Are Native Americans Considered Foreigners in America?

Originally posted by IntrinsicMotivation
reply to post by frazzle

 

I do agree we are living in a rigged system and that the man appointed president does not really call the shots.

It is like this

“Peep out the CONcept, you got PROgress, you got CONgress,

You PROtest in hopes they CONfess, just PROceed on your CONquest”

Another issue I have can be found in my signature.

edit on 1-6-2013 by IntrinsicMotivation because: (no reason given)

Don't forget the CONstitution, which was written in secret by men of wealth and power. When they wrote the part of the preamble that promises to "secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity", they were not speaking to the people in a public forum but to each other in a closed room from which the public was barred. So who were they speaking of when they used the term "ourselves"?

Originally posted by IntrinsicMotivation

Originally posted by frazzle
Obama has never left off campaigning, especially whenever his approval ratings are tanking hard.

Well he can stop with it now that he cannot run for reelection in 2016

Ah, but he can still qualify for a UN post if he plays his cards right.

Originally posted by ParanoidAmerican
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

Nothing because I didn't say that, that was the other guy you debating with request proof yet providing none yourself......

First off, you are entirely correct that I was requesting proof from the other guy...forgive me. I had my schizophrenics confused with my paranoids. Mea Culpa.

As to the rest, I have a pretty good idea of the current lines of thought regarding the peopling of the Americas...and yes, pre-Clovis is now pretty much a given. Early man at Calico? Well, the jury is still out for a number of reasons, but the very fact that there is a debate is a healthy sign.

Originally posted by frazzle

Don't forget the CONstitution, which was written in secret by men of wealth and power. When they wrote the part of the preamble that promises to "secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity", they were not speaking to the people in a public forum but to each other in a closed room from which the public was barred. So who were they speaking of when they used the term "ourselves"?

LOL good catch with the CONstitution…..

I guess you could include the Declaration of Independence that stated “All men are created equal” yet was written by a man who owned slaves. So much for practicing what you preach…..

So who were these men that are created equal that was being referenced?

I also feel the Justice system is set up for “Just-Us”

Then in courthouses you can find some representation of “Themis” blindfolded holding the scales of justice.

Why is she blindfolded? Is it because justice is blind?

Originally posted by MidnightTide

Nope, I believe in equal opportunity for everyone. I just don't like the "poor me" attitude. I really don't know what you expect out of people. I know you think I am uncaring about Native Indians, but that is not true. I did state Natives did get screwed in their dealings with European settlers. But instead of the knee jerk, emotional reaction what do you want.

You want a holiday named after Native Americans? A month? You want Native American studies more prelevent in school?

Whatever you want, but at the end of the day what does it mean. Nothing. You are still stuck in a rut. I still do not see the point of this thread other then to bemoan the fact that Native American culture has been in decline for quite some time. As many cultures thought history, adapt or die.

If success in 'equal opportunity' means degrading other humans and having to believe that other people are yours to be conquered, then I'd rather not be successful, thanks. Your posts are quite misanthropic and don't show much of the caring you claim.

What should be changed is the structure of the education system so it properly informs white men of European descent that they have some serious issues in their culture. People should be taught to be immediately suspicious of history written by victors, particularly by those in their own culture. That is supposed to be the purpose of education - to help you understand reality. The purpose is not to indoctrinate us in the narrative of the powerful.

The point is, we are still living in the era of those who did this damage. The story of the destruction of the Native Americans is the story of Western industrial colonialism in action. People should leant about and remember the destruction caused by this culture because it's the only way to stop it happening again.

You might accept that every culture must be brutal to another culture, forever. Some of us do not.

reply to post by IntrinsicMotivation

So who were these men that are created equal that was being referenced?

The authors were men who gave themselves the authority to define what being a man is and in so doing elevated themselves to the level of gods. A lot of people still think of them that way and THAT, IMO, is the problem.

Anyone who thinks the courts are now, or ever have been about justice are the ones who are blind, at least legally blind.

Originally posted by frazzle

The authors were men who gave themselves the authority to define what being a man is and in so doing elevated themselves to the level of gods. A lot of people still think of them that way and THAT, IMO, is the problem.

Anyone who thinks the courts are now, or ever have been about justice are the ones who are blind, at least legally blind.

edit on 1-6-2013 by frazzle because: (no reason given)

You have hit the nail on the head Frazzle

I have voiced this in another thread

They do not teach us the Law in public education and there is literally thousands of statutes, codes, ordinances, laws and regulations that vary in each municipality from coast to coast.

