Atheism vs. God-Belief (the final debate).

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

Somewhat petulant though, you're right, so it's not bad, somewhat funny, but if he thinks he's the ultimate joker I'm pretty sure he's sadly mistaken.

Yes, the joke is out there somewhere, in the eyes I think; elbows grounded on the table. There seems to be some longing for something happening which might explain the expression, plaintif maybe? questioning always, just needing an answer for the monogrammed hat (was it worth the price of purchase)?

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
needing an answer for the monogrammed hat (was it worth the price of purchase)?

I think it was stolen.

Ok...back on topic.. (ah HEM!)

In preparation for Part Two of my argument for an infinitely intelligent, fully informed Creative Agency as a first/last cause or Alpha and Omega of existence, I refer you to the most recent moon thread Moon 2013-03-21 on pages two and three where I've just finished going a bit luney or over the moon you might say, or maybe not.. that's the scary part it might all be right, which leaves can leave a person utterly gobsmacked and stupified at the implications.. an allegory.. a sign embedded into the creation, like a marker, like a signature even as a "wink and a nod"..


Things that make ya go "hmmmmm".

More music..

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Are you spamming the thread with Youtube videos? I'd appreciate it if you would quit that.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

No more. Sorry.



Next it would have been something from the band Rush.. oh well.

And thus, the "final debate" comes to an anticlimactic close. Hardly impressive, really. But do you know what is impressive? Stupidity. I think I read somewhere that mankind's potential for greatness is only equaled by its potential for idiocy...

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Is that the best you can do - care to comment or clarify what you mean? Thanks.

Just call the other guy stupid and wash your hands, is that it?

How sad, and FUNNY!

So NAM, what is the eta on the rest of Part 2? Or should I just check out the Canuck's schedule?

Those were cool facts about the moon.

reply to post by bb23108

Part One was about a fully informed, infinitely intelligent eternal Godhead as described, I might add, by some of the most intelligent men in the world today (Laszlo and Haisch), whereas Part Two, in the exposition of the Moon-Earth-Sun configuration - points to a type of fingerprint or signature of the Godhead as Creative Agency, intended, in the fullness of time and history, for our own recognition as self aware observers at this epoch in Earth's evolutionary history. In other words that such a configuration it's no mere chance coincidence or "accident" but has been designed with super high precision (particularly when we consider the depth and breadth of the first/last cause or causes and effect in Cosmic history) or what I call superintelligent design, in favor of life including the evolution of the Human Being as a self aware sentient observer who's awareness and sacred geometrical form represents, like the moon does the sun (as allegory) a perfect reflection of the Godhead itself, placing man, not as a tiny speck of a mere thing on a world in the cosmic outback, but standing as it were at the very right hand of or next to the Godhead itself (allegorically) - by design (with intent).

And where else can a bipedal, ten fingered self aware sentient observer look up and see (with a filter) their single, giant moon (by compare to the host planet) perfectly eclipse their sun? Yes, it's an unknown I realize but this is offered merely to try to give you a sense of the magnitude of the "coincidence" of perfect eclipse.

It's not just the strange moon facts that must be considered but the very framing of the Moon-Earth-Sun cosmological configuration itself and the question of whether it contains any meaning and significance for the human being as observer, or not (i.e.: as a pure coincidence and nothing more).

I do not believe that it can be dismissed as irrelevant either as mere coincidence or by the Strong Anthropic Principal. Therein lies the crux of my argument for Superintelligent Design by the infinitely intelligent Godhead as Creative Agency behind the Moon-Earth-Sun configuration and thus the solar system and galaxy and galaxies, by extention.

What I'm saying it that quite obviously it's significant and thus meaningful, purposeful, and yes even intentional and no mere coincidence.

For more, see my posts on pages two and three of the thread Moon 2013-03-21 (I could re-post it all here but what's the point).

I invite replies from one and all but especially from the other side of this debate (from atheists) including anyone who has tried to label me as stupid for putting forth this argument/position.

