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Yes, but as has been mentioned many times now, the desire for freedom from suffering is something that one will become detached from as well. That doesn't mean you create a new desire to be free from the previous one, it just means you become detached from that first desire.
It's not a paradox like you seem to be suggesting. It's a normal part of the process. Of course a desire for freedom from desire must come first, only then can anything be done about it.
I can honestly say that I am happy and I am free from the desire to live, and even exist.
It's all about perspective. If you perceive the 3D reality as the only thing there is, you will always end up disappointed and frustrated. But when you are able to see beyond that, you won't have a care 'in the world'.
This is all about FEAR! When you have faced the worst of your fears, you will be free from desire.
Originally posted by Damsel
Originally posted by Manula
How can you know what joy is if you haven't felt sad?
How can you know what love is if you haven't felt hate?
How can you know what self-esteem is if you haven't felt like the worst person in the world?
We live and learn in the dance of duality, that's how it is, its highly illogical to say otherwise,
Get used to it.
Can you be happy in a world where joy and sadness exist? Of course you can, but you have to accept this world first. as it is.
Then you will be happy, when you learn to love life with its black and white floor, like the masonic pavement.
The first line and last line of this post are complete contradictions. By your admission, you only can be happy if you know suffering. It is not guaranteed. It is not permanent. It is fleeting. Thus, it is not true happiness.
Don't fool yourself into thinking Buddhists want to shut out the bad and only let in the good. That's not the case. We aspire for detachment from all things. To reference a previous post of yours, we do not want "light" nor do we want "dark."
Freedom from suffering is permanent, unending, peace and happiness. How can anything be better? Please answer this question, because I've asked you many times now and you continue to avoid it. To what end should one continue to suffer in order to "grow" or "become strong" or "become wise"? What is the purpose, if not to be free from suffering? What goal is there that is greater than this?
This is existence and until you actually see it end, it is just an idea that it will.
I have wanted to not have life but it did not stop it. The desire for the end or the desire for it to never end is a pointless exercise.
What this is never began and will never end.
Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I understand what you are trying to say. But in my opinion it makes little sense.
You are saying that once the desire for freedom of desire is satiated, all desire will disappear. Then what is compelling one to remain free of desire?
Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I am playing devil's advocate. Feel free to disregard these arguments. Everyone just seems so blind in their convictions.
Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by Damsel
Yes, but as has been mentioned many times now, the desire for freedom from suffering is something that one will become detached from as well. That doesn't mean you create a new desire to be free from the previous one, it just means you become detached from that first desire.
It's not a paradox like you seem to be suggesting. It's a normal part of the process. Of course a desire for freedom from desire must come first, only then can anything be done about it.
I understand what you are trying to say. But in my opinion it makes little sense.
You are saying that once the desire for freedom of desire is satiated, all desire will disappear. Then what is compelling one to remain free of desire?
I am playing devil's advocate. Feel free to disregard these arguments. Everyone just seems so blind in their convictions.
Originally posted by Visitor2012
reply to post by Manula
Buddhism has turned into a fruitless religion and dogma. But don't blame Buddhism...blame the teachers of it. Buddhism's purpose is to bring you to a state of being FULLY present in every moment of your life. Which is a far stronger and more intense version of life, than merely experiencing life through the limited filter of the mind. More alive and intense than experiencing life through the images of "thought-ifcation". (Sorry, had to create a word). It's truly a flowering of life.. and a method of waking up. Sadly, I think most of the Western versions of Buddhism, have completely missed the point of it.
It would seem that the teachings from the Master's went no further than 20 feet. The rest is false interpretation and manipulative hog-wash.
Originally posted by Manula
That dream of an eternal joy on earth is even selfish, why not share some of the pain and suffering with other mortals?
Eternal light is not here....
You people come to earth and want to live here like you live in the spirit world.
This is world of pain sorrow, pleasure and joy
It has got it all, isn't it wonderful?
Love it like it is and you will feel much better.
Infants cant stand pain and suffering, why don't you grow up?
edit on 29-5-2013 by Manula because: (no reason given)
The idea is that once you don't want anything and are perfectly at peace in the present moment, why would you ever turn away from that?
I am certainly not enlightened or free from desire myself, and am merely repeating the ideas of others, but I find the ideas quite flawless and worth pursuing and supporting.
Originally posted by Baddogma
reply to post by arpgme
So the height of existence we can expect in this life is to lose all want? Isn't that, technically, death?
