroyed their homes, crops, fishing equipment and more. And poisoned them. However, the moment the Powhatan Confederacy invaded Jamestown, it immediately gave the English colonists the right to take their lands as much as they wanted as they saw it as an outright act of war. But they had already been doing that anyways.

That isn't the 1700's or 1800's. That was our first English settlement. I cannot help but think that, at this point, you are willfully disregarding actual history in lieu of grade school fairy tale lessons. Disney's Pocahontas is more accurate. The irony is that my earliest American ancestor arrived in Jamestown in 1613 and was a participant in these things as his father was part of the Tobacco Cartel. I'm actually ashamed of that. Go figure.

Originally posted by WhiteAlice
reply to post by HelenConway

 

That isn't the 1700's or 1800's. That was our first English settlement. I cannot help but think that, at this point, you are willfully disregarding actual history in lieu of grade school fairy tale lessons. Disney's Pocahontas is more accurate. The irony is that my earliest American ancestor arrived in Jamestown in 1613 and was a participant in these things as his father was part of the Tobacco Cartel. I'm actually ashamed of that. Go figure.

Alice did you even read what I wrote ?? Obviously not.

I SAID IT WAS ABOUT 1606. that the FIRST COLONY was about 1500s [ late]

I was replying to christina about the atrocities towards the Native people she was talking about which were 100s of years after this date - in the 1700s and 1800s.

I get your sympathy towards the Native Americans - I do really. BUT stop misquoting me and if you do not understand my point - ask me to clarify, I am happy to do so.

However - I still stand by what I said about the EARLY COLONISTS [ not the later ones], I am not a scholar in thsi subject but I do read lots of stuff and I also know that even scholars in this subject do not agree about everything.

So if you know so much about the early English colonists perhaps you can enlighten me about what happened to the early English colony in Virginia [ prior to Jamestown] ?

Addit : I also acknowledged in an earlier thread that their leaders and the privateers were profit mongering.
However - your average English colonist was not a monster and stop demonising them.

One of my more interesting experiences in relation to my background is being told on different occasions, that there were no Caribbean Indians. When I was young I would not say anything but the truth was I had spent two years by that time having been trained by them in their path.

I am decedent of Taino.

Based upon law both in the United States and also the rest of the Hemisphere. The Indigenous are provided territory, where it differs becomes clear once one travels south of Mexico or enters the Carri bean.

Especially in South America, it is actually illegal to enter these territories.

The governments of such countries will not help any person who enters indigenous land. Neither will they retaliate against those cultures, for any reason, Even if the tresspasers be they be harmed or killed.

I also have a background in Psychology. I worked at a Psychiatric Emergency Room as well as with the State of Florida and also worked for a private company. Where I had the honor of serving as Principal, in a school where the students had all been charged with murder but had no convictions.

That particular criteria was why they had been assigned to that program.

Having also done some traveling in this country I find that there is a perspective in respect to the indigenous and in relation to that I would also want to bring up Thanksgiving. Yes it is true that certain tribes assisted in relation to the development of this country, among the rumored were tribes from places like North and South Carolina.

The Cherokee also fought in WW2 and it is also some rather fascinating parallels between the American constitution and the fundamentals of the Cherokee Nation.

In general I have known very few people who cannot relate to having indigenous ancestors and one of my closest friends is related to the Blackfoot though not entirely.

From my perspective Western Hemispheric culture in general was in confrontation with its Eastern Hemispheric counter parts. I would point out that what were apparent as purges in North and South America. Was to allow for placing less emphasis, upon history om relation what was emphasized by Indigenous cultures in general.

After all first thing you need to do to build a house is to make sure you have plenty of wood.

Any thoughts?

Just want to say thanks to all who have taken the time to read this thread and participate in it.

I see lots here who do remember and I am not surprised by that. At the same time I see posts that verify my op concerning the implicit attitudes of people towards Native Americans and I thank those people for backing the statistics I provided.

For some people seeing is believing.

I also want to add that a main part of my op was asking why there is no official day, week or month dedicated in remembrance.

I did show 2 presidents that declared and proclaimed such days, but then asked if any member can actually recall these events taking place to which the answer is still NO.

