Why Buddha says true freedom is freedom of desire...

reply to post by Damsel


There's no way to know what we have, or have not experienced in a past life.

When I was wrapped up in Eastern philosophy my belief was always that a soul sought out that which it was supposed to experience in each life. If, for example, in a previous life you experienced a tragic loss of a mother, or a father, than upon rebirth your soul would not seek that experience again, instead it would seek to fulfill the opposite: a well-structured family which support and love each other unconditionally, or something along those lines.

After all, the Buddha taught that a soul could willingly reincarnate, meaning that not all rebirth was the result of craving, clinging, or desire. Maybe your own soul is alive in another body now, not because its meant to "relinquish everything" this round, but because your soul is still seeking specific experiences which will make itself more complete upon the letting go.

Consider that you are still alive. You probably have a job, you at least own/use a computer, probably have a phone, maybe a television, books, a car, a purse/wallet, and all other manner of things. You individualized your avatar, your screen-name, and your words. If you truly believed, beyond the shadow of all doubt, that this life was the life when you would relinquish all things---possessions, ego, individuality, experiences---then you probably wouldn't have buried yourself so deep inside of all that life has to offer.

The Buddha's words were forward-thinking for the time. People flocked to him---whether historically or mythologically---because his words offered a light in the dark: a way to understand themselves and the culture in which they lived at the time. When you spend your whole life living in a caste system, where possession puts you above or below your fellow man, and somebody comes along telling you that possessions are not the value of the individual --- it's going to turn some heads. The Buddha spoke to those who craved change, and understanding. The same way his words reach those today who seek a different approach to life and living.

If you believe, though, that by just hearing him speak you were enlightened then I think you've missed the point of the Noble Eight-Fold Path. There is a right way to live, to speak, to think, to act, etc. More than just listening to Buddha, you had to live his ideals to truly receive his enlightened state.

Perhaps Buddhism has changed though, in the decade since I studied it. In my experience though, religion and faith change slowly, begrudgingly, and not without a bit fit from all the parties involved. Since I haven't heard of any new schools popping up in the past decade I'm going to assume most of what the Buddha taught that can be read in various Buddhist collections, is still the foundation for Buddhism.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

There's no way to know what we have, or have not experienced in a past life.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. There are plenty of cases to show otherwise. Here's a fun one:

nell-rose.hubpages.com...

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
Consider that you are still alive. You probably have a job, you at least own/use a computer, probably have a phone, maybe a television, books, a car, a purse/wallet, and all other manner of things. You individualized your avatar, your screen-name, and your words. If you truly believed, beyond the shadow of all doubt, that this life was the life when you would relinquish all things---possessions, ego, individuality, experiences---then you probably wouldn't have buried yourself so deep inside of all that life has to offer.

My point is not that this life has to be the life when you would relinquish all things and become enlightened. My point is that it could be, for myself and everyone. There's nothing stopping us from becoming enlightened other than ourselves. There's no need for specific experiences if one wants to become enlightened.

You pose things in a way where we should just do nothing and continue living through Samsara mindlessly, as if we're all already on the path to enlightenment and it's just a matter of collecting experiences in order to get there, but that's not what Buddhism is. The Buddha would never have taught anyone the Dhamma if this were the case, as it would be pointless to do so; everyone would become enlightened eventually anyway. He taught the Dhamma because he knew people could become enlightened now, without the need of any experiences, and he never turned anyone down because they lacked the proper amount of life experiences.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
If you believe, though, that by just hearing him speak you were enlightened then I think you've missed the point of the Noble Eight-Fold Path. There is a right way to live, to speak, to think, to act, etc. More than just listening to Buddha, you had to live his ideals to truly receive his enlightened state.

You misunderstand. There are mentions in the Pali canon of those who attained the first stage of sainthood--sotapanna/stream-enterer/first stage of enlightenment--just by hearing the Dhamma from the Buddha; the idea being that the Buddha was able to phrase it in exactly the way the person he was speaking to needed to hear it, which had a profound effect on their mindset. I'm not saying one could become enlightened just by hearing the Buddha's voice or that it's possible to become enlightened merely by reading his teachings or anything like that.

OMG you people want to post, you post.
You want to get up from bed, you get up.
You want to speak, you speak.
You want to smile, you smile.
You want to dress, you get dressed.
OMG this discussion is just... I wont even say it.

Are you people will-less zombies?

Denying wanting is just impossible.

Forget about it.

What you need is to learn how to handle not having your wanting satisfied.

Its a question of attachment, recognizing the ever lasting changes, and learn to enjoy what is present, even if you are trying to change it.

I will enjoy what is here and now while I co-create the future.

Whats the problem?