Best Regards,

NAM

P.S. The only additional data will be extraordinary moon facts in regards to this extraordinary relationship between the moon earth and sun, including things like measurement and geometrical integers indicating that the moon's geometrical configuration and orbit is founded on base-10 arithmetic, things along those lines.
The main thrust and crux of the argument however has already been made. Thank you for your participation in the final debate.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by bb23108

 

Part One was about a fully informed, infinitely intelligent eternal Godhead as described, I might add, by some of the most intelligent men in the world today (Laszlo and Haisch), whereas Part Two, in the exposition of the Moon-Earth-Sun configuration - points to a type of fingerprint or signature of the Godhead as Creative Agency, intended, in the fullness of time and history, for our own recognition as self aware observers at this epoch in Earth's evolutionary history. In other words that such a configuration it's no mere chance coincidence or "accident" but has been designed with super high precision (particularly when we consider the depth and breadth of the first/last cause or causes and effect in Cosmic history) or what I call superintelligent design, in favor of life including the evolution of the Human Being as a self aware sentient observer who's awareness and sacred geometrical form represents, like the moon does the sun (as allegory) a perfect reflection of the Godhead itself, placing man, not as a tiny speck of a mere thing on a world in the cosmic outback, but standing as it were at the very right hand of or next to the Godhead itself (allegorically) - by design (with intent).

The moon is 400 times smaller than the sun. The Sun is about 400 times farther from the Earth than the moon and so appears to be the same size from earth observance this balance could not have been accidental . Whether one can concieve of a 'self aware universe' 'intellegent design' or 'godhead' Something is attempting to describe itself to the Human, why? Because that creation is the only specie to be able to decipher it, acknowelege its beingness and in so doing will validate ITS own existance (the moon is of a Jupiter gaseous origin) and is a collector of human memory which reflects back to earth all human emotional activity. I find it odd that few know there are actually 13 constellations, 12 houses of the Zodiac, 13 new moons each year. The 13 number is protected, because were we to embrace it (13) rather than traditional 12 (the horizontal 6 above 6 below) sacred geometry could reach its full exponencial of creativity.

NewAgeMan
And where else can a bipedal, ten fingered self aware sentient observer look up and see (with a filter) their single, giant moon (by compare to the host planet) perfectly eclipse their sun? Yes, it's an unknown I realize but this is offered merely to try to give you a sense of the magnitude of the "coincidence" of perfect eclipse.
It's not just the strange moon facts that must be considered but the very framing of the Moon-Earth-Sun cosmological configuration itself and the question of whether it contains any meaning and significance for the human being as observer, or not (i.e.: as a pure coincidence and nothing more).

I would consider this as being the BIGGEST BILLBOARD ERECTED EVER by Clear Channel (note the irony of name) to announce "Hey There, How Goes It Humans, next gas 53 miles".

reply to post by vethumanbeing

The moon is actually made for the most part of the same mantal material as that of Earth (but from beneath the forming crust) at approximately the same distance from the sun (this has been proven by chemical analysis), but it appears to have unusual properties in it's composition, (aside from it's geometrical and behavioral characteristics) very unusual properties as relayed in Strange Moon Facts including the evidence that the moon may be a billion years older than the Earth itself.

The moon is the Rosetta stone of the planets." —Robert Jastrow First Chairman, NASA Lunar Exploration Committee

"The moon is the mother of the universe." ~ Ancient Egyptian saying.

"A natural satellite cannot be a hollow object."
~ Carl Sagan’s treatise, "Intelligent Life in the Universe"

(below) from the other thread to highlight another very interesting factoid about the moon and it's relationship to early earth evolution and the evolution of life itself - for all we know it contained the "program" for DNA evolution as some sort of "seed of life".. by intentional formative causation in anticipation of life, even and especially present moment life on earth (no accident). It's like the womb of creation and the cornerstone of the foundation of our entire solar system, vethumanbeing you are right in that regard, that the moon is like the Rosetta Stone of the planets, because of it's relationship to the Earth-Moon-Sun system as the basis of life and evolution.

And here we have in effect what amounts to the Creative Agency's "wink and a nod" the implication of which is that we are partners with God in eternity by design. Who the heck knows how God could possibly know in advance something of such absolutely infinite detail and precision like to the nth degree or well beyond the moon and back again and what does it matter now that we're here or now that we've "made it" this far..!

