Why should Immoral people change?

reply to post by wildtimes

NDEs are FAR more evidence than dusty 'revelations',

NDEs are still just activity of a dying brain, similar images can be induced by hallucinogens.
If we want to be skeptic, we can be that about anything. If you want to believe NDEs you seek things to validate them, i'l seek to invalidate them.
You call revealations dusty yet would use more dusty hindu texts talking about reincarnation and put a premium on their dustiness to prove the possibility that they are right.

Are you consciously aware that you are at a risk of selective perception to defend your opinions and could be blind to anything against it.
I am aware of it, thats the reason i welcome my beliefs to be attacked although i expect it to be done politely rather than insultingly.

Originally posted by logical7
read the Qur'an and then Judge it.

Read it. Judged it as unworthy of another read.

why not another man after 600years to confirm and correct the previous scriptures?

A murdering thief isn't someone who is going to 'set the record straight'
And the record didn't need straightening out. The gospels got it correct the first time.

you only know about one prophet and think that only he is good enough to follow,

Jesus is GOD incarnate ... not a prophet.
And with God Incarnate to follow .. there is no need for a pseudo-prophet who made up
stories 600 years after Jesus walked the earth.

Originally posted by logical7
NDEs are still just activity of a dying brain, similar images can be induced by hallucinogens.

Not even close.

MANY Near Death Experiences involve people who die and who, while out of their bodies, travel and see and hear real things as they happen. The ''dead' are able to repeat conversations that other people had miles away from where their bodies lay. They were able to describe situations and happenings and conversations that they couldn't possibly have any knowledge of. Those things can not be induced by hallucinogens. They are actual happenings that are being viewed and reported after the person is revived.

I remember reading one Near Death Experience that a person had, who described floating out of his body and looking down upon it ... and seeing things that were sitting on top of filing cabinets that were around him from the view above. He was able to describe these items ... all of which could not be seen from the bed that he died in but that only could have been seen from someone above looking down upon the scene.

I understand why you reject Near Death Experiences. Many of them include meeting Jesus in all His glory, and none of them meet Muhammad ... although a few Near Death Experiencers who were dragged into hell have said they have seen Muhammad in hell. (which I don't doubt).

reply to post by FlyersFan

They are first hand accounts of the events in the life of Jesus.

No FF,
Bible Scholars disagree with what you keep repeating, i am sorry but with all respect FF, its not even know who wrote the Gospels. No original gospels were available and no two available copies are completely similar. You can ofcourse keep believing it as its a matter of faith.
Only you know how open mindedly you have examined your faith before believing it to be true.

I have repeated many times that its individual responsibility to show intellectual integrity as Qur'an teaches me and it makes complete sense to me.
At the end its each one for himself/herself and only answerable for one's own deeds, this is my belief but its also pure common sense.

On the topic, immoralities done by people who know its wrong are done because the either deny accountability or think they can escape detection and/or punishment(if its illegal too)

i understand your idea of relative morality but what i am saying that there must be an absolute morality because there is a God, i cannot claim that i know it but i can seek it by using the golden rule as wildtimes agreed previously in the thread.

Morality is nothing but a set behaviourial boundaries beyond which my actions will harm myself, others, society or environment/planet.
I am only advocating that nobody crosses these boundaries as then it cannot be justified as relative or toleratable when we see someone being harmed.

Originally posted by logical7
Bible Scholars disagree with what you keep repeating,

Not really. The accounts are by eyewitness' and those who studied under eyewitness. The gospel of Luke came a great deal from Mary, the mother of Jesus. She's the only one who could have known what was written down by Luke. It's all information from that general time period. NOT made up 600 + years later by someone who wasn't there. It's MUCH more likely that the gospels are accurate than the Qu'ran.

there must be an absolute morality because there is a God,.

And the Qu'ran doesn't state what 'absolute morality' is. It's just a mess.
and a lot of what comes from it is immoral .. imho

if YOU want to think it's your the moral compass ...that's on you.
But you can't expect people to adapt your version of morality.
Most of the planet sees the Qu'ran as worthless at best ... immoral at worst.

reply to post by logical7

NDEs are still just activity of a dying brain, similar images can be induced by hallucinogens.

That has been proven false.

If we want to be skeptic, we can be that about anything. If you want to believe NDEs you seek things to validate them, i'l seek to invalidate them.

Yes, we can, and SHOULD be skeptical. I have investigated both sides of the NDE debate, and the more substantial and still-coming-in studies indicate it is NOT just a "dying brain" phenomenon.
You go ahead and show me definitive proof that science and neurology have failed to uphold NDEs as legitimate. They happen under all sorts of different 'near deaths' - including deep coma, "brain death", severe stroke, and other circumstances.