To the video of Morgan Freeman saying he does not want Black History month, he does have a point, but at the same time he has it and Natives do not. More importantly, if public education wants to teach me the white man’s history across the globe, then public education should focus on the Natives just as much since I am speaking of public education in the USA.

reply to post by IntrinsicMotivation


S&F
But allow me to correct 1 small error

Thanksgiving-------- Has nothing to do with Natives/ it is a celebration of harvest-------Check

Most of us associate the holiday with happy Pilgrims and Indians sitting down to a big feast. And that did happen – once.

The story began in 1614 when a band of English explorers sailed home to England with a ship full of Patuxet Indians bound for slavery. They left behind smallpox which virtually wiped out those who had escaped. By the time the Pilgrims arrived in Massachusetts Bay they found only one living Patuxet Indian, a man named Squanto who had survived slavery in England and knew their language. He taught them to grow corn and to fish, and negotiated a peace treaty between the Pilgrims and the Wampanoag Nation. At the end of their first year, the Pilgrims held a great feast honoring Squanto and the Wampanoags.

But as word spread in England about the paradise to be found in the new world, religious zealots called Puritans began arriving by the boat load. Finding no fences around the land, they considered it to be in the public domain. Joined by other British settlers, they seized land, capturing strong young Natives for slaves and killing the rest. But the Pequot Nation had not agreed to the peace treaty Squanto had negotiated and they fought back. The Pequot War was one of the bloodiest Indian wars ever fought.

In 1637 near present day Groton, Connecticut, over 700 men, women and children of the Pequot Tribe had gathered for their annual Green Corn Festival which is our Thanksgiving celebration. In the predawn hours the sleeping Indians were surrounded by English and Dutch mercenaries who ordered them to come outside. Those who came out were shot or clubbed to death while the terrified women and children who huddled inside the longhouse were burned alive. The next day the governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony declared “A Day Of Thanksgiving” because 700 unarmed men, women and children had been murdered.

www.infowars.com...

more treaty breaking

TUBA CITY, ARIZONA – Senators Jon Kyl, Arizona - R, and John McCain, Arizona - R, will be in Tuba City on Thursday, April 5, 2012, to persuade Navajo Nation and Hopi Tribal leaders to give up their peoples' aboriginal and Treaty-guaranteed priority Water Rights by accepting a "Settlement Agreement" written to benefit some of the West's most powerful mining and energy corporations.

Ed Becenti - NavajoEd Becenti - Navajo

They are doing so by trying to persuade the Navajo Nation and Hopi leaders to support and endorse Senate Bill 2109.

Senate Bill 2109 45; the "Navajo-Hopi Little Colorado River Water Rights Settlement Act of 2012" was introduced by Kyl and McCain on February 14, 2012, and is on a fast track to give Arizona corporations and water interests a "100 th birthday present" that will close the door forever on Navajo and Hopi food and water sovereignty, security and self-reliance.

S.2109 asks the Navajo and Hopi peoples to waive their priority Water Rights to the surface waters of the Little Colorado River "from time immemorial and thereafter, forever" in return for the shallow promise of uncertain federal appropriations to supply minimal amounts of drinking water to a handful of reservation communities.

www.nativenewsnetwork.com...


Leaked docs expose Interior scheme for Navajo water rights in Lame Duck Congress
narcosphere.narconews.com...

reply to post by HelenConway


Sorry but you are being disingenuous here. You went and brought up the two failed colonies prior to Jamestown, and then acted like they were 100's of years away from Jamestown. The reality is less than 20 years between the two. No one knows what happened to Roanoke, it could have been any number of things. But in any case it is not very likely that those settlers views were that vastly different from what was the common view of the successful colonists towards the natives.

Was it all doom and gloom between them all the time? No, there were periods where they tried to be peaceable to one another, but even then that was just the colonists playing nice knowing many more were on their way across the sea. It isn't that the colonists were evil men, but they had a diametrically opposed view of the world compared to the natives.

reply to post by TheMagus


Of the six reservations I have spent time on I can tell you that what I wrote is how the collective groups seen it too.

Thanksgiving is more about overeating and watching parades and football followed by black Friday. I say that because that is what I have observed for the last 20 years that I have been paying attention to.