Once again it is like we are being set up to fail by public education.

How can my parents teach me all of the laws, when they were never taught them?

There are plenty of useless laws out there but we can save that for a new thread

I just want to say to those who are pulling the strings, y’all could use a little bit of this


@MidnightTide, this one’s for you since you seem to be lacking in it

Originally posted by IntrinsicMotivation

Originally posted by frazzle

The authors were men who gave themselves the authority to define what being a man is and in so doing elevated themselves to the level of gods. A lot of people still think of them that way and THAT, IMO, is the problem.

Anyone who thinks the courts are now, or ever have been about justice are the ones who are blind, at least legally blind.

edit on 1-6-2013 by frazzle because: (no reason given)

You have hit the nail on the head Frazzle

I have voiced this in another thread

They do not teach us the Law in public education and there is literally thousands of statutes, codes, ordinances, laws and regulations that vary in each municipality from coast to coast.

Once again it is like we are being set up to fail by public education.

How can my parents teach me all of the laws, when they were never taught them?

There are plenty of useless laws out there but we can save that for a new thread

Its good to know I'm not the only one with a hammer! All we can do is try to keep pounding nails into people consciousness until enough can see what ails us.

Its the "we've got to pass this bill so we can see what's in it" mentality that will bring the nation's rulers, otherwise known as lawyers, to their knees and that can't happen any too soon to suit me. Shakespeare was absolutely right about that.

BTW, I've been meaning to tell you how much I appreciate the work you put into creating this thread and that I've enjoyed every minute of participating on it. Thank you.

reply to post by IntrinsicMotivation

If attitudes do not change it does not look good statistically speaking. Will you remember the plight of Native Americans?

In 1997, New York State attempted to enforce taxation of Indian gasoline and cigarettes. The attempt was thwarted after numerous Senecas protested by setting fire to tires and cutting off traffic to Interstate 90 and New York State Route 17 (the future Interstate 86).[26]

Seneca People
With all due respect, why should I continue to remember tears that were shed over 100 years ago? What about the joy today? Why dwell on plight? Drive I-90 in New York...

The relationship between the Seneca Nation and the surrounding population has been contentious, both in regard to excise tax advantages and in regard to property rights. In the 1990s, the Senecas won a prolonged court battle to assume ownership of all land on their reservation, including that owned by private non-Senecas, and demanded the previous owners all sign leases with the nation or be evicted.[7] In 2012, the Senecas ordered a mass eviction of eighty residents of Snyder Beach on the Cattaraugus Reservation, deeming their presence a long-standing "illegal occupation".[7]

Seneca Nation

The sign comes months after the tribe claims it voided its Thruway right-of-way land agreement with the state. The tribe is charging the state $28,000 a day for travel...so far the bill due is four million and nine dollars.

Rochester Home Page

Originally posted by IntrinsicMotivation

Originally posted by HelenConway
reply to post by IntrinsicMotivation

 

What would the USA look like if the Native Americans were asked to form a govt - were back in charge ??
What would be different ?

Native Americans have governments. They are called Tribal governments and supersede state authorities on the reservation.

A Brief Overview of Native American Sovereign Nation Status

Native American tribes are political entities with extensive powers of self-government. The political status of tribes actually precedes the formation of the Constitution and the United States.

The first U.S. government treaty with a tribe was negotiated in 1778. Through a series of treaties, laws, Presidential resolutions1, case law, and Supreme Court rulings the U.S. has shaped the scope of tribal sovereignty.

Four kinds of sovereign governments are recognized in U.S. law: the federal government, state government, foreign governments, and tribal governments.

The phrase “government to government” that is sometimes used in civic life refers to this unique status
that Native American tribes hold in relation to the U.S. government.

Tribal governments have self-governance powers that include: the right to form their own government; the
power to make and enforce both civil and criminal laws; the power to tax; the power to establish membership; the
right to license, zone and regulate activities; the power to engage in commercial activity; and the power to exclude
persons (Indian and non-Indian) from tribal territories.

You can read further Here

Haho - I Greet You!