You guys are afraid to live, you hide from life... You lack courage and wisdom to handle it.

So do you WANT to answer my post?

reply to post by Manula


I saw what you wrote and what I said here was just a natural response. No feeling of "lack" necessary.

I don't need to be desiring pizza or anything specific in order to eat. The stomach feels a bit empty and I just go and get the food.

I already gave a definition to what I was talking about when I used the word "desire". I am talking about feeling incomplete and this is caused by beliefs which makes one forget that one is always whole - remembering that one is always whole will make one feel satisfied but life still continues, just not the longing and hurting.

Do or not do, there is no want.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Manula

 

I saw what you wrote and what I said here was just a natural response. No feeling of "lack" necessary.

I don't need to be desiring pizza or anything specific in order to eat. The stomach feels a bit empty and I just go and get the food.

I already gave a definition to what I was talking about when I used the word "desire". I am talking about feeling incomplete and this is caused by beliefs which makes one forget that one is always whole - remembering that one is always whole will make one feel satisfied but life still continues, just not the longing and hurting.

Do or not do, there is no want.

Dont be afraid to live with passion and enthusiasm. You people are too radical.

What if you strongly desire something? No problem, you will handle frustration if it happens. Adversity is the teacher, its the master, we wont get wiser without adversity.
Adversity is good!!! Dont be afraid to feel bad. Its good, it will make you grow, it will make you wiser because you night to know darkness and light, not just light.

Relax you can take it if you think of it as normal and necessary to evolve.

reply to post by Manula


It's not about being afraid to live. To me, it's about having control over my emotions. I don't want my happiness to be dictated by how good I am at controlling everything around me. That is what causes aggression and close-mindedness.

It would prefer to not let my happiness be dictated by physical things or absences around me. Of course I still have preferences but they are no longer "longed for", but yes I will act on them without longing.

Originally posted by Manula
Dont be afraid to live with passion and enthusiasm. You people are too radical.

What if you strongly desire something? No problem, you will handle frustration if it happens. Adversity is the teacher, its the master, we wont get wiser without adversity.
Adversity is good!!! Dont be afraid to feel bad. Its good, it will make you grow, it will make you wiser because you night to know darkness and light, not just light.

Relax you can take it if you think of it as normal and necessary to evolve.

I've never understood this "suffering is good" idea some people have. Why is it good? "It will make you grow ... make you wiser"? To what end? Why "grow" or become wise if not to eradicate suffering? What could be better than freedom from suffering?

reply to post by Damsel


I think people say things like that to sound mystical and wise. People are in heaven trying to get to heaven -- and they go through hell in the process.

reply to post by Damsel


Exactly. Some people claim to want to get rid of suffering and then they defend it with statements such as these. You do not need to "suffer" to grow or learn. Learning and Growing can be fun. Even teachers today are finding new ways to teach in a more fun and less stressful way.

Originally posted by Damsel

Originally posted by Manula
Dont be afraid to live with passion and enthusiasm. You people are too radical.

What if you strongly desire something? No problem, you will handle frustration if it happens. Adversity is the teacher, its the master, we wont get wiser without adversity.
Adversity is good!!! Dont be afraid to feel bad. Its good, it will make you grow, it will make you wiser because you night to know darkness and light, not just light.

Relax you can take it if you think of it as normal and necessary to evolve.

I've never understood this "suffering is good" idea some people have. Why is it good? "It will make you grow ... make you wiser"? To what end? Why "grow" or become wise if not to eradicate suffering? What could be better than freedom from suffering?

Suffering and pain are necessary, you wouldn't know what the opposite is. And, if you dont experience it, you wont know how it feels it makes you a better person.

After a good period people become selfish... They need pain and suffering to return to reality.

If you can endure hardimes you are strong, you grow, you are mature, if you cant handle it, then you need some more.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Manula

 

It's not about being afraid to live. To me, it's about having control over my emotions. I don't want my happiness to be dictated by how good I am at controlling everything around me. That is what causes aggression and close-mindedness.

It would prefer to not let my happiness be dictated by physical things or absences around me. Of course I still have preferences but they are no longer "longed for", but yes I will act on them without longing.

Enjoy desire and enjoy frustration, they all have something good to offer, discover it. dark and light, they are both good, but you have to learn to appreciate them. dont be afraid of them

reply to post by Manula


Selfishness is reality. It happens all the time, whether it be for approval from others for their own SELF happiness or going out to seek happiness.

You don't need to know suffering to know peace. A baby in its mother's womb is in peace and yet no suffering has happened yet. So, that is an untrue statement.

Originally posted by Manula
Suffering and pain are necessary, you wouldn't know what the opposite is. And, if you dont experience it, you wont know how it feels it makes you a better person.