I will give Charlie Brown due respect as that is the only thing I can recall showed on thanksgiving day that tells the story, but at the same time it is not the full story and was wrote and edited for a child audience.

Nobody owns the land. The Native Americans didn't own the land. The Americans of today, don't own the land.

People who think they own the land, always get a shock, when the government comes and says, we've decided to build a road or railway through this land, kindly move.

All of a sudden they discover land ownership was just an illusion. They were duped into believing they owned land, so that they that could be convinced to pay the government taxes. But, those taxes are really the "rent". If you don't pay your rent, what happens? The landlord gets the sheriff and kicks you out. Same with the land.

But, if it was really your land, then other people would have to pay you the rent. You wouldn't have to pay anyone rent for your own property.

In the days when there were Kings, Lords, and Nobles, those people did actually own their land. But, today, who owns land?

Originally posted by IntrinsicMotivation
reply to post by TheMagus

 

Of the six reservations I have spent time on I can tell you that what I wrote is how the collective groups seen it too.

Thanksgiving is more about overeating and watching parades and football followed by black Friday. I say that because that is what I have observed for the last 20 years that I have been paying attention to.

I will give Charlie Brown due respect as that is the only thing I can recall showed on thanksgiving day that tells the story, but at the same time it is not the full story and was wrote and edited for a child audience.

Thanksgiving is a celebration of the Harvest before winter it is a worldwide phenomenon and something in common, between both indigenous cultures, in relation to both Hemisphere's.

Where else it is celebrated and in those cases why?

Any thoughts?

I grew up an outcast. I never understood why. I thought it was my last name. Then I learned I am an Indian. Over 1/4. I wondered why I do not burn, but turn red in the sun. Now I know. I was looked down upon die to my heritage. I could not see it then, but looking back at my pictures from then it is obvious now.

I am more American than any white man. No matter what they think.

Originally posted by Kashai

Having also done some traveling in this country I find that there is a perspective in respect to the indigenous and in relation to that I would also want to bring up Thanksgiving. Yes it is true that certain tribes assisted in relation to the development of this country, among the rumored were tribes from places like North and South Carolina.

edit on 30-5-2013 by Kashai because: modifed content

Guess what tribe was forced from the Carolinas?

the Cherokee.

I go to college in Noth Carolina aka the Tar Heel State.

Did you know that there are 2 major Cherokee tribes in the USA?

The Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma and the Eastern Band Cherokee located in Ashville, North Carolina.

Here is another fun fact, being that I was registered as a Cherokee by the BIA (Shawnee by blood) I contacted the Eastern Band Cherokee to see if there was any help with school tuition I might be eligable for since they got a casino back in 2010. I was told that if I could not trace my heritage back to a document signed in the early 1900's then no.

Sucks for me because I am not Cherokee anyways...... Thanks BIA.

reply to post by IntrinsicMotivation


Hello Brother

Actually my culture was nearly wiped out but we still survive.

Puerto Rico has been found to contain Ballcourts and my training takes that into consideration.

To be clear of the Aztecs thought Cortez was Quetzalcoatl, one possible issue is related to the direction he came from.

To Thanksgiving it is the celebration of the harvest before winter and is no longer celebrated in every country.

Rocks that can move in a place without human or animal influence is the basis for Mayan Sound Technology.

Kashai is a Toltec name.

reply to post by IntrinsicMotivation

President Grover Cleveland signs the Dawes Severalty Act into law Feb 8, 1887.

The act split up reservations held communally by Native American tribes into smaller units and distributed these units to individuals within the tribe. Also called the General Allotment Act, the law changed the legal status of Native Americans from tribal members to individuals subject to federal laws and dissolved many tribal affiliations The Dawes Severalty/General Allotment Act constituted a huge blow to tribal sovereignty.

www.history.com...

They said it was to encourage NAs to "integrate" into "society", but what he really intended for it to do was to weaken all the tribes even more than they had already been. Worked like a hot knife through soft butter.

Tecumseh saw it coming from a long time before. Tragic that he couldn't stop it.

reply to post by frazzle


Today in the United States the FBI can get involved in Indigenous affairs that is correct.

But actually except in Puerto Rico which is currently a Colony of the United States.