It can leave us utterly gobsmacked (not Godsmacked as God is loving generous and kind) and "agog", and here it was all for US all along! LOL That's funny (facepalm!).

Therefore be of good cheer and do not be afraid nor let your hearts be troubled little ones for it greatly pleased the father (first father of creation ie: God) to share his eternal kingdom of light, life and love with ALL his chidlren!" (paraphrased slightly).

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by Overtime
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Thanks for making me wonder about the moons origins, I hadn't considered it for a while but I am very skeptical a bunch of rocks from a planet collision with Earth happened to collect at that exact distance to make all that possible.

Because the moon in early earth history was much closer to the Earth (it's still moving away at about 3cm/yr)

Early Earth's

Ocean Tides..

Moved far far inland, with salt water breaking up molecular re-combinations on a continual basis, thus driving a rapid process of evolution early in earth's history.

It is only now in Earth history, however, when man has fully evolved and is capable of observation, that the moon perfectly eclipses the sun.

So the moon is like a machine or a program of sorts running a program (whether by coincidence or not) in favor of the evolution of life on earth, in it's relationship to the Earth, as well as the sun and by extension the planets.

The moon is the Rosetta stone of the planets."
—Robert Jastrow
First Chairman, NASA Lunar Exploration Committee

"The moon is the mother of the universe."
~ Ancient Egyptian saying.

In Carl Sagan’s treatise, Intelligent Life in the Universe, the famous astronomer stated, "A natural satellite cannot be a hollow object."

Strange Moon Facts

Also from the other thread and then edited a bit

------------------

So continuing with the rather more "conspiratorial" aspect of the moon let us say (however true).

Moon is Astro-engineered Intelligently Designed Object

The moon really is the strangest object in the known universe. No other moon in the entire solar system operates like our moon does and I'm not referring to tidal locking (same face to the host planet which occurs on 30 some other other moons). So it's unique as far as our solar system goes, this relationship not only between the planet and it's moon but also between the host planet moon AND sun. It's really either a freak coincidence or the most extraordinary fact of human existence and evolution - &/or, we were MEANT to see it and recognize it's significance (moon as perfect reflection of sun, governing the night, yet precisely the same apparent circumference and diameter). That's just nuts, when we start to consider first last causes, but there it is. It's either meaningful and significant or, it is not and was either intended for us to notice or it was "just an accident". LOL That's freaky...

Moon-seed (of life) by Super-intelligent Design.



from the thread..

Contest with prize by me (there are further posts on it as the thread ensued and many very interesting ideas to say the least).

for the first truly original idea. I won! (and no it wasn't my contest) and I gave away all my stars at the end so it wasn't to win but only to discover and share info.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
This isn't neccessarily philosophical, but I'd like to say this

There is scientific evidence that our moon, Luna, is an astroengineered object which was responsible for seeding life here on earth and which formed the cornerstone of our solar system and by extension, the galaxy, a feat of precision engineering that was accomplished approx 4.5 billion to 5.5 years ago and contained, imbedded in the design, already from its inception, with intent, the evolution of mankind.


In terms of philosophy, this would involve the idea that there is proof of superintelligent design in the formation of the human species within the unique geometric configuration and relationship between the earth, moon and sun.

Here's a starter piece highlighting only a fragment of the evidence to support this idea.

[snip vid already presented]

Philosophically, what I'm describing here then would be a new position, based on empirical data, which would refute or undermine the validity of an argument called "The Strong Anthropic Principal" which suggests that the data is in effect, meaningless, if only because if it were any different than what it is, we wouldn't be here in the first place to describe it ie: that it's "no big deal" because if it were any other way then there wouldn't be anything now would there.. - a proposition and argument which is the least "scientific" in orientation let's just say, and an absurd proposition if the data was meaningful or significant because it IS here to begin with (that's better).

Does it say anything though, the creation that IS there (see moon earth sun configuration)? And if so what precisely is the message that we're supposed to "get" as an embedded signature of sorts like a wink and a nod from none other than the creator himself, directed towards us as earth-based observers at this precise moment in earth and human evolution (when the moon perfectly reflects (as the light of the night) and perfectly eclipses, the sun). Not only that but at opposite solstices the moon rises at points equidistant at E/W of due north to that of the sun, mimicking the sun on an annual and therefore on a monthly basis as if tracking and imitating the sun. But the moon rotates the earth. This is and can only be significant or meaningful to an earth based, sentient observer!

