Why Buddha says true freedom is freedom of desire...

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


It's things you say like this that make it extremely hard to believe you considered yourself Buddhist and lived(?) in a monastery.

Originally posted by Manula
As long as you are afraid to suffer, suffering will hunt you down, til you are not afraid anymore!!

Who's afraid? Fear has nothing to do with it. If one is afraid of suffering, then that's just another thing to give up before enlightenment.

I don't think you realize how freedom from suffering works.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
"Freedom from the need to be free from desires"? That sounds like another desire to me. I'm sure you could carry this on ad infinitum, until you realize your desires are necessary and a part of being human. You might have to get back on that hamster wheel for a while.

Then you're looking at it all wrong. You don't just sit around desiring freedom until you get it, you sit down and let go of everything, including any desire for freedom. That's not desire, it's detachment.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by Visitor2012

 

'Get rid of your desires' A very powerful koan. But there is more to it then just the face value of the words. You didn't carry this intellectual yoga through thoroughly enough.

Actually, it's a step higher. It's "Freedom from the need to be free from desires".

It is very easy to spend an entire life, in the hamster wheel of that koan. One is supposed to awaken OUT of it. Truth is supposed to liberate you not turn you into a neurotic Schizo.

I haven't heard the word koan in a while.

"Freedom from the need to be free from desires"? That sounds like another desire to me. I'm sure you could carry this on ad infinitum, until you realize your desires are necessary and a part of being human. You might have to get back on that hamster wheel for a while.

You misunderstand the term. Thinking that by ridding oneself of desire, they can find happiness, is the hamster wheel I'm referring to. Which is what that koan is meant to reveal.. A person who understands the koan, who sees through the illusion, will cast the whole game into the fire.

Freedom from the bondage of needing to extinguish desire in order to find happiness. It's stepping OFF the wheel. Get it now?

The fool is wandering if he should desire this or not desire that..... The liberated one is doing NO such nonsense.

reply to post by arpgme

So the height of existence we can expect in this life is to lose all want? Isn't that, technically, death?

I see the meaning, but carried through it leads to the above thought. Isn't will, or desire, our prime motivator for keeping our biomass chugging? Without it we would just literally curl up and die... and I'm not saying that's definitely a bad thing... but am I incorrect?

Freedom is the goal of life. Without freedom, life has no meaning at all. By "freedom" is not meant any political, social or economic freedom. By "freedom" is meant freedom from time, freedom from mind, freedom from desire.The moment mind is no more, you are one with the universe, you are as vast as the universe itself.

It is the mind that is the barrier between you and the reality, and because of this barrier you remain confined in a dark cell where no light ever reaches and where no joy can ever penetrate. You live in misery because you are not meant to live in such a small, confined space. Your being wants to expand to the very ultimate source of existence. Your being longs to be oceanic, and you have become a dewdrop.

How can you be happy? How can you be blissful? Man lives in misery because man lives imprisoned.

And Gautama the Buddha says that tanha -- desire -- is the root cause of all our misery, because desire creates the mind. Desire means creating future, projecting yourself in the future, bringing tomorrow in. Bring the tomorrow in and the today disappears, you cannot see it anymore; your eyes are clouded by the tomorrow. Bring the tomorrow in and you will have to carry the load of all your yesterdays, because the tomorrow can only be there if the yesterdays go on nourishing it.

Each desire is born out of the past and each desire is projected in the future. The past and the future, they constitute your whole mind. Analyze the mind, dissect it, and you will find only two things: the past and the future. You will not find even an iota of the present, not even a single atom. And the present is the only reality, the only existence, the only dance there is.

The present can be found only when mind has ceased utterly. When the past no more overpowers you and the future no more possesses you, when you are disconnected from the memories and the imaginations, in that moment where are you? who are you? In that moment you are a nobody. And nobody can hurt you when you are a nobody, you cannot be wounded -- because the ego is very ready to receive wounds. The ego is almost seeking and searching to be wounded; it exists through wounds. Its whole existence depends on misery, pain.

--Master Osho

Originally posted by Damsel

Originally posted by Manula
As long as you are afraid to suffer, suffering will hunt you down, til you are not afraid anymore!!

Who's afraid? Fear has nothing to do with it. If one is afraid of suffering, then that's just another thing to give up before enlightenment.

I don't think you realize how freedom from suffering works.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
"Freedom from the need to be free from desires"? That sounds like another desire to me. I'm sure you could carry this on ad infinitum, until you realize your desires are necessary and a part of being human. You might have to get back on that hamster wheel for a while.

Then you're looking at it all wrong. You don't just sit around desiring freedom until you get it, you sit down and let go of everything, including any desire for freedom. That's not desire, it's detachment.

Detachment is being able to let go without a negative reaction.
You can wish something and at the same time be able to live well without it.
I am just saying that there is room for everything we adapt to circumstances. One day i may desire, the other i let go easily.

Just don't be too radical and single minded, why would you. There is unity in diversity, there is room for every colors, everything is not just black and white.

Originally posted by Manula

You can wish something and at the same time be able to live well without it.