Concerning Tribal Governments, and what is written down on paper does not make it a government. Other nations that have a government and that are looked upon by other nations through out the world have mutual respect for each other, now with Tribal Governments and its governing body composed of their tribal members who are elected and hold terms of a specified time, according to their constitution and bylaws.
Every thing that makes a government sovereign is the right to exercise their laws and ways on theor own people, and to make a long story short, tribal governments are like a front or a show, like in them old days like the "Wild West with Buffalo Bill and the Indians" Meaning, them Tribal Governements CANNOT do anything without the approval of the Bureau of Indian Affairs a part of the Department of the Interior of the United States Government.
My mother is and has been a part of the governing part of my tribe and to hear of the embezzling and stealing from tribal employees and non tribal employees is out of control, just does not make sense that our right to venture in this world and be self sufficient with gambling institutions and who benefits? Its not the tribal members. Just recently, we had tribal legislatures convicted of embezzlement and taking of bribes, and the State of Wisconsin absing their authority with the compacts that created this organization that regulates our casino's (we have many casino's and the last i heard was making gross 350 million every quarter and there are four quarters in a year) and over 80 percent of the workforce is non-tribal members , including all supervisor positions (and they keep their own kind working and make it difficult for tribal members to obtain employment) and the last general council the President of our Tribe missed being booted out by 55 votes and do to the bad weather at the time, he was lucky.
Now, i can only talk bout my own tribe and i know their are many issue's in Indian Country, like our rights to worship God, our right to keep our sacred lands, so many issues. Freedom they say in this awesome country, my people been doing their best to part of this country. I think of my nephew who got the highest medal any citizen could recieve for defending this country, so its not that we are not team players.
Many of my people are on welfare, and hand outs. Not because they want to or expect to be this way, really bad when your tribe makes good money and its tribal members are a burden on all tax payers! For those like that, I say we are sorry!

A very interesting thread.

As an African (of white minority descent), I do wonder about the focus on particularly North American indigenous nations.

Invariably any bookshop here will have great books on the "American Indians", except that it is all about North America, specifically the US.

Unless ordered, there are no books on Central or South American nations, except the historic Incas or Aztecs (the "great civilizations", in the same sense as the ancient Greeks or Romans).

Paging through the books, when they reach the contemporary history, why is there no connected politics with Amazonian peoples, or the plains tribes from Chile or Argentina (for example)?

I know such connections have existed, but why is pan-Indianism across the Americas downplayed?

Especially as former terms like "First/Second/Third-World" are redundant, and the world thinks of North/South issues, are the Native Americans really the indigenous people of the Geo-political North, and despite their suffering, they also benefit as the emblematic aboriginal people of the world?
In other words, does their positioning actually make them part of the very system that has also abused them?

Should native peoples from North America draw more attention to the native peoples and struggles of the South?
Currently they do seem very fenced off as "Americans", rather than "native" peoples.
Perhaps it's not deliberate, but an inherited discourse, although one ostensibly sees very little activism to counter the impression.

reply to post by halfoldman

Should native peoples from North America draw more attention to the native peoples and struggles of the South?
Currently they do seem very fenced off as "Americans", rather than "native" peoples.
Perhaps it's not deliberate, but an inherited discourse, although one ostensibly sees very little activism to counter the impression.

I'm probably not the one who can best answer your question but there has been a great deal of north/south cooperation, conferencing and joint celebrations over the years that never receive much attention outside the participants themselves and academia. The fence making, I think, is more a main stream media affair, in conjunction with the department of education. Someone please correct me if that's wrong.

utpress.utexas.edu...

reply to post by frazzle


Many of the tribes living in the South simply want to be left alone.

They are not interested in interacting with Western ways and live for the most part, they live way they have lived for thousands of years. In that regards few years ago due to circumstances a helicopter happed upon an indigenous tribe in South America.

The natives pointed bows and arrows and were prepared to fire them if the craft came and closer. I am sure they understood they could not harm the vehicle they were just prepared to fight. The two cultures share everything in common when it come to many fundamentals but when it comes to symbolism the differences can be vast. In a way that is kind of strange if in fact we are all have the same origins.

Hence the politics of the time and in example the labeling of the Western Hemisphere as the "New World".

I once watched a documentary on chimpanzees living in the wild. At some point in the show all the males formed a line and marched off and based upon the person explaining there actions, began traveling about their Territory.

At one of the edges of what speaker described as their territory they encountered another group of Chimps eating fruit from a tree. they organized themselves and preformed a surprise attack that killed all the other Chimpanzees. Afterwards the children present of the offending tribe were eaten and no real explanation was offered for this behavior.

For me any way when I think of how advanced all of us are I often wonder if the industrial revolution was analogous to the Terrible Two's. You see that is a time when what are called "cones" in the eye's begin to form and the child depth perception increases and seeing in color becomes possible.

In the United States and approached a card carrying member of the Klu Klux Klan you might find that they, like members of the American Nazi Party. Believe that Adam and Eve where white and when they were tasked to pick names for all the animals that included humans who were not white.