I think it's funny. It makes me want to burst out laughing or crying or SOMEthing..

It's not insignificant. That's the thing..

The "Strong Anthropic Principal" is confounded. That's funny. imho.

Best Regards,

NAM



P.S. And no I'm not "loony" tunes. The data checks out.

It's up to each person to decide on just what kind of coincidence that would be in either case.

I'd rather believe that instead of leaving it up to chance that some sort of ancient moon-seed tech was used by whoever (might as well be God) who inserted it into the accretion disks of the Milky Way galaxy formation. "tested stones", "cornerstones" for a sure foundation. Increases the probability for life in our galaxy because if it can be done once (which it has) "you" (as God) would do it as many times as feasibly possible in the form of little assists wherever possible to create living worlds. If made by ancient ANCIENT aliens the timeframe is too long and the cause and effect framework (the galaxy) too large (unless the moon seeds are planted during galaxy formation) but who knows what lurks in a multiverse and maybe for some "time" as we think of it doesn't exist and sending out a pod of moons in formation (they might be like miniature black holes whatever) over 15 BILLION years ago, is "no biggie".

God, Aliens, who cares either way it would be pretty awesome to seriously consider - Intelligent Design. I think the data suggests that it MUST be seriously considered.


"It was the stone that was rejected by the builders that became the keystone."..? (could you imagine?!) "God" like the real God is one step ahead of EVERYONE right from the get go..wouldn't that be funny, builders didn't want or need their precious stones anymore (while terraforming maybe..) ie: they were left behind so God, the real God takes their unwanted, leftover "stones" and turns them into THIS - look around!

Therefore thus saith the Lord God: “Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; he that believeth (trusts in, relies on, and adheres to that Stone) shall not hasten away [in sudden panic].

Isaiah 28:16

Things that make ME go "hmmmm" at the very least, but I figured it was worth sharing this theory and info for whatever it's worth.

Thanks OP and let me take this opportunity to thank GOD for the moon without which life as we know it would not exist.

NAM

Strange Moon Facts

I just think it's sooo trippy this concept and you can't run away from it only investigate it and look into it more and more with increasing curiosity dare I say it - with an inkling...

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

It's not insignificant. That's the thing..

And what makes it significant is that we can see it with our own eyes and that we are and were included in the creation and thus are given an "inheritance" shared from before the very foundation of the earth (by anticipation) for the reason and purpose to SHARE with love everything, and nothing excluded not even ourselves as we are (however "deformed"). That's crazy, super funny and a really interesting predicament imho.

Or, it's a meaningless purposeless random accidental occurance, without any meaning or significance whatsoever. (atheist argument or position in opposition to the concept of by-design of infinitely intelligent Creative Agency).

YOU be the judge.




Cheers,

NAM

conjioned from two other places - relavant to this inquiry.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Re: Man's evolved relation to the eternal, cosmological Godhead

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Jesus Christ is the Phi Ratio Son of God

The Golden Proportion is analogous to God’s relationship to creation

The Golden Section, or Phi, found throughout nature, also applies in understanding the relationship of God to Creation. In the golden section, we see that there is only one way to divide a line so that its parts are in proportion to, or in the image of, the whole:

The ratio of the larger section (B) to the whole line (A) is the same as the ratio as the smaller section (C) to the large section (B):

Only “tri-viding” the whole preserves the relationship to the whole
And so it is with our understanding of God, that we are created in His image. Not by dividing the whole, but only by tri-viding the whole does each piece retain its unique relationship to the whole. Only here do we see three that are two that are one.

The Book of John begins with these words that capture the essence of this:

In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

Jesus, in John 14:9, expressed a similar thought:

Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.


Conclusion:

The human Jesus (the Son of Man) is to the divine Jesus (the Son of God) as the divine Jesus (the Son of God) is to God (the Father or whole).

www.goldennumber.net...

