Why should Immoral people change?

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

i am open to NDEs but i cannot accept them as a proof of anything except a general idea that death is not the end and senses are not limited by sense organs.
NDEs suggest hell, so do you believe it?

I have alternative explanation in my belief for those cases.

Well, I'm all ears. Let's hear your alternative explanation AND your beliefs in those cases, please. As clearly as possible.

let me simply use the experience and dream/memory of FF as example, she remembers an event during a WW.
the kaarin of that little girl during WW could be still alive when FF was a child and gave her dreams and a memory of that event and to explain this cases the simplest way is to assume that it was a "past" life event.
And the people in the cases you refer do reveal shocking details about their past life but fail to answer some basic questions which should have been known if more details are know and thats because they can only say what the kaarin/djinn had planted but no more.
Its however enough for people who are desperately seeking it to be true.

reply to post by logical7


Okay, I get what you are saying, I think.

You are saying "what i don't know cannot hurt me" its the very opposite wildtimes.

WHEN DID I SAY THAT?

I did not, and if you interpreted what I said to mean that, you have once again misunderstood me.

I don't think "reincarnation" is a happy thing. I used to, because I've loved being alive and hated to think it was only one go-round. But now, when I realize that it might be "random" and NOT based on "karmic debt", it terrifies me -
which is ONE of the reasons I want EVERYONE to be free, fed, safe, sheltered, and treated with kindness. I don't believe our species will be fully evolved until THAT is the case, and then no one needs worry about being born into horrific situations - because there wouldn't BE ANY. And THEN we can all advance to 'heaven on Earth' - or reunion with the Divine. As it is, we go one at a time, and that's what's taking FOREVER (from our perspective as human beings - because in the 100,000 years since we've been around we still haven't got it sorted yet!)

I don't worry that I have 'karmic debt' that would land me in a hostile next life, but if 'karmic debt' has nothing to do with it, then it's just LUCK where to to whom one is reborn. No thank you. I DO think that I've lived several lifetimes already; so, I believe reincarnation IS a real possibility, AND I don't want to come back to some starving African village or the child of a crack-head or any of the awful things that are possible.

I PREFER to think it's karma-based, and that we choose the life based on guidance we receive in the otherworld - because this is what I've always had a hunch about, and I have successfully pursued experts and renowned speakers and authors to back me up on that. What I've learned fits, and I haven't found anything to 'debunk' it yet.

reply to post by logical7

And the people in the cases you refer do reveal shocking details about their past life but fail to answer some basic questions which should have been known if more details are know and thats because they can only say what the kaarin/djinn had planted but no more.
Its however enough for people who are desperately seeking it to be true.

The actual explanation is that people aren't SUPPOSED to remember - that is the "veil" - the "unknowing" spell that comes with rebirth. If we remembered every detail of every lifetime we wouldn't be able to focus on the task at hand.
Common reincarnation theory is that we aren't supposed to remember - but some people return and DO remember, and you saying it's just wishful thinking is not valid, in my opinion and based on my understanding and studies of it.

However, I DO believe we reincarnate in soul groups - with the same 'others' in our 'cohort' - but in different relationships and even genders - once in a while we run into someone who seems impossibly familiar but is otherwise a stranger - and that is a very powerful feeling.

Anyway, you haven't effectively shot it down. Simply scoffing at it is not the same as disproving it.