After a good period people become selfish... They need pain and suffering to return to reality.

If you can endure hardimes you are strong, you grow, you are mature, if you cant handle it, then you need some more.

You didn't answer my question, so I'll ask again: to what end? Why become strong? Why grow? Why mature? What's the point of doing any of that if not to reduce suffering in yourself and others?

If you want to say suffering and pain are necessary, fine, but every living thing has already experienced suffering, so why continue to experience it? Why say no to eradicating it forever?

Also

Originally posted by Manula
After a good period people become selfish... They need pain and suffering to return to reality.

If you let go of craving and clinging, why would you ever become selfish? It makes no sense.

Originally posted by Manula

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Manula

 

It's not about being afraid to live. To me, it's about having control over my emotions. I don't want my happiness to be dictated by how good I am at controlling everything around me. That is what causes aggression and close-mindedness.

It would prefer to not let my happiness be dictated by physical things or absences around me. Of course I still have preferences but they are no longer "longed for", but yes I will act on them without longing.

Enjoy desire and enjoy frustration, they all have something good to offer, discover it. dark and light, they are both good, but you have to learn to appreciate them. dont be afraid of them

You can't 'enjoy' desire. Desire is that feeling of if only I had that... How is that enjoyable?

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by arpgme

 

Isn't freedom from desire also a desire? What if I desire health? What if I desire creativity? We should perhaps not get rid of desire, but desire the right things—that which is healthy. No?

'Get rid of your desires' A very powerful koan. But there is more to it then just the face value of the words. You didn't carry this intellectual yoga through thoroughly enough.

Actually, it's a step higher. It's "Freedom from the need to be free from desires".

It is very easy to spend an entire life, in the hamster wheel of that koan. One is supposed to awaken OUT of it. Truth is supposed to liberate you not turn you into a neurotic Schizo.

Our needs are simple and relatively inexpensive.
Our wants are as big as our imaginations and egos will allow.
If you don't believe the OP just listen to someone the next time they have a breakdown.
You will hear them rave about what their wants and desires.

I think clarification is needed for what I am trying to say here:

Here is an example about the difference between Preference and Desire.

"I PREFER to eat pizza"

This means pizza is what I choose to eat, but if I can't get it , it doesn't matter I'll just go to the next preference.

"I WANT to eat pizza"

This means I am in the mood for pizza and really want it and if I can't get to eat it I'll feel angry because anything else is not what I really wanted.

"My WILL/INTENTION is to eat pizza"

This means that I am planning to do something based on a preference.

Desire means "I want it and I'll be disappointed if I can't get it". Preference means "I am choosing this but if for whatever reason it isn't here, oh well, I'll just choose my next preference".

Of course I "prefer" to live rather than die, and I "prefer" interaction rather than not. So of course, I still eat, drink, sleep, converse, and so on... but it is not a "desire" something being longed for. If it isn't here and can't be gotten then there is no need to "desire" because that longing/yearning will just create stress that doesn't need to be there.

Originally posted by arpgme
I think clarification is needed for what I am trying to say here:

Here is an example about the difference between Preference and Desire.

"I PREFER to eat pizza"

This means pizza is what I choose to eat, but if I can't get it , it doesn't matter I'll just go to the next preference.

"I WANT to eat pizza"

This means I am in the mood for pizza and really want it and if I can't get to eat it I'll feel angry because anything else is not what I really wanted.

"My WILL/INTENTION is to eat pizza"

This means that I am planning to do something based on a preference.

Desire means "I want it and I'll be disappointed if I can't get it". Preference means "I am choosing this but if for whatever reason it isn't here, oh well, I'll just choose my next preference".

Of course I "prefer" to live rather than die, and I "prefer" interaction rather than not. So of course, I still eat, drink, sleep, converse, and so on... but it is not a "desire" something being longed for. If it isn't here and can't be gotten then there is no need to "desire" because that longing/yearning will just create stress that doesn't need to be there.

As long as you are afraid to suffer, suffering will hunt you down, til you are not afraid anymore!!

reply to post by Visitor2012

'Get rid of your desires' A very powerful koan. But there is more to it then just the face value of the words. You didn't carry this intellectual yoga through thoroughly enough.

Actually, it's a step higher. It's "Freedom from the need to be free from desires".

It is very easy to spend an entire life, in the hamster wheel of that koan. One is supposed to awaken OUT of it. Truth is supposed to liberate you not turn you into a neurotic Schizo.

I haven't heard the word koan in a while.

"Freedom from the need to be free from desires"? That sounds like another desire to me. I'm sure you could carry this on ad infinitum, until you realize your desires are necessary and a part of being human. You might have to get back on that hamster wheel for a while.