Any thoughts?

reply to post by Kashai


Could anyone blame them for shunning western ways? Even many westerners are sick and tired of western ways.

But there is interaction among first nations, native americans and south american tribes.

The eagle meets the condor ~

bellaspark.com...
mohawknationnews.com...

An old prophecy says:

"When the Condor of the South meets the Eagle of the North, the warriors of the rainbow will be born. When the tears from these birds are merged, the warriors of light will be born.”
www.nativespiritfoundation.org...

reply to post by chachonee


Thank you for pointing that out Chachonee.

So did you agree with the actions of “AIM” and there brief takeover of the BIA in the early 70’s?

I can tell you that when I first learned of this I was inspired. Had I been alive and able, I would have been there myself.

As for Casinos on tribal lands, it is a touchy subject. Gambling is the worst addiction to be victim to. Have you ever lost your whole paycheck in less than 10 minutes? It can leave you in a very dark place wondering how you will make it to your next payday. Why would they put such institutions on tribal lands? Native Americans are highly susceptible to addiction.

Take the Puyallup tribe in Washington State. They have the Emerald Queen Casino, tribal members get benefits of $2,000 a month yet they have nothing to show for it. Wasted on addiction….

It is very sad, and yes there were plenty of non-Indian employees that worked there…..

reply to post by chachonee


Continued from my last post

I am sorry for my grammer mistakes, when speaking about life for some of us Natives gets me going, not every day we get the chance to express the way it is, many Natives do not expect anything and would be nice if we could get a chance to make life better for our own.
For a few generations our people been forced to adapt and be productive members of the society we now live in. When i was a young person, i grew up in a Native home, my parents made sure we knew how to conduct ourselves and how we were suppose to be with others.
Can you imagine how it was going to school with just two families of Natives in a public school of all white people? White teachers and all white curriculum concerning education. If you see my picture, i am not a light colored Native. Plus, being Native I was so involved in Native ways away from dealings with White people in our lands. So i had very long hair and going to school with non-natives, i fought from the first day of school to the very last day of school. You see, I had non-Natives threatening me not to stand with their family as i was going to recieve my diploma from successfully fulfilling the required courses of study.
I had a few instructors that felt bad for me, if i got good grades i was cheating and had to go to the principals office and take a separate test, and i even passed them tests, not once but every time there was a test in every class or subject i had. The school did not expect me to be smart i guess. I was into sports and excelled in the programs they had and to be in sports you had to have a certain grade point average, for everyone but me had to be 2.5 G.P.A.(Grade Point Average) and mine had to be 3.0
I did very good in sports to recieve a letter jacket and many medals to attach to my letterman jacket, everyone had a ceremony they do when they recieve this lettermen jacket, i did not from my class-mates nor was i invited to their dances. One of the teachers that was a coach, held a private ceremony with a few class-mates(those i stuck up for and they became my friend) and my Dad and Grandfather got to come and see a coach give me these awards.
Same time as i was growing up with going to public school, i was going to many types of ceremonies that dealt with nothing but Natives. I always read from non-natives that we lost our ways, we do not know where we come from, and i am here to let you know that we do know. We did not come from anywhere else but right here.
On my Fathers side, I am from the Elk Clan and when the United States and along with white settlers in our lands wanted the lead, the copper, the land for farming they got rid of every native and my ancestor on my Fathers side was one of those natives who dealt with the United States Government, he was a chief, his name was Little Elk, the Great Orator and went to Washington D.C., and talked to the leaders of the United States and on my mothers side i had another Chief that was named Chief WhirlingThunder.
In order for someone to hear our stories of how we come to be here, there is a process and many non-Natives took it upon themselves to learn and get the information, when the non-Natives first come to our lands was something to tell.
There was this man named Jean Nicollet and he had some black robes(Jesuit's) and they had native guides who were converted to non-Native ways who were further East, as it was common. They landed on the shores in Green Bay , Wisconsin and long story short, the natives(Ho-Chunk Nation) entertained the non-natives while they took the natives to another area and killed them and used them as the meat in the soup, then invited the non-natives to eat, and they did. Afterwards, the non-natives were asking for their guides and the natives from Green Bay, Wisconsin told them that they already ate their guides and should know the way home.(in our feasts you eat everything up as i know that is what them non-natives did)
There is a few Reservations through-out the United States that are closed, meaning they do not have to deal with public law-280 like a majority of the tribal governments have to deal with. Also, in the North not to long ago, the Natives up there found a part in some treaty and tried to exercise them rights to gather fish, the non-native people in them communities got very upset that natives were taking all the game fish, fish that potential tourists that go to these areas and take their vacations, there was not to much going on at that time for anything but tourism, until now with the mining(guess the non-natives took care of that) and if you really think it over, non-natives have not been in this country to long, and really enjoy all the attempts by non-natives today who claim that their white people come here long before us.
Ever wonder why this land is separate from the other land masses, like Europe?