If you can live well without it, why bring yourself the pain of desire? Why create a longing where there is already peace and contentment? Why interrupt that experience with a 'wish'?

You people are attached to a certain way of living, calm, peaceful, no up and downs, be free, do what you want, desire one day, let go the day after, you can live the white if you can live the black.... you people are putting a leash on yourselves...

Oh and about freedom, freedom is... being able to choose what is important at any given moment, its being able to do what you want and be brave enough to live with the consequences. Just a definition, there are plenty...

reply to post by Damsel

Then you're looking at it all wrong. You don't just sit around desiring freedom until you get it, you sit down and let go of everything, including any desire for freedom. That's not desire, it's detachment.

desire |dəˈzī(ə)r|
noun
a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen: [ with infinitive ] : a desire to work in the dirt with your bare hands.
• strong sexual feeling or appetite: they were clinging together in fierce mutual desire.
verb [ with obj. ]
strongly wish for or want (something): he never achieved the status he so desired | (as adj. desired) : it failed to create the desired effect.
• want (someone) sexually: there had been a time, years ago, when he had desired her.
• archaic express a wish to (someone); request or entreat.

I thought we were talking about desire. Can one not desire detachment and freedom? How does one do anything without first desiring it? By mistake? By chance?

One doesn't just sit around and detachment just appears, one needs to want it first.

Originally posted by HarryTZ

Originally posted by Manula

You can wish something and at the same time be able to live well without it.

If you can live well without it, why bring yourself the pain of desire? Why create a longing where there is already peace and contentment? Why interrupt that experience with a 'wish'?

Why not? If you want to desire, if you want to feel the passion and the fire, dont be afraid, you will handle it! Be brave enough to live without fear.

If you don't like burning passion then ok, but if you like it but you are afraid to suffer.... come on you can do better than that, be brave and do what you really wanna do.

I just don't agree in not doing things we love because we are afraid to suffer... if that's the case then suffering will surely return until you don't fear it anymore...

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by Damsel

 

Then you're looking at it all wrong. You don't just sit around desiring freedom until you get it, you sit down and let go of everything, including any desire for freedom. That's not desire, it's detachment.

desire |dəˈzī(ə)r|
noun
a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen: [ with infinitive ] : a desire to work in the dirt with your bare hands.
• strong sexual feeling or appetite: they were clinging together in fierce mutual desire.
verb [ with obj. ]
strongly wish for or want (something): he never achieved the status he so desired | (as adj. desired) : it failed to create the desired effect.
• want (someone) sexually: there had been a time, years ago, when he had desired her.
• archaic express a wish to (someone); request or entreat.

I thought we were talking about desire. Can one not desire detachment and freedom? How does one do anything without first desiring it? By mistake? By chance?

One doesn't just sit around and detachment just appears, one needs to want it first.

Yes, but as has been mentioned many times now, the desire for freedom from suffering is something that one will become detached from as well. That doesn't mean you create a new desire to be free from the previous one, it just means you become detached from that first desire.

It's not a paradox like you seem to be suggesting. It's a normal part of the process. Of course a desire for freedom from desire must come first, only then can anything be done about it.

Originally posted by Manula

Originally posted by HarryTZ

Originally posted by Manula

You can wish something and at the same time be able to live well without it.

If you can live well without it, why bring yourself the pain of desire? Why create a longing where there is already peace and contentment? Why interrupt that experience with a 'wish'?

Why not? If you want to desire, if you want to feel the passion and the fire, dont be afraid, you will handle it! Be brave enough to live without fear.

If you don't like burning passion then ok, but if you like it but you are afraid to suffer.... come on you can do better than that, be brave and do what you really wanna do.

I just don't agree in not doing things we love because we are afraid to suffer... if that's the case then suffering will surely return until you don't fear it anymore...

It's not about being afraid of suffering. Why fear fear?

Do what you love, but don't attach yourself to the outcomes. Live in the moment, with no thought about the past or the future.

I truly admire those who take risks, who are not afraid to feel frustrated or disappointed.
These people are my heroes, they live it like they want it, even knowing they can suffer later.
They can endure hard times. No pain, no gain.
They can take it, so they live it all in, they know the risks, they know what can happen but they are willing to live it like it is.

The world is full of pain and suffering, why would i escape, its part of the show.

You want light, then you must learn to handle the black.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

One doesn't just sit around and detachment just appears, one needs to want it first.

And then, once you have it, there is no want left.

Originally posted by HarryTZ

Originally posted by Manula

Originally posted by HarryTZ

Originally posted by Manula

You can wish something and at the same time be able to live well without it.

If you can live well without it, why bring yourself the pain of desire? Why create a longing where there is already peace and contentment? Why interrupt that experience with a 'wish'?

Why not? If you want to desire, if you want to feel the passion and the fire, dont be afraid, you will handle it! Be brave enough to live without fear.

If you don't like burning passion then ok, but if you like it but you are afraid to suffer.... come on you can do better than that, be brave and do what you really wanna do.