I don't know for sure how it works, but this is what I have gathered from 25 years of studying it and listening to others who have the "sight" that most of us lack.

reply to post by wildtimes

If the job were mine, the first thing I'd suggest is chucking the Abrahamic holy books and starting over. The Tao, the I-Ching, the Tibetan BoD.....those would stay. Along with the Golden Rule.

how is it any different than a muslim group or a christian group advocating to implement only their own ideology and chucking out any others!
I'l rather suggest that let all information be available unbiasedly to everyone and let the best ideas win.
People are seeking alternative ideologies and deeper meaning to life and you agree that its a natural urge, so let them decide.
I am trying to do that by clearing misconceptions about my ideology and giving alternative explanations. If it appeals to anyone then they are free to investigate themselves or ask me.

reply to post by wildtimes

The actual explanation is that people aren't SUPPOSED to remember - that is the "veil" - the "unknowing" spell that comes with rebirth. If we remembered every detail of every lifetime we wouldn't be able to focus on the task at hand. Common reincarnation theory is that we aren't supposed to remember - but some people return and DO remember

so the theory is being tried to be proven by an error that shouldn't happen. The best approach then would be to ignore these errors completely and not use them as proofs. explain why the veil is perforated and then use it as proof.

My idea is still better, people have a belief and a mischievious force gives them some confirmation about it, reincarnation, mediums, visions and sounds confirming a belief in a saint, idol etc. It more general and explains many events

More on reincarnation theory:

Tibetan theory is that you get the life you "earned" with karma.

My theory is that you "choose" the life you need based on decisions made in conference with ethereal beings in the higher realm, and that those reasons are 'forgotten' (which is part of the soul contract). Most "memories" of past lives are forgotten by the time a child reaches the age of "reason" - but not always. Some memories don't emerge until later in life. In other words, the info "leaks through" in some cases - but in general, no it doesn't.
So that we can focus, and learn.

Your theory is that demons put memories into people to make them think they have more than one chance and 'trick' them into misbehaving or doing bad things - to get them in trouble. (Right?)

Sorry, but yours seems the LEAST likely to me. It seems to be counterproductive, and if the Divine wants everyone to 'succeed', it would be stupid to set up road-blocks like that - another act of tyranny. And a 'fail' of system-creating.

Again, you go with "coerced" morality, and I DON'T. You go with "coerced" immorality, and I DON'T.
I go with choices and consequences that follow a generally benevolent pathway. You can have your "coercion God."

I want nothing to do with "him" and his nasty psychotic techniques. And if that's what "he" is, I don't want to spend the afterlife in "his" presence. "He's" a despot - a tyrant - a bully - and a jerk. No, thanks. And I won't "worship him" either.

I'll stick to following my path.
Thanks, though, for your efforts to help me understand your thinking.

reply to post by logical7

so the theory is being tried to be proven by an error that shouldn't happen. The best approach then would be to ignore these errors completely and not use them as proofs. explain why the veil is perforated and then use it as proof.

If the veil cannot be "perforated" then any "revealed word" is IMPOSSIBLE. So, that shoots down your 'cannot be written by man' theory entirely.

The veil IS occasionally perforated - and some people DO see the other side and remember it. Because we are ALL in touch with the Divine. The more advanced a soul is, the more likely the veil will be 'perforated.'

Jesus was teaching that. Muhammed was teaching tyranny, and your idea does not appeal to me AT ALL.

There is a more recent "revealed word" called the Urantia Book - it's huge, it's free to read online, and it merges ALL of these theories into one. There is no "Urantia" religion, or church or leader. It just is there to read. It doesn't name an author, either - and no one claims to be a prophet who 'channeled' it, but it is 'said' to be from ethereal beings. Obviously someone wrote it down, but no one knows who, or why, except to teach.

It - and Baha'i - are the only 'Abrahamic-based' theories that I could accept. And since I don't affiliate with organized religion - the Urantia Book stands out for me as the only Abrahamic-based guidebook, alongside the other Eastern/Oriental concepts of the Tibetans and the I-Ching.

Since I don't really go with "revealed religion" - but I will listen to "seers" - I have no interest in Muhammed or his supposed words. The results he got were - and continue to be - horrid. I could just as easily say he was "implanted" with these thoughts by a demon masquerading as Gabriel and misleading him, and you couldn't prove that wasn't the case. Furthermore, based on your theory of "demon implanted thoughts" you have to suspect the Qur'an as possibly coming from the "demons" you think are messing with people.