Originally posted by IntrinsicMotivation
reply to post by chachonee

 

Thank you for pointing that out Chachonee.

So did you agree with the actions of “AIM” and there brief takeover of the BIA in the early 70’s?

I can tell you that when I first learned of this I was inspired. Had I been alive and able, I would have been there myself.

As for Casinos on tribal lands, it is a touchy subject. Gambling is the worst addiction to be victim to. Have you ever lost your whole paycheck in less than 10 minutes? It can leave you in a very dark place wondering how you will make it to your next payday. Why would they put such institutions on tribal lands? Native Americans are highly susceptible to addiction.

Take the Puyallup tribe in Washington State. They have the Emerald Queen Casino, tribal members get benefits of $2,000 a month yet they have nothing to show for it. Wasted on addiction….

It is very sad, and yes there were plenty of non-Indian employees that worked there…..

Haho
I was alive when the B.I.A., had assessed the natives and decided to grant them bingo, to help them get off the welfare system in the states the natives lived in, and later graduated to full blown casino like Las Vegas. I was there too when the tribe tried to get money to start the gambling venture, no one would loan the tribe money-too risky!
Most people in this country do not know that many natives are connected, more so now than ever due to the internet.
I think the B.I.A., just did not roll out of bed one morning and decide to grant the Natives Gambling! Now that i said that, watch the books get re-written and broadcast it in some media circle, for futher reference. Yes, I agree with the Semi-Free Money that "Some" tribal members get from casino profits, now called Per Capita Payments that are regulated by the compact made between the tribe and the state the gambling is in.
Like my children that come of age, they do not get their per cap till they reach 18 years old and have to have their high school diploma or wait till they are 25 years old to get their per cap(many wait and do not go to school due to the :Hate" they get from non-natives-over per cap and the so called free money.
Some of my kids got close to a quarter million dollars when they turn of age and after that recieve 3,000.00 dollars every three months and we have close to 7,000 total tribal members in the one branch of the Ho-Chunk Nation and just part of the many other tribes and each one claims to be the parent tribe(of course) and how my tribe treats the non-natives in our communities, like they give the county sheriff's money and heard it was alot like 280,000.00 dollars and they pay taxes to the communities they have the gambling going on and fix the roads and highways in the communities, buy squad cars, fire trucks and etc., to the non-natives.
In our business ventures, 80 percent of the workforce is non-tribal members and the ones that are employed is mostly government and very few in the upper crust of business, either way not to many tribal members.
So, who was this all designed for?
The other question was if i agreed with the takeover of a federal building and many other places? Personally, I believe that it was a waste of time. No matter what, if you can get over negative issue's and still live and bring up the young ones with same teachings i was raised with, when i fought in public school, to me it was right at the moment but later in life it did me no good, i could of just took the beatings and walked away, till they were tired of beating me down, tune them out when they threw racial slurs at me and carry myself in the best way i can with what i have available. My Father was at many of them American Indian Movement events, from the island off the coast of California to the East in the Federal Building and in the plains with Wounded Knee. There is even stories of my ancestors in the past at Custer's Last Stand.
Where i live now, it is awesome. I walk on the sidewalk and wave at my neighbors and my kids play and get along with the neighborhood kids, sure there are a few stern looks and the occasional stares, but all in all it is a awesome place to raise my sons who are in a public school and get awesome grades, and like school.
Life is how you make it! I know that if you want to live in chaos,it is not to far from your home to enjoy that environment or create a safe place.

In the most basic of terms when considering how humans treat(ed) humans:

Natural Selection exists at the Human on Human level too.

Sure, we can turn the other cheek, get along....coexist...etc, but we aren't built that way. At least not a majority of us.

I would like to add these videos produced by my brother YG Preach in Tacoma, Washington. We grew up struggling together and is who I started my venture as an independent artist with. Unfortunately YG no longer raps. He attained his bachelor’s degree from Evergreen State College and works with at risk youth in the city of Tacoma.

On his spare time he now produces videos for local artist and this is some of his production work. Helping bring words to life through visuals.

PS- Contains words that express pain and anger

Music by Natives in the North West




This is the voice of those who are a product of the environment that had been forced on upon them…..