I just don't agree in not doing things we love because we are afraid to suffer... if that's the case then suffering will surely return until you don't fear it anymore...

It's not about being afraid of suffering. Why fear fear?

Do what you love, but don't attach yourself to the outcomes. Live in the moment, with no thought about the past or the future.

The moment? WWhat if you reject the present moment. What we need to do is find positive thinking in life events.

Once again, if hard times arrive challenge yourself, dont be a pussy, look at the mirror and say to yourself, i am a grown up, i can take it... Why the attachment to a painless life?

Originally posted by Manula
I truly admire those who take risks, who are not afraid to feel frustrated or disappointed.
These people are my heroes, they live it like they want it, even knowing they can suffer later.
They can endure hard times. No pain, no gain.
They can take it, so they live it all in, they know the risks, they know what can happen but they are willing to live it like it is.

I agree with this, actually. Taking risks and meeting challenges are some of the most joyful experiences one can have. But you need to create expectations in order to do it.

The world is full of pain and suffering, why would i escape, its part of the show.

So because the rest of the world is doing it, so should I? That is highly illogical.

You want light, then you must learn to handle the black.

Says who?

Originally posted by Manula

The moment? WWhat if you reject the present moment. What we need to do is find positive thinking in life events.

What do you mean, reject the present moment?
Positive thinking?? So now we're going to mask reality with our limited thoughts? Don't think positively, because you're missing the other half, negativity. You're only seeing one side of reality. Don't cloud your vision with constant thought and judgment, see the world as it is.

Once again, if hard times arrive challenge yourself, dont be a pussy, look at the mirror and say to yourself, i am a grown up, i can take it... Why the attachment to a painless life?

You're not understanding what I'm saying. If you don't have any expectations, 'hard times' cannot exist. You accept every situation with open arms, not judging it as 'good' or 'bad'. This is clear vision, seeing reality for what it truly is.

Originally posted by HarryTZ

Originally posted by Manula
I truly admire those who take risks, who are not afraid to feel frustrated or disappointed.
These people are my heroes, they live it like they want it, even knowing they can suffer later.
They can endure hard times. No pain, no gain.
They can take it, so they live it all in, they know the risks, they know what can happen but they are willing to live it like it is.

I agree with this, actually. Taking risks and meeting challenges are some of the most joyful experiences one can have. But you need to create expectations in order to do it.

The world is full of pain and suffering, why would i escape, its part of the show.

So because the rest of the world is doing it, so should I? That is highly illogical.

You want light, then you must learn to handle the black.

Says who?

How can you know what joy is if you haven't felt sad?
How can you know what love is if you haven't felt hate?
How can you know what self-esteem is if you haven't felt like the worst person in the world?

We live and learn in the dance of duality, that's how it is, its highly illogical to say otherwise,

Get used to it.

Can you be happy in a world where joy and sadness exist? Of course you can, but you have to accept this world first. as it is.

Then you will be happy, when you learn to love life with its black and white floor, like the masonic pavement.

Originally posted by HarryTZ

Originally posted by Manula

The moment? WWhat if you reject the present moment. What we need to do is find positive thinking in life events.

What do you mean, reject the present moment?
Positive thinking?? So now we're going to mask reality with our limited thoughts? Don't think positively, because you're missing the other half, negativity. You're only seeing one side of reality. Don't cloud your vision with constant thought and judgment, see the world as it is.

Once again, if hard times arrive challenge yourself, dont be a pussy, look at the mirror and say to yourself, i am a grown up, i can take it... Why the attachment to a painless life?

You're not understanding what I'm saying. If you don't have any expectations, 'hard times' cannot exist. You accept every situation with open arms, not judging it as 'good' or 'bad'. This is clear vision, seeing reality for what it truly is.

Its impossible not to judge....
If its not good or bad its on the 0, this is a judgement, its not good or bad, it makes you feel detached, insensible, Apathetic, unemotional, disinterested, indifferent, etc

Nice feelings uh, these neutral feelings

Originally posted by Manula
How can you know what joy is if you haven't felt sad?
How can you know what love is if you haven't felt hate?
How can you know what self-esteem is if you haven't felt like the worst person in the world?

We live and learn in the dance of duality, that's how it is, its highly illogical to say otherwise,

Get used to it.

Can you be happy in a world where joy and sadness exist? Of course you can, but you have to accept this world first. as it is.

Then you will be happy, when you learn to love life with its black and white floor, like the masonic pavement.

The first line and last line of this post are complete contradictions. By your admission, you only can be happy if you know suffering. It is not guaranteed. It is not permanent. It is fleeting. Thus, it is not true happiness.

Don't fool yourself into thinking Buddhists want to shut out the bad and only let in the good. That's not the case. We aspire for detachment from all things. To reference a previous post of yours, we do not want "light" nor do we want "dark."

Freedom from suffering is permanent, unending, peace and happiness. How can anything be better? Please answer this question, because I've asked you many times now and you continue to avoid it. To what end should one continue to suffer in order to "grow" or "become strong" or "become wise"? What is the purpose, if not to be free from suffering? What goal is there that is greater than this?