Protestant disinfo debunked-Catholics are also Christians

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

Do I need to point to the plethora of people who are redeemed and now in heaven from the Bible who were never water baptized?

Again, only those who were alive from the first day of Pentecost after the crucifixion until the post-trib rapture can obey faith baptism in Jesus name. Those who lived before... their faith was seen through their attempts to live by God's commandments while awaiting the future coming Messieh and His plan of salvation.

edit on 1-6-2013 by truejew because: (no reason given)

Again, not true. Christ sent His followers out two by two to make converts before the cross and before Pentecost. Pentecost is just the birth of the ekklesia. God isn't a respecter of persons, the scripture is clear in that regard. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. Paul makes the same argument comparing Abraham and David.

You are forgetting by grace through faith AND works. Martin Luther came up with faith alone, all from His
mind not God. Go Read James 2:24. Luther tried to have the book of James thrown out with the other
7 he tossed.

It is so easy to understand, you must be a doer (works) of righteousness.

reply to post by colbe


Don't throw James at someone if you don't understand the concept of the book or the context. James isn't telling people how to be saved, James is writing about what a saved person looks like. We aren't saved by works, we're saved to do good works. Romans describes how a person is saved, James talks about how to distinguish the saved from the unsaved.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by colbe

 

Don't throw James at someone if you don't understand the concept of the book or the context. James isn't telling people how to be saved, James is writing about what a saved person looks like. We aren't saved by works, we're saved to do good works. Romans describes how a person is saved, James talks about how to distinguish the saved from the unsaved.

edit on 2-6-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

You do not say a word about where "faith alone" originated? No Apostle or Christian after the Apostles taught "faith alone" until October 31, 1517. Sola Fide is Martin Luther's gem. So, only if you are "saved" do you do goodwork? Why bother if you profess "faith alone?"

And very important, Protestants have this mixed up belief, to back up the heresy of Sola Fide. They actually think " Faith" makes you do a work. Makes no sense, God would never desire to make us robots. With the
help of God's grace we choose to act, to do a work. It is called free will. The "faith alone" heresy is so stuck
in Protestant belief, that other heresies come from it.

Some Protestants insist that it is the faith that does the work in us not we ourselves. Faith (God's gift to man through His Word / Eph 2:8; Rom 10: 17) is a necessary motivation for us to obey but it DOES NOT make us obey. Man has a choice to resist or yield, therefore the obedience is our responsibility. It is our obedience in response to faith that brings justification (and Eternal Life). Justification then brings "perfect" or "complete" faith, the proof we have that Eternal Life (See John 3:36!). Further, Eternal Life is something we possess in degrees and that corresponds to how close we have grown to Christ. It is Eternal Life we are given not a promise of the eternal possession of that life. That Life, however, is so powerful that nothing in all the universe, but one's own self will and sin, can remove us from Christ's hand (Romans 8:35-39).

Only place in Scripture where you find the two words together ~ "faith alone." James 2:24:

Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

reply to post by colbe

You do not say a word about where "faith alone" originated? No Apostle or Christian after the Apostles taught "faith alone" until October 31, 1517.

Don't even try to lecture me Colbe, read Ephesians 2:8-9.

Works follow faith.

And very important, Protestants have this mixed up belief, to back up the heresy of Sola Fide. They actually think " Faith" makes you do a work. Makes no sense, God would never desire to make us robots.

Maybe next you should read Philippians 2:13?

It says God changes our will to align with His will to want to do and to do of His good pleasure.

Originally posted by colbe

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by colbe

 

Don't throw James at someone if you don't understand the concept of the book or the context. James isn't telling people how to be saved, James is writing about what a saved person looks like. We aren't saved by works, we're saved to do good works. Romans describes how a person is saved, James talks about how to distinguish the saved from the unsaved.

edit on 2-6-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

You do not say a word about where "faith alone" originated? No Apostle or Christian after the Apostles taught "faith alone" until October 31, 1517. Sola Fide is Martin Luther's gem. So, only if you are "saved" do you do goodwork? Why bother if you profess "faith alone?"

And very important, Protestants have this mixed up belief, to back up the heresy of Sola Fide. They actually think " Faith" makes you do a work. Makes no sense, God would never desire to make us robots. With the
help of God's grace we choose to act, to do a work. It is called free will. The "faith alone" heresy is so stuck
in Protestant belief, that other heresies come from it.

Some Protestants insist that it is the faith that does the work in us not we ourselves. Faith (God's gift to man through His Word / Eph 2:8; Rom 10: 17) is a necessary motivation for us to obey but it DOES NOT make us obey. Man has a choice to resist or yield, therefore the obedience is our responsibility. It is our obedience in response to faith that brings justification (and Eternal Life). Justification then brings "perfect" or "complete" faith, the proof we have that Eternal Life (See John 3:36!). Further, Eternal Life is something we possess in degrees and that corresponds to how close we have grown to Christ. It is Eternal Life we are given not a promise of the eternal possession of that life. That Life, however, is so powerful that nothing in all the universe, but one's own self will and sin, can remove us from Christ's hand (Romans 8:35-39).