You call revealations dusty yet would use more dusty hindu texts talking about reincarnation and put a premium on their dustiness to prove the possibility that they are right.

There are CURRENT REPORTS of remembered past lives ALL THE TIME. That is EVIDENCE.
There is NO EVIDENCE that the Qu'ran is 'the word of Gabriel revealed to Muhammed and written down generations after it had been transmitted 'by memory' only orally'. None.

Are you consciously aware that you are at a risk of selective perception to defend your opinions and could be blind to anything against it.

Of course I am. Don't insult my intelligence and ability to acquire knowledge with objectivity.

I am aware of it, thats the reason i welcome my beliefs to be attacked although i expect it to be done politely rather than insultingly.

Politely is better. Consistently is also better. You keep changing your 'position' though, as I've explained. That's why we keep going in circles. I've never said you were a poor student or a bad person or a liar. You have acknowledged that I am a good person, and that you are unaware of real 'Western thinking.' We established that at the outset of our dialogue.

How have I insulted you? If I have, I apologize. Showing faulty logic and circular argument is not "insulting" you.
Telling you that you can't know about parenting REALLY until you are a parent, or that you are too young to have traveled enough miles (physically OR in 'length of living') to know some things about the world that will come to you as you get older is not insulting you.

reply to post by FlyersFan

I understand why you reject Near Death Experiences. Many of them include meeting Jesus in all His glory

Others say they met 'Buddha' or whichever they consider the 'God figure' in their particular religion. Also, many atheists report NDEs and say they met with A Being of Light and Love with no clear 'identity. It doesn't have to be "Jesus".

reply to post by FlyersFan

I understand why you reject Near Death Experiences. Many of them include meeting Jesus in all His glory, and none of them meet Muhammad ... although a few Near Death Experiencers who were dragged into hell have said they have seen Muhammad in hell. (which I don't doubt).

i dont reject NDEs, they are too interesting but what do they prove? Death is not the end? Ya i know that.and your example of people seeing Muhammad pbuh in hell only prove that these vision are not free from observer's bias, you may see khomeni, bin laden in hell and i may see pope urban there!
Every1 will see Hitler in hell!

My point NDEs cannot be relied to be as absolute truths about everything the observer says. It can sure prove that the ability to "see" is not limited to the eyes, the same with ears.
That actually prove my point to Wildtimes that God is All seeing and All hearing which i guess you believe.

reply to post by FlyersFan

a lot of what comes from it is immoral .. imho

have you read this Ayah?
Surah 60
8. Allah does not forbid you from those
who do not fight you because of
religion and do not expel you from
your homes - from being righteous
toward them and acting justly toward
them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.

Is it moral and acceptable to you?
They don't put Ayahs like this on anti-islamic sites for obvious reasons.

reply to post by logical7

I dont reject NDEs, they are too interesting but what do they prove? Death is not the end?

Yes! That is what they prove! And yet, a few posts earlier you said

NDEs are still just activity of a dying brain, similar images can be induced by hallucinogens.

So.....
please.......
Which is it?
You've said that you 'don't reject NDEs' and that they are too interesting...........yet, you also said "NDEs are still just activities of the 'dying brain'."

Also, you've said that
you 'understand reincarnation but just don't believe it'

So, you DO or DO NOT reject:
NDEs?
plausible cases of reincarnation?
mystic/gnostic ability to manipulate physics (mind over matter)?

Again, my friend, logical7, (and I do think of you as a friend)......
Please think about those questions and then tell us.......WHICH IS IT? You DO? Or, you DO NOT?

Originally posted by logical7
your example of people seeing Muhammad pbuh in hell only prove that these vision are not free from observer's bias,

OR ... they prove that muhammad, who was a murdering liar and who started a false religion in order to gain power, and and who is responsible for all the mass murders of millions of people and the enslavement and mistreatment of millions of humans which have happened in the name of the Islam that he invented, really went to Hell. I would think that God would be pretty ticked off at someone who faked visions and messages from God ... and who caused all that death and destruction upon humanity.

reply to post by logical7

Dude .. you can cherry pick a verse or two and twist it to make the Qu'ran and islam look ducky.
But the fact is ... the Qu'ran and Islam are immoral to the vast majority of the planet.

Which once again goes back to the subject of this very long thread ....
People can't tell others to become 'moral' because their idea of 'moral' may not actually be moral.

reply to post by wildtimes


Very true. Encounters with Jesus or a loving being of light.
But no credible positive encounters with Muhammad.
Which doesn't surprise me at all.

reply to post by logical7

you say that because you are from Canada. If you were from ME and a jew you would be probably have the same arguement against Gospel.