I also have to suspect the Urantia Book - especially because of its anonymity....but the ideas in it resonate with mine in many ways.

reply to post by wildtimes

if the Divine wants everyone to 'succeed'

if the plan is for everyone to succeed then there is no free will. Then nothing matters, a killer and the killed will both get there and so they didn't really had a choice.

You want assumptions of your theory to be also fulfilled by my belief!
and you discard it when it doesn't? Those are your expectations/assumptions, i don't know why you developed them. I guess maybe because you are a good person and want a happy end for everyone.

If there is only one life then everyone will not succeed as you can easily understand. It will be their own intentions and deeds that will decide it.

Tell me why do you think that someone who did something that deserves a punishment should not get it?
If my belief is true all will get their karma and then be punishment free except the ones who did the unforgiveable sins.

reply to post by logical7

Tell me why do you think that someone who did something that deserves a punishment should not get it?

I don't think that! GHA! WHAT are you talking about? People who kill people in this life DO get punished...by the justice system. People who harm others live out the consequences of that harm by social rejection and vilification.

If my belief is true all will get their karma and then be punishment free except the ones who did the unforgiveable sins.

In my belief they will have to return again and again before being "acceptable" on the otherside. Between lifetimes, they are forced to review their actions, are shown what they did wrong, and then come to a 'meeting' to decide, with the guidance of the higher realm, what their punishment ought to be (which is being in the victim's place next time around).
We talked about "karma".
In reincarnation, a killer will have to come back, as agreed in a 'soul contract', and be on the other side of the crime - that is their 'punishment' - having to stand in the shoes of a victim.....you make it so complicated and impossible to fathom. Who EVER said that the harmful will get away scot free?

I think of life and reincarnation as "soul school".

You think of it as a one-time shot, based on fear of "punishment". Again, it goes back to parenting.


What do you not get about that?
My theory is that we get more chances - yours is that we get only one chance, and demons are trying to make us fail.

Which is a more optimist theory? Which would have lasting consequences?

Just screw up big enough, and you're doomed forever. Outcast, shunned, sent to hell......
what does that 'teach' anyone, really??! Nothing. Only how to outcast, shun, and damn other people.

A merciful God would give beings as long as it takes to figure things out -
not toss them aside as lost causes after one go-round in this difficult world. Therefore, reincarnation makes sense - real experience over the course of MANY lifetimes in a variety of circumstances. EXPERIENCE is the best teacher.
Not some book.

We don't all get there UNTIL THE LESSONS ARE LEARNED - and it can take thousands of lifetimes to get all the lessons learned.
That is what physical lifetimes by "learner souls":is about.
But, whatever. I really think we don't have much more to cover, we just keep going round and round.
You have not convinced me that you have sound understanding of morals, nor have you convinced me to read the Qu'ran. I wish you all the best, and I'm here if you have questions.
But I believe I understand you, and I think you are mistaken. It's just my opinion, based on your communication on this forum. I don't know how you live, where you live, what you do when you're not on here, how you treat people, or what your ambitions are. I just know that I don't agree with your thinking, or your defense of Islam - since you have never acknowledged which "form" of Islam you adhere to.

I very much agree with you that it is wisest to check out ALL ideas and make an informed 'decision' - and I hope that as time goes by you will find yourself examining your own beliefs with an objective point of view. You still have time, in this lifetime, to do so.

reply to post by logical7

if the plan is for everyone to succeed then there is no free will.

What?!! Preposterous! We have free will so we can LEARN BY EXPERIENCE what happens when we behave immorally, and progress through various lifetimes figuring that out! If it takes one soul 4,205 times, then that's how long it takes. If it takes another soul fewer times, because they "get it" sooner, then it doesn't take as long.

Then nothing matters, a killer and the killed will both get there and so they didn't really had a choice.

That doesn't make sense.