I purport, that during the "lost years" Jesus was indoctrinated into just about all the streams of philosophy and thought and spiritual tradition, without forsaking his Jewish heritage, which was at the core of his system of thinking and beliefs, which would have included:

Greek
Egyptian (Pythagoras)
Toaism and Buddhism
Zoroastrian (which emphasized the incompatibility of good and evil)
Mithriasm
Hindu
Jewish Mysticism (Tree of Life)
etc.

On Buddhist thought, he repudiated it's rather nihilistic conclusion, when he said

"What does it profit a man to gain the WHOLE world, but lose his own soul." (character, passion ie: desire, selfhood)

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

It is only now in Earth history, however, when man has fully evolved and is capable of observation, that the moon perfectly eclipses the sun.

This fact, that the moon perfectly eclipses the sun while being eclipsed by the shadow of the earth could be seen by man not only as evidence of super-intelligent design pointing to him somehow, but as an allegory of man's relationship to the creator (first father of creation) as the reflected light. It is one, as a meaningful symbolic allegory, that I am convinced Jesus of Nazareth made use of, and then even went ahead and employed during his "great work" where the darkness at midday was a later error because of confusion surrounding the idea of a lunar eclipse which DID occur on Passover Preparation Day (in accordance with the lunar calendar) at about the right time (33AD), and as the only one visible from Jerusalem during the reign of Pontias Pilate. It appeared already rising in the beginning state of a lunar eclipse ie: blood red moon. It would therefore be a useful tool if you wanted to counfound your enemies (how did he KNOW?!). To clarify, when it rose mid afternoon, already moving into eclipse Jesus was already on the cross. So I've integrated it into my avatar.

Here I'll let this guy tell the story (trust me it's a must see, doesn't matter what you "believe" it's got to be of interest - lunar eclipse at the crucifixion)

Happy Easter everyone! (next Friday - it this theory is correct it's the actual annual celebration i.e.: not like Christmas).

NAM

Full moon - a life fully lived.. (not a half life..).

Draw near.. a sign.

Screw it it's my thread and just one more song isn't going to kill anyone if you don't like it just skip over. Otherwise it's a very interesting piece that I thought you might enjoy.

There's got to be SOMEthing to do here at the end of time.


"And the meek shall inherit the Earth."

Our world, and solar system then is a model of creation and of life in the universe by the Superintelligent Design of the Creative Agency, regardless of what's "out there" (does God have more "tricks up his sleeve"? surely).

But here is where it gets really funky where there's a fingerprint or a signature of the Godhead, as if this place is a first/last cause in the formative causation, regardless of the timespans and creative processes involved where perhaps it may be said that "the first shall be last and last, first". The implications of this for man's true understanding of his place in the creation as a created being or child of God are utterly astounding, particularly if the very phenomenon of consciousness itself isn't bottom up as an epiphomenon of matter but top down, as part of a tangled hierarchy who's first/last cause is consciousness itself whereby consciousness and not matter is primary.

So just when you thought it was starting to get really trippy, it goes right off the map into the domain of a non-local holographic cosmic consciousness, making possible as an intelligent subtraction from the absolute eternal infinite God relative and towards which everything is also evolving, our own experience, including our own growth and evolution as children of a loving God as we stand on the very unconditioned ground of all being and becoming next to or at the right hand of God himself who is also Christ.

Something about it urges us or calls us into an unfathomable relationship with God in partnership whereby God would have it no other way than that upon re-discovery of our true nature that we in freedom lay down the very foundation of heaven on earth, with ignorance itself being the only thing standing in the way of love's reason and logic, who's very rock of ages is the undeniable fact of our own existence and prior inclusion by intent and therefore with love and generosity, yes even by anticipation (how did he KNOW?!!!).

God Bless you (it's already happening by virtue of your inclusion),

NAM.

And since we're in the process of Paradigm Shifting, let's take a look at the leading edge of the tip of the evolutionary process by which everything that has ever happened is being "recorded" in the very quantum vacuum of space aka Zero Point Field, Akashic Field, Record or Chronicles) as a vortex trail of the occurrence of the process of life, even now to this very day (sun rising), and night (moon rising).