Only place in Scripture where you find the two words together ~ "faith alone." James 2:24:

Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Martin Luther did not teach the same "faith alone" doctrine that NOTurTypical teaches. He taught the necessity of water baptism.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by colbe

 

Don't even try to lecture me Colbe, read Ephesians 2:8-9.

Works follow faith.

Incorrect. Faith does not follow works, neither do works follow faith. They occur at the same time.

Faith is a way of life, it's not a one time event.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

Do I need to point to the plethora of people who are redeemed and now in heaven from the Bible who were never water baptized?

Again, only those who were alive from the first day of Pentecost after the crucifixion until the post-trib rapture can obey faith baptism in Jesus name. Those who lived before... their faith was seen through their attempts to live by God's commandments while awaiting the future coming Messieh and His plan of salvation.

edit on 1-6-2013 by truejew because: (no reason given)

Again, not true. Christ sent His followers out two by two to make converts before the cross and before Pentecost. Pentecost is just the birth of the ekklesia. God isn't a respecter of persons, the scripture is clear in that regard. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. Paul makes the same argument comparing Abraham and David.

Salvation by grace through faith has never been without works.

Noah found grace with God. Through faith Noah built and entered the ark. Your view of workless faith (dead faith) would mean that Noah would have still been saved if he ignored God and did not build and enter the ark. What faith would Noah have had in God if Noah ignored God. Again, faith cannot be real faith without works.

reply to post by truejew


You appear to have missed this inquiry of mine on the previous page:

By the way, can a person who wasn't baptized "in the name of Jesus" baptize someone "in the name of Jesus"? Let's say I fell on my head and when I came to, I suddenly believed, wholeheartedly, what you claim -- could I go around baptizing people "in the name of Jesus", because I use the right words and I have faith? Or would they be invalid baptisms because I was baptized "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit"?

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by truejew

 

You appear to have missed this inquiry of mine on the previous page:

By the way, can a person who wasn't baptized "in the name of Jesus" baptize someone "in the name of Jesus"? Let's say I fell on my head and when I came to, I suddenly believed, wholeheartedly, what you claim -- could I go around baptizing people "in the name of Jesus", because I use the right words and I have faith? Or would they be invalid baptisms because I was baptized "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit"?

I would not feel comfortable with accepting a baptism done by a non-Apostolic minister. I would rebaptize them. The reason would be that an Apostolic minister would be a reliable person in knowing whether the person was being baptized due to faith or not.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by colbe

 

Don't even try to lecture me Colbe, read Ephesians 2:8-9.

Works follow faith.

Incorrect. Faith does not follow works, neither do works follow faith. They occur at the same time.

Faith is a way of life, it's not a one time event.

edit on 3-6-2013 by truejew because: (no reason given)

James argues that a faith that doesn't produce works is a dead faith. So the logical conclusion is a healthy or legitimate faith will produce works.

reply to post by truejew

Salvation by grace through faith has never been without works.

I think genuine faith produces works. Phillipians 2:13 says God changes our will to both will and to do of his good pleasure. God saves us to do good works for Him.

And in your Noah example, his faith produced the works.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by truejew

 

You appear to have missed this inquiry of mine on the previous page:

By the way, can a person who wasn't baptized "in the name of Jesus" baptize someone "in the name of Jesus"? Let's say I fell on my head and when I came to, I suddenly believed, wholeheartedly, what you claim -- could I go around baptizing people "in the name of Jesus", because I use the right words and I have faith? Or would they be invalid baptisms because I was baptized "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit"?

I would not feel comfortable with accepting a baptism done by a non-Apostolic minister. I would rebaptize them. The reason would be that an Apostolic minister would be a reliable person in knowing whether the person was being baptized due to faith or not.

Well, you're in conflict with Reckart on that, he doesn't seem to think that a Trinitarian can baptize anyone. It's not a matter of "being comfortable" with anything -- he flat out rejects it.