What does being from Canada have to do with anything?

IF I was a hindu I wouldn't have the same beliefs... same thing as if I was a jew... but the reason im not either is because I don't need a label for my beliefs.

So... Tell me, IF the same lessons are in your book... Why do your women ware bed sheets to cover themselves... when Jesus said specifically "it doesn't matter what you ware"?

Why don't you eat certain meat, or drink alcohol when HE said theres no problem with either?

You should read because its highly unlikely that you were placed at a place where you got all the truth needed.
Qur'an encourages me to read Gospels and i do,

Clearly that isn't true... You just stated you have arguments against the gospels... Why would your book encourage people to read a book that they have issues with?

gospel discourages you from reading anything after it.

NO... Christianity encourages its members not to read anything but the bible...

The gospels say no such thing...

And if that is the case... Why would you read the gospels?

And by the way, I've read a lot of material from many different religions... You shouldn't assume...

A truth is not afraid.

It seems to me you are full of fear brother... Not I...

I haven't read your book because I don't see a point... and you haven't convinced me of any truth that lies within that book... Sure the bible creates some disturbing individuals and beliefs... and some of the sect of Christianity are right off the wall... but the fact remains... You'll never see a Christian blowing himself up or others...

Most Christians don't oppress women... and IF they do... it has to do with their upbringing... not their religion

Yes the bible produces some unappealing groups... but your book turns some people into lunatics!

What do you think will happen if you read Qur'an?

I would compare it with the gospels... and then reject it like I do the OT...

I garentee it...

reply to post by wildtimes

There are CURRENT REPORTS of remembered past lives ALL THE TIME. That is EVIDENCE. There is NO EVIDENCE that the Qu'ran is 'the word of Gabriel revealed to Muhammed and written down generations after it had been transmitted 'by memory' only orally'. None.

a remembered past life is an observation, to use it to prove reincarnation is one of the conclusions. Its not the only possibility. You believe in angels, there are other unseen forces whose lifespan is longer than humans and they can be bad and give dreams and information from their previous host.

The evidence for Qur'an can be found in studying biography of Muhammad pbuh and Qur'an itself. It cannot be written by a human and it challenges the reader to find errors in it.
A close associate of Geert Wilders, an islam hater became a muslim after studying Qur'an. Which he was doing to find faults in it.

reply to post by wildtimes

So, you DO or DO NOT reject: NDEs? plausible cases of reincarnation? mystic/gnostic ability to manipulate physics (mind over matter)?

i am open to NDEs but i cannot accept them as a proof of anything except a general idea that death is not the end and senses are not limited by sense organs.
NDEs suggest hell, so do you believe it?

I have alternative explanation in my belief for those cases.

Yes i believe in mind over matter, matter is really not so real however it requires a very high level of spirituality and detachment from the world to actually make it work. Its a catch 22, i can make a stone into a gem only when a gem has no more value for me than a stone!
In other words i'l get that ability when i become extremely selfless.

reply to post by logical7


A NDE that results in a negative experience (hellish) is perfectly aligned with the ideas of Karma as described in the Tibetan Book of the Dead.

You said not too long ago that you don't think people stay in "hell" forever. Christians teach that it is indeed "forever." Tibetan Buddhists teach that during the dying process, the soul encounters its own fears and feelings of guilt, based on how the soul lived this time around. The guru guides the soul (by reading the TBD aloud to the dying/newly dead) through the phases of the process. It's a journey like a life review, and ALL NDE experiencers say they had a 'life review'.

A person with much bad karma will encounter horrific entiities and visions, and the guru tells the soul, "they are not real, they are products of your own mind and conscience reflecting how you lived, so keep going." Eventually the soul comes upon more neutral or positive entities and experiences. The guru then guides the soul toward a "good rebirth" experience, and gives hopeful support that the soul will be born in good circumstances.

No, I don't believe in "hell", but I DO believe a hellish experience based on bad karma accumulated is quite feasible (as with people seeing "hell" instead of the loving, peace-filled visions that MOST people have.)

You are suggesting that cases of verified details being described in both NDEs and Reincarnation cases are either hallucinations or demon-implanted 'memories' that don't belong to the person who recalls a past life? What possible harm could be their intent? Just to make mischief and keep people confused and uncertain? If so, then maybe that's what we need to learn - that we can't be "CERTAIN" of anything while we are earth-bound, and that is MUCH that we don't know about. So we should stop presuming we can.

