Protestant disinfo debunked-Catholics are also Christians

reply to post by adjensen


Ignatius was oneness. He believed that the Father suffered on the cross, which is not compatible with trinitarianism.

Update on the quotes from the previous pope and Catholic encyclopedia:

I do see that the quote of the previous pope is not correct. Whether it is misquoted by accident or on purpose, I do not know, but it is still wrong.

I read around 3/4 of the Catholic Encyclopedia page and scanned through the other 1/4 and did not see the quote. I do not know if that page is from the same edition. However, unless someone can provide the evidence that the quote exists in another edition, I am calling the quote false.

I do notice that Pastor Reckart does not use these two quotes on his page.

reply to post by truejew


No it didn't. Christ instructed His followers to go out in twos to make converts and to baptize them before He even went to Jerusalem. So His command to baptize converts came long before Pentecost. Pentecost was merely the birth of the ekklesia, and when the Holy Spirit came to indwell man.

The disciples were "saved" before Pentecost.

Originally posted by truejew
reply to post by adjensen

 

Ignatius was oneness.

Incorrect.

Here's an easy test for you -- if someone is a Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, they are orthodox Christians with orthodox teaching. Origen? Not a saint. Tertullian? Not a saint. Eusebius? Not a saint. They all did things, said things or taught things that were sufficiently counter to the theology of the Catholic Church to prevent consideration of sainthood.

Ignatius of Antioch? He is Saint Ignatius, feast celebrated on the first day of February. If he taught "Oneness", he would not be a saint, simple as that.

reply to post by adjensen


Can Origen even be considered "Christian"?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

No it didn't. Christ instructed His followers to go out in twos to make converts and to baptize them before He even went to Jerusalem. So His command to baptize converts came long before Pentecost. Pentecost was merely the birth of the ekklesia, and when the Holy Spirit came to indwell man.

The disciples were "saved" before Pentecost.

edit on 31-5-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Baptism unto repentance was, however, baptism for the remission of sins in the name of Christ was not.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by truejew
reply to post by adjensen

 

Ignatius was oneness.

Incorrect.

Here's an easy test for you -- if someone is a Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, they are orthodox Christians with orthodox teaching. Origen? Not a saint. Tertullian? Not a saint. Eusebius? Not a saint. They all did things, said things or taught things that were sufficiently counter to the theology of the Catholic Church to prevent consideration of sainthood.

Ignatius of Antioch? He is Saint Ignatius, feast celebrated on the first day of February. If he taught "Oneness", he would not be a saint, simple as that.

Ignatius taught Patripassianism which is a part of oneness theology and against trinitarian teaching. The Catholic Church condemns Patripassianism.

Originally posted by truejew
I read around 3/4 of the Catholic Encyclopedia page and scanned through the other 1/4 and did not see the quote. I do not know if that page is from the same edition.

As you can see from the book's cover page, the book is the Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume II, and the page in question is 263, all three of which are the same as your citation.

The ridiculousness of the quote should be evidence in itself that you will not find it in any other edition of the book, but that's not necessary, because there was only one edition -- an update in the 1960s was published as The New Catholic Encyclopedia.

I do notice that Pastor Reckart does not use these two quotes on his page.

I noticed that as well, which leads me to the conclusion that this is a recent fraud, since he wrote his "Matthew 28:19" page (in the 90s, as I recall.) He doesn't ever seem to update things, which explains its absence.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

No it didn't. Christ instructed His followers to go out in twos to make converts and to baptize them before He even went to Jerusalem. So His command to baptize converts came long before Pentecost. Pentecost was merely the birth of the ekklesia, and when the Holy Spirit came to indwell man.

The disciples were "saved" before Pentecost.

edit on 31-5-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Baptism unto repentance was, however, baptism for the remission of sins in the name of Christ was not.

Then please explain how the thief entered paradise without remission of his sins.

So what was Jesus telling His followers to convert people TO?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

No it didn't. Christ instructed His followers to go out in twos to make converts and to baptize them before He even went to Jerusalem. So His command to baptize converts came long before Pentecost. Pentecost was merely the birth of the ekklesia, and when the Holy Spirit came to indwell man.