Anyway, karma is DIRECTLY linked to reincarnation - and I don't see how you can embrace "karma" and "hell" and deny reincarnation as an "alternative" to 'hell'. Maybe that's why this world continues to be so screwed up - because there are souls that need to be treated badly in order to get it...
And souls who need to treat others badly to get it....by then being a victim.

I didn't invent the system, dude. I'm a problem-solver, not a tyrant. I would give my children infinite chances and love them no matter what. I guess you wouldn't. So, my idea of "God" is the loving, merciful, forgiving and patient one who knows what lessons are important, and has set up a system with opportunities to do so.

Your idea of God is a bully and very mean and ugly. Devoid of compassion or patience. Punitive and destructive.
You can keep him. I'm not interested.

I would like to make a suggestion to you of watching a movie -
an American movie that is very much on topic....

Defending Your Life
You are hooked into the internet, I'm sure you can find it to watch, and I highly recommend that you do so in order to better understand my thinking.

Another one is City of Angels

Those two movies will give you some insight into my beliefs.

Take care, logical7. And don't forget to look up the Urantia Book
and Doctor Fida Hassnain

I don't know if you have yet read Karen Armstrong's A History of God yet, either.

Until you do, you won't understand me really.
Beyond that, I can't help you. I'd like to, but I can't.

Originally posted by logical7
The evidence for Qur'an can be found in studying biography of Muhammad pbuh and Qur'an itself. It cannot be written by a human and it challenges the reader to find errors in it.

wait a sec .. back that horse up ..
Are you saying that there are no errors in the Qu'ran?
There are THOUSANDS of errors. Scientific. Historical.
And, considering the grammatical and syntax errors, it was obviously written by humans.
More than one ... and they were pretty darn confused about time frames when they wrote it.

Originally posted by logical7
i just wonder why are you so bitter against islam.

- The 'holy book' is a proven lie. From one end to the other.
- The supposed 'prophet' was a thief and a murderer.
- The religion is bad for women.
- It drags humans back a thousand years and holds them down.
- The muslim notion of an afterlife filled with an orgy of the senses ... downright silly.

Hey .. don't shoot the messenger. YOU ASKED.

Originally posted by logical7
I'l rather suggest that let all information be available unbiasedly to everyone and let the best ideas win.

Tell that to the 'muslim countries' like Saudi Arabia that won't even let people bring in a bible or their rosary beads.

Religions don't like people to open their eyes or to read historical/factual information. Because then the people will see how ignorant the religion really is and that religion will loose followers (and power and money).

Islam is easily debunked. So is a lot of Christianity. So is a lot of the Jewish faith.

And that takes us back to the topic of the thread .... wanting 'immoral' people to change.
It's impossible to define 'moral'.
Therefore, humans need to accept secular laws that hold civilization intact.
Do not murder. Do not steal. Etc.
Anything over and above that .... like forcing women to cover their heads because
some silly man thinks it's 'moral' .... those laws would be IMMORAL.

reply to post by wildtimes

I PREFER to think it's karma-based, and that we choose the life based on guidance we receive in the otherworld - because this is what I've always had a hunch about, and I have successfully pursued experts and renowned speakers and authors to back me up on that. What I've learned fits, and I haven't found anything to 'debunk' it yet.

you prefering it to be some way does not make it true! You admit it and yet i feel that the realization does not hit you as it should.

Expert in what? And renowned does not necessarily mean that they know reality of afterlife.
You are still following humans and yet you refuse/reject human prophets.
Are you saying that anything that resonates with your hunches is more likely to be true? When your own hunches are a product of your environment. You even have some christian philosophy in you, the idea of LOVE being a force.
I am just asking you questions and i am glad that you want to avoid circular arguements and proofs.

The bottom line is we don't know whats after death and there are a lot of possible answers and ideas out there but only one can be true.