And what do you mean when you said "the Qu'ran cannot be written by men". Of course it can, and it was. A human being (and later, translators) wrote the book. There's nothing in it that is incomprehensible or earth-shattering.

I don't think it OR the Bible are "channeled" messages from the otherworld, but I suppose it's possible.

As for people doing immoral things that they know are wrong ONLY because they think they can deny it or avoid punishment -- that is how children think as they are growing up regarding 'discipline' they expect to encounter for their misbehavior.

Sociopaths - CHILDREN AND ADULTS - knowingly do wrong things AND DON'T CARE IF IT HURTS ANYONE ELSE. That's a big difference, and it shows lack of compassion and empathy and complete disregard for the Golden Rule....

and so we return to the beginning. The Golden Rule is all we need. Not a bunch of accompanying instruction books and regional how-to handouts that no one can prove to be authentic.

Are we done now? Good luck with educating the ignorant Muslims on how they are supposed to behave, you have a real 'job of work' on your hands. The entire world will thank you. Just as they would thank anyone who could successfully eradicate depraved cult-think among the extremists in EVERY religion.

If the job were mine, the first thing I'd suggest is chucking the Abrahamic holy books and starting over. The Tao, the I-Ching, the Tibetan BoD.....those would stay.
Along with the Golden Rule.
Then we would marry spirituality WITH science to realize we have learned only a fraction of what there is out there beyond our knowledge, and we have a long, long way to go.

Going backward or staying stuck in tradition that has been proven harmful has to stop, and NOW.

EDIT: Oh Wait! The Dalai Lama already has that job!! Never mind then, I'm not nearly as qualified. And Karen Armstrong is doing a kick-ass job from the Abrahamic end. They are two of the wisest people alive; and I'm glad they exist. I wish THEY were in charge of the world. It would look very, very different.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by logical7

 

Dude .. you can cherry pick a verse or two and twist it to make the Qu'ran and islam look ducky.
But the fact is ... the Qu'ran and Islam are immoral to the vast majority of the planet.

Which once again goes back to the subject of this very long thread ....
People can't tell others to become 'moral' because their idea of 'moral' may not actually be moral.

whenever you are shown something that challenges your deep rooted assumptions you just disregard it with a swap of a hand and some excuse or by just repeating your assumptions again, a nice way of self hypnosis. You are so certain about everything that i am amused and fascinated! Thats the reason i seek your replies, you make the thread interesting. You do have some valid points and nice opinions, i just wonder why are you so bitter against islam.

Qur'an is a Book that makes me think and investigate and only accept when it makes sense.
Cherry picking of Qur'anic verses is done by you and anti islamic sites that you refer.
So i'l ask you a question that Qur'an tells me to ask you,
Surah 5,
59. Say: "O people
of the Book!
Do ye
disapprove of
us for no
other reason than that we
believe in
Allah, and the
revelation that
hath come to
us and that which came
before (us),
and (perhaps)
that most of
you are
rebellious and disobedient?"

reply to post by logical7

i am open to NDEs but i cannot accept them as a proof of anything except a general idea that death is not the end and senses are not limited by sense organs.
NDEs suggest hell, so do you believe it?

I have alternative explanation in my belief for those cases.

Well, I'm all ears. Let's hear your alternative explanation AND your beliefs in those cases, please. As clearly as possible.

reply to post by wildtimes

You are suggesting that cases of verified details being described in both NDEs and Reincarnation cases are either hallucinations or demon- implanted 'memories' that don't belong to the person who recalls a past life? What possible harm could be their intent? Just to make mischief and keep people confused and uncertain?

yes and mislead people to think that they have many chances to live! If thats the case how do you feel about it? Will you allow yourself to be mislead? Because ultimately its completely your responsibility in the end.
People talk to mediums etc and get convinced that they are talking to their dead loved one when the medium reveals an information that only the dead person could have known.
In my belief i know that every human has a personal devil assigned called as kaarin and it knows a lot about me and it can reveal some information to the kaarin of a medium which she relays to me and i am SHOCKED! and all ready to be mislead or ripped off.

You are saying "what i don't know cannot hurt me" its the very opposite wildtimes.

The angels protect us from exactly these mischievious forces but the angels are pure beings and avoid any impurities etc. So they cannot as effectively protect a physically impure person or if the place is bad or dedicated to idols, images etc.
I am just saying to you the Islamic belief so you can be as skeptical as you want to be.

I am open to NDEs, angels, devils and mind over matter beacause i know the limitations of science. I would be a fool to base my world view on just science because it explains only a part and i want to understand more in this lifetime because as far i know and practically speaking this is my only chance.