The disciples were "saved" before Pentecost.

edit on 31-5-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Baptism unto repentance was, however, baptism for the remission of sins in the name of Christ was not.

Then please explain how the thief entered paradise without remission of his sins.

So what was Jesus telling His followers to convert people TO?

The same way everyone does, through faith

reply to post by adjensen


I sent an email to the author of the study that I found the quotes on. Asking for info on the Catholic Encyclopedia quote and to see if his use of it was in ignorance. The email address is no longer in use. So that is a dead end.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

No it didn't. Christ instructed His followers to go out in twos to make converts and to baptize them before He even went to Jerusalem. So His command to baptize converts came long before Pentecost. Pentecost was merely the birth of the ekklesia, and when the Holy Spirit came to indwell man.

The disciples were "saved" before Pentecost.

edit on 31-5-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Baptism unto repentance was, however, baptism for the remission of sins in the name of Christ was not.

Then please explain how the thief entered paradise without remission of his sins.

So what was Jesus telling His followers to convert people TO?

The same way everyone does, through faith

That's the Protestant position, that we are saved by grace, through faith. Baptism doesn't save a person, baptism is what people who are saved do.

Originally posted by truejew
reply to post by adjensen

 

I sent an email to the author of the study that I found the quotes on. Asking for info on the Catholic Encyclopedia quote and to see if his use of it was in ignorance. The email address is no longer in use. So that is a dead end.

What is the link to where you copy/pasted those from?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

No it didn't. Christ instructed His followers to go out in twos to make converts and to baptize them before He even went to Jerusalem. So His command to baptize converts came long before Pentecost. Pentecost was merely the birth of the ekklesia, and when the Holy Spirit came to indwell man.

The disciples were "saved" before Pentecost.

edit on 31-5-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Baptism unto repentance was, however, baptism for the remission of sins in the name of Christ was not.

Then please explain how the thief entered paradise without remission of his sins.

So what was Jesus telling His followers to convert people TO?

The same way everyone does, through faith

That's the Protestant position, that we are saved by grace, through faith. Baptism doesn't save a person, baptism is what people who are saved do.

Although baptism done in faith does save.

reply to post by truejew


No it doesn't.

Again, baptism is what people do who already believe. (Unless it's an infant of course, but I'm not arguing for that doctrine). Faith is what saves, for we are saved by grace through our faith. I can't fathom a scenario where a person would agree to baptism who did not believe, nor do I think a person receives faith the second they emerge from water. It's there already present faith that drives their desire to be baptized. I'll say it again, baptism doesn't save a person, baptism is what saved people do. The first cause, and the gift of grace is already possessed at the point a person believes. In fact, that person immediately possesses eternal life when they believe.

And what is the link to where you copy/pasted the quotes from?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew
reply to post by adjensen

 

I sent an email to the author of the study that I found the quotes on. Asking for info on the Catholic Encyclopedia quote and to see if his use of it was in ignorance. The email address is no longer in use. So that is a dead end.

What is the link to where you copy/pasted those from?

A Collection of Evidence Against the Traditional Wording of Matthew 28:19

The web site it was submitted to says the author is the president of Biblical Apostolic Organization. The web site for that is down as well.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

No it doesn't.

Again, baptism is what people do who already believe. (Unless it's an infant of course, but I'm not arguing for that doctrine). Faith is what saves, for we are saved by grace through our faith. I can't fathom a scenario where a person would agree to baptism who did not believe, nor do I think a person receives faith the second they emerge from water. It's there already present faith that drives their desire to be baptized. I'll say it again, baptism doesn't save a person, baptism is what saved people do. The first cause, and the gift of grace is already possessed at the point a person believes. In fact, that person immediately possesses eternal life when they believe.

1 Peter 3:21 says differently.

reply to post by truejew


I suggest reading John. It declares that people who believe already possess eternal life. Baptism is great, I'm not diminishing it's significance in a believer's life. Bit it doesn't give a person saving faith. It's something people that already have faith do.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

I suggest reading John. It declares that people who believe already possess eternal life. Baptism is great, I'm not diminishing it's significance in a believer's life. Bit it doesn't give a person saving faith. It's something people that already have faith do.

The New Testament is clear, water baptism is a necessary act of faith, just like repentance is.