Originally posted by Kashai
reply to post by IntrinsicMotivation

 

Hello Brother

Actually my culture was nearly wiped out but we still survive.

Puerto Rico has been found to contain Ballcourts and my training takes that into consideration.

To be clear of the Aztecs thought Cortez was Quetzalcoatl, one possible issue is related to the direction he came from.

To Thanksgiving it is the celebration of the harvest before winter and is no longer celebrated in every country.

Rocks that can move in a place without human or animal influence is the basis for Mayan Sound Technology.

Kashai is a Toltec name.

*Opens arms in warmest regards to his fellow brother*

The Borinquen later to be called Puerto Rican, it is the same story all over.

The Hopi encountered conquistadors. Here is an excerpt from a term paper I wrote on the subject last semester.

Like the Aztecs, the Hopi believed, at first, that the Spanish conquistadors were the return of their lost White Brother. Unlike the Aztecs, the Hopi decided to test the Spanish to determine if they were Pahana.

Frank Waters, who had spent many years living with the Hopi, recorded their oral traditions in what would become The Book of the Hopi. In 1540, conquistador Don Pedro de Tovar and his men on the Coronado expedition encountered the Hopi. According to Waters, “They were met by all the clan chiefs at Tawtoma, as prescribed by prophecy, where four lines of sacred meal were drawn. The Bear Clan leader stepped up to the barrier and extended his hand, palm up, to the leader of the white men. If he was indeed the true Pahana, the Hopis knew he would extend his own hand, palm down, and clasp the Bear Clan leader's hand to form the nakwach, the ancient symbol of brotherhood. Tovar instead curtly commanded one of his men to drop a gift into the Bear chief's hand, believing that the Indian wanted a present of some kind. Instantly all the Hopi chiefs knew that Pahana had forgotten the ancient agreement made between their peoples at the time of their separation” (252). The Hopi fed the Spanish, but having found no gold in the area, the Spanish went on with their quest.

About thanksgiving I am trying to show that it does not count as a day of observance of Native Americans as you have kindly pointed out that it is observed all over the world.

About the rocks and the Mayan Sound Technology, my cousin has always felt that a lot of the megaliths and pyramid stones were moved by sound, can you send me some links regarding this?

Thanks Kashai

Originally posted by HelenConway
reply to post by WhiteAlice

 

I was under th e impression that the local tribes helped the jamestown residents ? This prevented them starving to death.

I do not believe the early English settlers came to the ' new world ' for a fight.

The ' lost colony' was either integrated / relocated / assimilated or died in war or of starvation - it is debatable from what I have read.

I do not deny in any sense that as time went on ... particularly 1700s and 1800s and now - that the American Indians were treated very very badly and the ruling elite wanted them ' out of the way' in many senses.

Hence the wars / the forced relocations/ the small pox blankets/ etc.

This was way into the futire though.

I was responding to the above where you were referencing Jamestown and Jamestown was begun in 1606, btw. You haven't once said a name for where you are referring to in terms of a colony in the 1500's. Fort Raleigh was established in 1585 in North Carolina--not New England or Virginia, the two locations that you have mentioned. Even there, things didn't go swimmingly but the English coerced the local tribe to cooperate through the taking of hostages: www.nps.gov...

So if you know so much about the early English colonists perhaps you can enlighten me about what happened to the early English colony in Virginia [ prior to Jamestown] ?

You must be referring, however, to Roanoke, 1587, but that wasn't in Virginia. That was North Carolina, Chesapeake Bay to be exact My best guess, given the lack of historical record, would be that the colonists of Roanoke probably encountered starvation during winter time and survivors were probably adopted into the local tribe. The adoption of whites into a tribe was not that unusual back then because people were people, regardless of skin tone.

I can read well enough. Probably would help if you got your dates and locations right for better clarity.

Where's the condemnation of the Indian tribes that warred on other tribes? They took slaves, good hunting grounds, raped and pillaged other tribes. Sounds pretty barbaric to me. Why is it the only white man who gets faulted for doing these things? Sounds racist to me to pick on just one race when others were doing the same things. Lets hear how the natives exterminated other tribes. Lets be PC now and treat all like the equals we are.