Can a trinitarian who was never baptized in the name of Jesus Christ baptize a person in the name of Jesus Christ? Some claim it is not the spiritual condition of the baptizer, it is the faith of the baptismal candidate here. One idiot had the audacity to say that even a drunk could baptise in Jesus Christ name and the person's baptism would be valid. The same idiot said the baptism of a homosexual pastor was valid if he did it in the name of Jesus Christ. All of this nonsense is based upon the man made theory that "one baptism" means baptized only one time. I do not know of a single Pastor anywhere in the Oneness ranks who believes the baptisms by a homosexual is valid. And I do not know of a single Pastor in the Oneness ranks who believes a trinitarian who has not been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ has any scriptural authority to baptized a person in the name of Jesus Christ. (Source)

Do you reject his teaching there? If you do, you'd better let him know so that he can remove the "I do not know of a single Pastor in the Oneness ranks" bit (though he might boot you out of the "Oneness ranks" in order to keep his point.)

reply to post by adjensen


Think of all those poor soldiers who accepted Christ under George Washington's leadership and ministry during the winter at Valley Forge. So sad that a majority of them died that winter without a chance to be baptized.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by adjensen

 

Think of all those poor soldiers who accepted Christ under George Washington's leadership and ministry during the winter at Valley Forge. So sad that a majority of them died that winter without a chance to be baptized.

NTT,

George Washington converted to the faith at the end of his life. The vision he had at Valley Forge may was astounding, we sure are seeing the prophetic of the vision today.

On those soldiers dying without baptism, they received the baptism of desire.

I wish and pray you become Catholic and not just because the Remnant is Roman Catholic.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

Salvation by grace through faith has never been without works.

I think genuine faith produces works. Phillipians 2:13 says God changes our will to both will and to do of his good pleasure. God saves us to do good works for Him.

And in your Noah example, his faith produced the works.

edit on 3-6-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Without the works, Noah had no faith. Just like without baptism, a person has no faith.

reply to post by truejew

Dear truejew,

It may be hard to believe, heck, it's even hard for me to believe, but I check in from time to time. Usually when I'm confused, as I am this time.

Just like without baptism, a person has no faith.

Doesn't that mean that a lot of Gospel characters, who Jesus praised for their faith, didn't actually have faith?

I'm thinking of the friends who lowered a paralytic through the roof, the bleeding woman who touched His robe, the woman who said that even the dogs got to eat the scraps which fell from the table. "Such faith I have not seen in all of Israel," was His reply to one of them.

They weren't baptized, but seemed to have tons of faith. See why I'm confused?

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by truejew

 

You appear to have missed this inquiry of mine on the previous page:

By the way, can a person who wasn't baptized "in the name of Jesus" baptize someone "in the name of Jesus"? Let's say I fell on my head and when I came to, I suddenly believed, wholeheartedly, what you claim -- could I go around baptizing people "in the name of Jesus", because I use the right words and I have faith? Or would they be invalid baptisms because I was baptized "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit"?

I would not feel comfortable with accepting a baptism done by a non-Apostolic minister. I would rebaptize them. The reason would be that an Apostolic minister would be a reliable person in knowing whether the person was being baptized due to faith or not.

Well, you're in conflict with Reckart on that, he doesn't seem to think that a Trinitarian can baptize anyone. It's not a matter of "being comfortable" with anything -- he flat out rejects it.

Can a trinitarian who was never baptized in the name of Jesus Christ baptize a person in the name of Jesus Christ? Some claim it is not the spiritual condition of the baptizer, it is the faith of the baptismal candidate here. One idiot had the audacity to say that even a drunk could baptise in Jesus Christ name and the person's baptism would be valid. The same idiot said the baptism of a homosexual pastor was valid if he did it in the name of Jesus Christ. All of this nonsense is based upon the man made theory that "one baptism" means baptized only one time. I do not know of a single Pastor anywhere in the Oneness ranks who believes the baptisms by a homosexual is valid. And I do not know of a single Pastor in the Oneness ranks who believes a trinitarian who has not been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ has any scriptural authority to baptized a person in the name of Jesus Christ. (Source)

Do you reject his teaching there? If you do, you'd better let him know so that he can remove the "I do not know of a single Pastor in the Oneness ranks" bit (though he might boot you out of the "Oneness ranks" in order to keep his point.)

As I said, I would not feel comfortable with that type of baptism and would reject it. If the person wants to be under my ministry, they would be rebaptized. If they refuse, there are other churches they can attend.

reply to post by charles1952


As I said before, those where before baptism for the remission of sins. Their faith was seen in other actions.

reply to post by truejew

Sorry, You're right. I forgot you had mentioned that.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by colbe

 

Don't even try to lecture me Colbe, read Ephesians 2:8-9.

Works follow faith.

Incorrect. Faith does not follow works, neither do works follow faith. They occur at the same time.

Faith is a way of life, it's not a one time event.

edit on 3-6-2013 by truejew because: (no reason given)

Hi NTT and truejew,

Sometimes I read the latest post and miss earlier posts.

Salvation comes by our cooperation with God's grace, to have faith AND to do a good work. Faith alone isn't enough and Faith doesn't make you do a work. Faith, a free gift from God is a necessary motivation but it doesn't make you obey. See... our decision to be obedient, our free will is involved.

We would all agree Peter had faith but at one point, he chose to ignore what he believed, to be obedient and instead He decided to deny Our Lord.