Originally posted by Baddogma
I see the meaning, but carried through it leads to the above thought. Isn't will, or desire, our prime motivator for keeping our biomass chugging? Without it we would just literally curl up and die... and I'm not saying that's definitely a bad thing... but am I incorrect?
Originally posted by Manula
That dream of an eternal joy on earth is even selfish, why not share some of the pain and suffering with other mortals?
Eternal light is not here....
You people come to earth and want to live here like you live in the spirit world.
This is world of pain sorrow, pleasure and joy
It has got it all, isn't it wonderful?
Love it like it is and you will feel much better.
Infants cant stand pain and suffering, why don't you grow up?
edit on 29-5-2013 by Manula because: (no reason given)
What's selfish about 'eternal joy on earth'?
Originally posted by Manula
That dream of an eternal joy on earth is even selfish, why not share some of the pain and suffering with other mortals?
Yes, it is. Eternal light is everywhere and nowhere. It is that which the universe is composed of. If it's not here now, where and when else could it be?
Eternal light is not here....
What makes this world any less of a 'spirit world'? There is no 'you people', there is only you. Only one consciousness exists, and you have it. You are God, experiencing God as God. If you choose to suffer, so be it. But it would be wise if you knocked it off.
You people come to earth and want to live here like you live in the spirit world.
And I choose not to feel any more pain or sorrow. I've already gone through millions and millions of lives of suffering. This is my last.
This is world of pain sorrow, pleasure and joy
Yes, it really is.
It has got it all, isn't it wonderful?
If you love the suffering, you're not suffering (at least not emotionally). Get it?
Love it like it is and you will feel much better.
Nobody can stand suffering. If they could, they wouldn't be suffering. Get it??
Infants cant stand pain and suffering, why don't you grow up?
Originally posted by mideast
Buddhism is a religion ?
Who is the messenger ?
Buddhism is what western govts want people to be.
And that is one reason that it is not right.
Originally posted by Damsel
Originally posted by Manula
That dream of an eternal joy on earth is even selfish, why not share some of the pain and suffering with other mortals?
Eternal light is not here....
You people come to earth and want to live here like you live in the spirit world.
This is world of pain sorrow, pleasure and joy
It has got it all, isn't it wonderful?
Love it like it is and you will feel much better.
Infants cant stand pain and suffering, why don't you grow up?
edit on 29-5-2013 by Manula because: (no reason given)
You don't seem to get Buddhism. We're all with you on the whole "accept things as they are, accept the 'good' and the 'bad' with equanimity, etc" thing. That's great. But then you throw in "keep suffering" and that's where the disagreement is.
So, for the last time: WHY KEEP SUFFERING IF WE CAN BE FREE OF IT FOREVER?
Certainly if you truly accepted everything with equanimity, you would not have suffering. But you still have craving and you still have clinging.edit on 5/29/2013 by Damsel because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by Manula
You people are attached to a certain way of living, calm, peaceful, no up and downs, be free, do what you want, desire one day, let go the day after, you can live the white if you can live the black.... you people are putting a leash on yourselves...
Oh and about freedom, freedom is... being able to choose what is important at any given moment, its being able to do what you want and be brave enough to live with the consequences. Just a definition, there are plenty...
Originally posted by HarryTZ
What's selfish about 'eternal joy on earth'?
Originally posted by Manula
That dream of an eternal joy on earth is even selfish, why not share some of the pain and suffering with other mortals?
Yes, it is. Eternal light is everywhere and nowhere. It is that which the universe is composed of. If it's not here now, where and when else could it be?
Eternal light is not here....
What makes this world any less of a 'spirit world'? There is no 'you people', there is only you. Only one consciousness exists, and you have it. You are God, experiencing God as God. If you choose to suffer, so be it. But it would be wise if you knocked it off.
You people come to earth and want to live here like you live in the spirit world.
And I choose not to feel any more pain or sorrow. I've already gone through millions and millions of lives of suffering. This is my last.
This is world of pain sorrow, pleasure and joy
Yes, it really is.
It has got it all, isn't it wonderful?
If you love the suffering, you're not suffering (at least not emotionally). Get it?
Love it like it is and you will feel much better.
Nobody can stand suffering. If they could, they wouldn't be suffering. Get it??
Infants cant stand pain and suffering, why don't you grow up?