I am interested in knowing why people choose a certain idea and till now what Qur'an says about it has been proven to be true, i am just a curious student of Qur'an and i keep finding more meaning in its verses.

reply to post by wildtimes

Since I don't really go with "revealed religion" - but I will listen to "seers"

seers were famous among pre-islamic pagan arabia, a time called as age of ignorance.
Good luck to get knowledge from them

reply to post by wildtimes

I have no interest in Muhammed or his supposed words. The results he got were - and continue to be - horrid.

you admire Karen Armstrong right? Lets hear what she has to say about Qur'an and Muhammad pbuh.

reply to post by wildtimes

What?!! Preposterous! We have free will

yes we have free will but if everyone is supposed to join the source ultimately then its a collapse of free will even if you say that its through learning.
I am saying that people have a free will to choose not to join the source and thats simply what Hell is.
A limited time in Hell as punishment for ones who believed in God but did crimes etc.
Eternity in Hell for ones who don't want to be with God.
Its a completely informed choice, your refusal to accept it is refusal of free will.
Its the same as a man putting a loaded gun to his temple and pulling the trigger, when the consequence is know, then its the complete responsibility of the one making the choice.
Revealations and prophets are sent to inform and complete the responsibility from God's side. Then its pure free will of individual that will decide where they end up.

You desire a system with free will but it should be set up in a way that nobody should suffer eternally but you fail to see that even in your system a soul who refuses to meet the source will continue suffering in rebirths as it will deliberately do bad karma to not become eligible to join and pay for it in next birth yet not learn and repeat.

My belief is more simplified and has a more merciful God that respects free will and in His Mercy has informed people about the horrors of hell so that they don't want to end up there even if it is out of fear of hell.

23:104, The Fire will burn their faces, and they will therein grin, with their lips displaced.

a good parent informs about the horrible consequences of some actions so that the children don't do it. Its no way tyrannical as you want to show it. A tyrant by definition gains something by his tyranny. Allah is free of any need and it includes worship. Allah advises to worship because its our need to be spiritual and its the truth. If God is my creator its common sense that i thank Him rather than a stone idol or mother earth etc.

[Nisa 4:147] And what will Allah gain by punishing you, if you acknowledge the truth and accept faith? And Allah is Most Appreciative, All Knowing.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
The evidence for Qur'an can be found in studying biography of Muhammad pbuh and Qur'an itself. It cannot be written by a human and it challenges the reader to find errors in it.

wait a sec .. back that horse up ..
Are you saying that there are no errors in the Qu'ran?
There are THOUSANDS of errors. Scientific. Historical.
And, considering the grammatical and syntax errors, it was obviously written by humans.
More than one ... and they were pretty darn confused about time frames when they wrote it.

grammatical errors? I didnt knew you are a classical arabic expert, or do you have a research by one as your source? I'l like you to present it here.
The errors that you read about on your favourite websites are made up because of studying the text with an agenda and a strong bias against it.
Bring them here and i'l show you how they disappear with a little application of knowledge.

You don't want to do it because vilifying Islam is an indirect authentication/validation of your faith and discovering the opposite is a blow to your strongly held faith and a weak faith needs to be defended by attacking other competitive faith with baseless claims and false propoganda. Thats the agenda of the sites you visit. I hope you are better.
An example that i can give was an idiot guy who lied to people that he was an ex muslim who came to USA to convert people but became christian, turns out he was always a christian and after his stunt being discovered is now a principal of a seminary college!!
If islam is not that great whats the need to lie to gullible ignorant Americans and make them hate Islam and Muslims?
Here's the guy with his pathetic attempt to convince people that he is REALLY an ex muslim

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Since I don't really go with "revealed religion" - but I will listen to "seers"

seers were famous among pre-islamic pagan arabia, a time called as age of ignorance.
Good luck to get knowledge from them

You call it a time of ignorance .... that's funny considering that a lot of what Muhammad and the Qu'ran and Islam tries to sell is ignorance. The devil lives in a mans nose? Really? Comeon Logical .. be logical ... even you must see the silly parts that are in Islam and that are supposedly wisdom from On High.